Anyone make it through ALL of Classical Conversations??

[michaeljenn]

I am wondering if anyone here has had a child who has spent time in Foundations, Essentials, and ALL of the Challenge levels.  I am seriously considering joining CC, but I need to hear from others who have gone before me.  It "looks" good on paper, but I am wanting to know what it is like in "real life"!!   Does this program prepare adequately for college ect.... or is it just a big waste of time with a hefty price tag.  I like the thought of memorizing the facts, as I think that can come in handy in the future. But is it really??? So much confusion in my head.

 

I DO like the community aspect of it.   We are a part of a co-op right now, but the classes are not academic at all, and part of me feels like if I am going to take a day away from being home, then I want it to be academic.   So I thought CC may be the route to go.

 

Any advice, insight, unpopular opinions are welcome;)

[G5052]

In your situation, I'd look at it as something year-to-year, especially if you are starting with Foundations/Essentials.

 

We did it for seven years, and I was happy with it most of the way.  My oldest went through Challenge I, and my younger one through Challenge A.  They are in 10th and 12th grade now.

 

The first thing to note is that every community is a little different.  Don't look at just the curriculum, you also need to consider whether you fit with the group as a whole.

 

The first campus we were with was excellent academically, but we didn't fit as well with the people in terms of lifestyle choices. That said, I made friends that I still keep in touch with, and I have no regrets about those years (just Foundations and Essentials there). We were very tight financially then, and being in CC meant no vacation and no other outside activities.  At times I was running the van on almost empty to get there and back, waiting for pay day.  This was a group that generally took several big vacations a year and who had their kids in multiple activities. Frankly that sometimes got us down.  The last year that we were there both of mine felt like they really didn't have close friends there either.  I had friends, but they really didn't and were very unhappy by the end of the year.

 

We then had to change campuses to get Challenge A anyway.  We were happy there with Foundations/Essentials and Challenge A, but I was less happy with Challenge B and I.  That group was not academically oriented, and I had to outsource Latin in order to get the level of instruction I wanted.  By about halfway through Challenge I, I had decided that a custom curriculum for high school where I outsourced a few classes to specialist teachers was going to be better for us.  At times my kid was the only one in the class that had done all of the assignments, and I had to deal with a lot of negative peer pressure because the majority of the parents were OK with their kid skipping entire subjects and not doing assignments.  Because CC puts the parent in charge of how much or how little they do, if you get parents who don't monitor and want them to do the majority of the work, you may get what we did.

 

Now I'm paying about the same price as we paid for CC, but am outsourcing a few subjects each for my two.  I also like being home 5 days a week.  They like classes for history/lit because of the discussion, and we outsource Latin and Spanish.  One does a local history/lit class, and the other does outline history/lit.  They both do languages online.  I'm very pleased with the quality of instruction and the positive peer pressure in these classes.  Frankly I should have done this instead of Challenge I with my oldest, but lessons learned.  I also like having some classes with deadlines and structure, and others that we can pace ourselves.  My goal with Latin was to get them to a "4" or "5" in AP Latin and/or a 700+ on the Latin SAT II, and frankly we would have not got there with CC's Latin.  And we've achieved that as well with one, and the other is on track.

 

HTH!

[michaeljenn]

Thank you so much for your response!!  It helped so much.  My thought was to enroll them in Veritas Press classes later as well.  I may do Foundations and then just take it a year at a time.  I am not sure if I want CC to be in complete charge of the High School years... hmm

[G5052]

Thank you so much for your response!!  It helped so much.  My thought was to enroll them in Veritas Press classes later as well.  I may do Foundations and then just take it a year at a time.  I am not sure if I want CC to be in complete charge of the High School years... hmm

 

Yes, it seems to work best if you take it as it is, all six seminars.  They used to allow more mix-and-match than they do now as well.  Now you have to stay with your group regardless.

 

I wondered about the social issue, but mine say they haven't really missed it.

[momacacia]

We only made it through the 3 Foundations cycles with oldest and she did memory master twice. I'm so glad we did it. We continue to review the materials and she pulls particularly the history out when we discuss and come across topics in other materials. I visited a private classical school a while ago at the high school level and I can very much see where the history memory work would be beneficial. We've also found the math memory work useful.

