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Help me use Right Start better


Wind-in-my-hair
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You know the concept of "hacking," meaning to make something work better for you by figuring out what makes it tick, and tweaking it just a little bit to your advantage? I am not talking about computing system infiltration, thought that's where the term comes from, but in the universal idea of making a good concept work even better by re-vamping it. Well, I need some advice from experienced RS "hackers." 

 

I am using RS2, just so you know, level B with a 6-year-old first-grader.

 

I like the program overall, but there are certain difficulties in its methodology. I think it could be made a lot simpler to teach and to learn. The daily calendar "math" review is completely annoying, so I usually skip over it. I don't think calendar skills help to form conceptual understanding of math, but rather are a real-life application that should be covered once in awhile. I could save it for once per week, perhaps. 

 

But a more fundamental flaw in its approach is that it can't seem to decide whether it is spiral or mastery. It certainly jumps around alot, and yet it has a lot of repetition. I think it could be streamlined alot better, so that instead of introducing a new concept after a lot of review, I could just follow a sequence when my child is ready to learn the next higher concept. I don't think review is important if there is a grasp of the concept. It amounts to a muddling of the facts if the child already possesses the skills to think through problems.

 

But overall, we are learning the concept of missing addends and parts-whole diagrams with ease, which would have been a truly daunting thing for me to teach without this program. Also, when it comes to place value, I have no anxiety about teaching that concept because I do think that this method covers it very thoroughly. 

 

So my main issue is on how to streamline this program to eliminate undesired repetition while strengthening skills proactively, with a stepping-up approach to practice and drill rather than a stepping-down/ review daily approach. I think what I am asking is how do I make this program work for a learner who needs a mastery/ move up approach?

 

Next question:

I have heard that RS used to offer only its basal program which prepared the student for the Geometric Approach. The Classic program, as I think it was called, included Activities for the AL Abacus book and worksheets, and the Math Card Games book, and I am not sure what else it entailed. Has anybody used the old, "Classic" RS program, which was basal and lacked all the extra activities and calendar lessons (and hence is not offered as a complete math curriculum)?

 

Thanks in advance. I know alot of people use RS and hopefully can relate to what I am saying about wanting it to be more streamlined.

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I had never thought of the way I adapt RS as making it "more mastery" but that's essentially what I do. With the caveat that we're also using RS2 level B, on lesson 51, and therefore I don't know how this will work long term, here's what we've done so far:

 

1. I skip the warm-up. I think I've only done it once or twice ever. This means that we aren't doing the more spiral review and we aren't doing calendar.

 

2. We skip the In Conclusion section unless it contains the only word problem for the lesson. Exceptions made if DD isn't getting a concept, in which case I might do this section on a separate day by itself for further practice.

 

3. I approach the Enrichment lessons with caution. I remember doing lesson 31, which required over an hour of coloring for DD, whose motor skills are behind her math and hates coloring, assuming that the product would be needed in future lessons. It's not. Argh.

 

4. Any section titled Reviewing _______ gets a brief review. If DD gets it, we move on. If not, then we do the full reviewing section.

 

5. We stop more often. If she is struggling with a concept, we stop before moving on. We play all of the games that might apply, including some for other recent concepts. DD has a Dreambox subscription and the methods