 

That said, I won't start my second at this age. I think 6, going on 7, is plenty early to begin--or even later if you only care about gettin through one cycle with challenge. We started Tqlestry last spring and I am not going to run Tapestry and CC simultaneously. "Losing" 5 hours a week of my time was just too much when we could do memory work at lunchtime as a family a couple days a week and get the same results.

 

We have no Challenge experience. I have opinions, but not experience. ;)

[Mrs Twain]

We are just doing foundations, and that is it. Once my kids get to 7th grade, we will do other programs and classes for school. Foundations is an appropriate name. It provides a wonderful foundation.

 

You can decide as you go if higher levels of CC would be a good fit or not. You definitely don't need to have your entire high school plan mapped out before you join CC.

[fourisenough]

CC has been great for us for two years of Foundations & Essentials. We'll likely do a third next year, so we will have completed all three cycles. We won't continue on into the Challenge program, though. I don't find the math/science to be a fit, and my daughter misses the age cut-off by about one month, so she would be held back a year, plus she is academically accelerated (bad combo for a bright/motivated learner).

 

Not sure how old your kids are, but for us CC works very well 3rd/4th-5th/6th grades. My youngest daughter did it at age 4 for one year and it was NOT a fit. This year she stays home with grandma on CC days. I'm not sure whether I'll have her join us next year or not.

 

Having older girls in high school, I can see how Foundations/Essentials is laying the groundwork for success in the future. So much of the content will be helpful to know, but even more importantly, the skills, once mastered, will last a lifetime.

[Sahamamama]

"Losing" 5 hours a week of my time was just too much when we could do memory work at lunchtime as a family a couple days a week and get the same results.

 

Not to derail, but do you think it would be possible for a motivated family to "do CC" at home? That is, to master the material, without paying for and attending classes? We have enough community. I'd rather have time at home. But mastering the material does have appeal at times.

[fourisenough]

Not to derail, but do you think it would be possible for a motivated family to "do CC" at home? That is, to master the material, without paying for and attending classes? We have enough community. I'd rather have time at home. But mastering the material does have appeal at times.

I consider myself motivated, but I don't think we would be successful mastering the material at home without the accountability if a group.

[momacacia]

Not to derail, but do you think it would be possible for a motivated family to "do CC" at home? That is, to master the material, without paying for and attending classes? We have enough community. I'd rather have time at home. But mastering the material does have appeal at times.

I think so, yes, but I personally really needed one year in CC to see how it was really supposed to work. I was also a less experienced homeschool mom at the time, so I'm sure that would make a difference as well. I fully expect dd#2 to "memory master" at home with me and DH, starting when she is 7 or 8. Until then, she will be exposed to all the review I keep up with #1.

 

I really feel like the value of Foundations is in the a Memory Master. I know there are other things and this is also personal opinion, but the take away educationally of CC at that stage is to pu the names/dates/places later on at the dialectic/logic level. It's the peg. That can be done at home for a motivated family.

 

If I were that motivated family ;), I'd put my money into a month or two of CC's online forum subscription and rip a CD or mp3s of the songs (Amy joy Tofte )does nice ones and any other materials on there per subject weeks that you think your kids would enjoy as helps for learning the material. You'd need to do this for all three cycles each year, because I think (but am not sure ) that they only out one year of supplemental material up at a time on the forums.

 

That's how I'd "hack" Foundations. ;)

[Doodlebug]

This is our fifth year in Classical Conversations and my experience is limited to Foundations.  

 

I think learning about the Challenge and Essentials programs gave me an appreciation for what Foundations attempts to do. That context helped me as I struggled with the concept of memory work, and, it lent credibility to the program.  That got me over the "should I?" hump and into, "Let's try it."  Once I was on board philosophically, it became a yearly assessment of fit.  

 

Community fit is important.  But really, once you've visited various campuses and have a feel for the vibe at each location, the majority of your questions won't be satisfied either way until you jump in.  I wish that were different, especially for those with several children for whom the risk is significant financially.  I have friends who loved it on paper and disliked it in practice.  Me, I jumped in five years ago and continue to marvel every year at how something so simple can grow and change according to the questions of the child.

 

That being said, we will likely be leaving Foundations next year.  Five years of a three year memory work cycle has led to a touch of apathy in DS.  He knows the stuff, and it has made the five hour class increasingly harder to endure -- as fun as his tutor makes it, it's still old hat.  And that's the beauty of homeschooling!  We get to say "That was fun," or not, and move on!

 

Best of luck!!!

 

Stella

 

 

 

 

[Southern Ivy]

This is our fifth year in Classical Conversations and my experience is limited to Foundations.  

 

That being said, we will likely be leaving Foundations next year.  Five years of a three year memory work cycle has led to a touch of apathy in DS.  He knows the stuff, and it has made the five hour class increasingly harder to endure -- as fun as his tutor makes it, it's still old hat.  And that's the beauty of homeschooling!  We get to say "That was fun," or not, and move on!

 

Best of luck!!!

 

Stella

May I ask why you've done 5 years instead of just the 3 years? Did you not move up to Essentials? 

[Doodlebug]

May I ask why you've done 5 years instead of just the 3 years? Did you not move up to Essentials? 

 

The cycles are to be repeated.  Children who start at age 5 or 6, will be exposed to roughly 3 full repetitions of the 3 year cycle, with Essentials added on around 4th grade.

 

We don't move into Essentials until next year, but even then, the idea is that you continue doing the Foundations cycles until Challenge levels.  This is where we are departing from the script a bit.  We will pursue Essentials at our CC community, but will drop doing the Foundations program there in favor of reviewing it at home.  

 

Stella

[Southern Ivy]

The cycles are to be repeated.  Children who start at age 5 or 6, will be exposed to roughly 3 full repetitions of the 3 year cycle, with Essentials added on around 4th grade.

 

We don't move into Essentials until next year, but even then, the idea is that you continue doing the Foundations cycles until Challenge levels.  This is where we are departing from the script a bit.  We will pursue Essentials at our CC community, but will drop doing the Foundations program there in favor of reviewing it at home.  

 

Stella

 

Good to know. I misunderstood about the cycles. I guess I thought they only went through them once.  

Thanks! 

[Guest 3muggleheads]

Hi, just wanted to share my experience:

 

 

My daughter is in Challenge 1 except for Latin where she joins Challenge A. There was a meeting with Challenge 1 parents and then the directors of Challenge 1 and Challenge A before the Fall session and parents and then directors agreed upon a schedule. We are now in week 12 and the schedule for Latin continues to change, sometimes 9:40, 9:45, 9:35, 9:30, etc.  Week 1 it was late, week 2 it was early. I spoke with the Tutor about this, even giving a suggestion about solving it and the Tutor told me that she wasn't in charge and to speak with the director; which I did (she tutors the class right before Latin and sits in the class). The problem: my daughter is left out when she is not told when class begins (we have also had to walk out of the class when it runs past the schedule because she needs to keep up with Challenge 1 schedule). For my daughter it has been confusing and discouraging. The solution I suggested: send one of the students, possibly the director's son, over to my daughter's class (right next door in a trailer, literally, open the door between the two rooms – although that has changed several times – as the director took several weeks to decide where to meet leaving me and my daughter to figure out where in the church building or trailer they were meeting). The director said no, not her son, but rather she would let us know when Latin was to begin. The problem continued, and I mentioned it again.  The Challenge 1 director also spoke with the Challenge A director. The problem continued and the Challenge 1 director met with the Challenge A director to discuss the schedule again. The problem continued. Apparently there was a meeting with the Challenge A director and parents to which I was not invited – I think all classes were talked about, not just Latin. When there was another issue in the Latin class and the director set a meeting, to which I was invited, I again mentioned the problem and again confirmed the start time of the class. The next week, the director finally let us know that Latin had just started.  Now, again, this week, my daughter and I walked into the Latin class, and we had already missed the first 10 minutes. I have again said something to both of them. The Challenge 1 director, who I spoke with again right after that said we just need to talk about it. Really? Seems like I've talked enough and even gave the solution week 2. Later on, the tutor came up to me and apologized and said it will never happen again and that she feels bad and understands. My question....why isn't the director, who caused this problem, even being the person who suggested CC to me and suggested my daughter take Latin with Challenge 1 saying anything to me or doing anything but rather the tutor is now trying to solve the problem.  The the tutor is the one who originally told me to talk to the director.  I thought CC was to be encouraging and cooperative. Rather, my daughter has been discouraged and has missed out on Latin lessons. It has been confusing for her, and me, and with this being our first year in CC, its been a lot to grasp. Not that we are not up to challenging work, we just have no idea when Latin class starts (or ends). 

[momacacia]

 We will pursue Essentials at our CC community, but will drop doing the Foundations program there in favor of reviewing it at home.  

 

Stella

My understanding is that you *have* to do the Foundation program in order to be in Essentials, in any given year. I don't think you can just do Essentials in the afternoon (at least at our area communities) and skip the morning Foundations program.

[Doodlebug]

My understanding is that you *have* to do the Foundation program in order to be in Essentials, in any given year. I don't think you can just do Essentials in the afternoon (at least at our area communities) and skip the morning Foundations program.

Thankfully, I know families doing it.

 

But I do remember when Essentials meant both Foundations and Essentials--it was spelled out that way on registration forms and the tuition reflected it. Registration forms now present Essentials and its tuition separately from Foundations, which makes for a much friendlier number (1/2 of what it was). While the formal recommendation is to do both programs, it seems the contract now grants families/ directors the option.

 

Sorry, OP for slight topic derail.

 

Stella

[Omma]

3muggleheads:

 

Actually, I am amazed that CC even gave you the option to swap out Latin classes.  I can understand your dilemma, though, because you need the start and stop times to match perfectly so that you get all of the Latin class without missing any other class.  One solution would be if Latin could be offered first thing in the day, or first subject after lunch, in both Challenge I and Challenge A.

 

We have one dc in Ch. B and one in Ch. A this year.  Henle Latin is pretty tough if you don't have a Latin background, and they are moving at double the pace this year in Ch. B than they did last year in Ch. A.  We do have one dc in my ds's Ch. B class who never had Latin or Ch. A, and I give her a lot of credit for how she is plugging along in a difficult course.  I am so thankful, though, that we started out in Ch. A with CC as I think my ds would have given up by now if he had to work at double speed when he had never had Latin before.  I also think a lot depends on how you are keeping up with Latin yourself.  My take is that the parent really needs to do the Latin lessons right along with the dc in order to be able to help them during the week with their daily homework.

 

How do you like the rest of Challenge I, BTW?

 

We are blessed at our CC campus in having what I consider to be really great tutors.  My dd's Ch. A tutor this year is quite young, but she has gone through Challenge 3 herself and knows exactly what the dc need to know to succeed and I appreciate that.  Plus it really helps to have everyone in the class fully participating in all the assignments in order to have great 'conversations' in class (isn't that what it is all about with classical 'conversations'?)! 

 

We also have been blessed with using the Lost Tools of Writing from the beginning.  I think this course has really helped my ds to know how to set up a paper with a thesis and persuasive arguments, plus he gets to hear how others have set up their papers each week.  It's been a great experience for us.  Logic has been tough (as it is our first exposure to it), but we likely would have never tackled it at home since I, as the home educator, never had Logic in school and I really needed to sit in on his logic classes on campus so I'd even have a prayer of understanding this course (although I appreciate how my dc can work so independently on all their studies at home now).

 

Thus, I would say that we like the format of having 'classical conversations' with classmates one day a week and having a tutor instruct in classes that I would never have felt comfortable leading at home (such as Logic, Latin and even the Lost Tools of Writing).  But now I also am learning something, as I am LOVING Latin nowadays, myself!!!  Having deadlines each week really keeps us all accountable to keep moving forward.  I could go on and on, but I'm hoping to hear others' feedback here, too!

 

Blessings,

Brenda

[Brenda in FL]

We are up to Challenge II with the oldest. You should check with Classical Conversations themselves for articles and statistics on students that have graduated nod gone on to college after completing all the Challenges. I know that I have seen articles on that topic.

 

I think starting when your oldest is at 3rd or 4th grade is ideal. I do see where my 11 year old, who is on his 5th year in Foundations is ready to move on. My oldest had one one year of Foundations and Essentials. I tutor Esentials, and. I see that the 3 year cycle approach really,works for these students and parents.

 

I am surprised about the Latin scenario described by an earlier poster. Latin is actually one of those seminars like math where a student can work at their own pace, and be getting a preview or review of concepts during seminar time. The key is that the parent has to take on that role of teacher and not rely on the tutor. The tutor has them for only 30 hours of classroom instruction per year, the parent must oversee their student's progress at home. My daughter has gotten behind, but we are using a Catholic homeschool syllabus to be sure that we will successfully complete the course even if not on the same CC schedule. Being a bit behind has not hindered her participation or understanding of topics in class. I hope that might encourage some that are intimidated by the latin portion.

 

Back to the OP, we are a family for whom CC is working effectively. We have some of the best challenge directors on our campus, and the families are committed to the Classical approach. I hope that you will have a similar experience if you opt with CC!

[G5052]

My understanding is that you *have* to do the Foundation program in order to be in Essentials, in any given year. I don't think you can just do Essentials in the afternoon (at least at our area communities) and skip the morning Foundations program.

 

We've been out of the program for several years now, but that was never the policy at either of the campuses we were involved in.  There were always students who came for just Essentials.

[AmyinMD]

We are in our 4th year of Classical Conversations.  There are some things I really like about it and some things I don't like.  Both of my teens started with Challenge A and never did any Foundations or Essentials but my 14 year old will likely go all the way through Challenge 4.  My 16 yo is in Challenge 2 and it is probably her last year.  She will be a senior next year and wants to take community college classes.  She hasn't really had time with all of the CC work she has to do.  My 14 yo is in 9th grade and she is in a larger class (11 kids) and most of them are long time members that plan to go all the way through.  The kids in her class are really close and communicate a lot outside of class.

 

I think a lot depends on the community.  Ours has a lot of very dedicated tutors and families.  We haven't run into the issue of students at Challenge not turning work in.   Sometimes parents do cut certain assignments for kids but I think it is rarely done in our community.  The tutors at our Challenge community check the kids work each week and both of mine are really good about getting everything done.  I really don't need to check things over they are really good about it.  My 16 yo daughter has set up a Latin study group and it is the third year that she has organized it.  About half her class meets at the library on Friday afternoons to work on their Latin homework together.  My 14 yo dd will frequently meet up with classmates during Foundations (our Foundations group and Challenge group meet on separate days- neither has a church large enough to accommodate the groups to meet together)

 

I dislike that I have lost flexibility with what my kids study.  What CC picks is not always what I would necessarily pick.  We have been the most happy with the literature, debate, and Latin.  I like that they can discuss literature and other topics with their peers.  We do not use Saxon math.  I also really don't like the science especially for A and B.  If my younger children do Challenge we will opt out for the science.  

 

My 10 yo twins are on their third cycle of Foundations and while I do like it I'm not sure I can imagine going through the cycles again.  I'm not sure if I will have them do Foundations next year or not.  It gets expensive for multiple children and I'm not really sure the cost is worth it when much of the material is repeated.   They can sing the timeline song in their sleep at this point but that is still done every year for example.   The youngest child I have do Foundations was 7 when she started.  I think it was a nice age to start.  I wonder how much some of the 4-5 year olds get out of the program.  I'm not sure it would be worth the money to me at that age.  

 

We have never done Essentials.  I was considering it for my 10 yo son this year (my 10 yo dd is dyslexic and working around a 2nd grade level for writing) but we had a time conflict with another class we do.  I may have him just do Essentials next year and not do Foundations but we'll see.  Our group always has a few families come in for Essentials that do not do Foundations.   

 

I still don't know if I'll have my younger kids continue with Challenge or not.  I am excited to see the Lost Tools of Writing in A and wish it had been there when my older girls were in A.  

[Blessed Mommy]

We are in our 4th year of Classical Conversations.  There are some things I really like about it and some things I don't like.  Both of my teens started with Challenge A and never did any Foundations or Essentials but my 14 year old will likely go all the way through Challenge 4.  My 16 yo is in Challenge 2 and it is probably her last year.  She will be a senior next year and wants to take community college classes.  She hasn't really had time with all of the CC work she has to do.  My 14 yo is in 9th grade and she is in a larger class (11 kids) and most of them are long time members that plan to go all the way through.  The kids in her class are really close and communicate a lot outside of class.

 

I think a lot depends on the community.  Ours has a lot of very dedicated tutors and families.  We haven't run into the issue of students at Challenge not turning work in.   Sometimes parents do cut certain assignments for kids but I think it is rarely done in our community.  The tutors at our Challenge community check the kids work each week and both of mine are really good about getting everything done.  I really don't need to check things over they are really good about it.  My 16 yo daughter has set up a Latin study group and it is the third year that she has organized it.  About half her class meets at the library on Friday afternoons to work on their Latin homework together.  My 14 yo dd will frequently meet up with classmates during Foundations (our Foundations group and Challenge group meet on separate days- neither has a church large enough to accommodate the groups to meet together)

 

I dislike that I have lost flexibility with what my kids study.  What CC picks is not always what I would necessarily pick.  We have been the most happy with the literature, debate, and Latin.  I like that they can discuss literature and other topics with their peers.  We do not use Saxon math.  I also really don't like the science especially for A and B.  If my younger children do Challenge we will opt out for the science.  

 

My 10 yo twins are on their third cycle of Foundations and while I do like it I'm not sure I can imagine going through the cycles again.  I'm not sure if I will have them do Foundations next year or not.  It gets expensive for multiple children and I'm not really sure the cost is worth it when much of the material is repeated.   They can sing the timeline song in their sleep at this point but that is still done every year for example.   The youngest child I have do Foundations was 7 when she started.  I think it was a nice age to start.  I wonder how much some of the 4-5 year olds get out of the program.  I'm not sure it would be worth the money to me at that age.  

 

We have never done Essentials.  I was considering it for my 10 yo son this year (my 10 yo dd is dyslexic and working around a 2nd grade level for writing) but we had a time conflict with another class we do.  I may have him just do Essentials next year and not do Foundations but we'll see.  Our group always has a few families come in for Essentials that do not do Foundations.   

 

I still don't know if I'll have my younger kids continue with Challenge or not.  I am excited to see the Lost Tools of Writing in A and wish it had been there when my older girls were in A.  

 

May I ask what you didn't like about the science in Challenge A and B?  I'm just curious because my oldest will be in Challenge A soon.

 

[Guest 3muggleheads]

3muggleheads:

 

Actually, I am amazed that CC even gave you the option to swap out Latin classes.  I can understand your dilemma, though, because you need the start and stop times to match perfectly so that you get all of the Latin class without missing any other class.  One solution would be if Latin could be offered first thing in the day, or first subject after lunch, in both Challenge I and Challenge A.

 

(Brenda from FL)

I am surprised about the Latin scenario described by an earlier poster. Latin is actually one of those seminars like math where a student can work at their own pace, and be getting a preview or review of concepts during seminar time. The key is that the parent has to take on that role of teacher and not rely on the tutor. The tutor has them for only 30 hours of classroom instruction per year, the parent must oversee their student's progress at home. 

Omma/Brenda and Brenda from FL

 

It was actually the Challenge A director who told me about coming into her level of Latin.  It was the director who agreed to the schedule.  Every time I said something about the time she told me that its always been at 'X' time...9:30, 9:40, 9:45, 9:35....no matter what time the class actually started...9:30, 9:40, 9:45, 9:35, etc.  

The class is for an hour and we have missed 5, 10, sometimes 15 minutes of each lesson, things that could have helped my daughter, just like the other children in class.  Yes, I've taught my other children Latin.  Yes, I work with this daughter at home on Latin.  I am paying for the tutor to work with my child just like all the other children in class.  The director has never explained why she continues to change the time without letting us know.  Talking, meetings with the Challenge 1 director, meeting with the group of Challenge A moms, and offering suggestion does not seem to work.

 

Just sharing my experience.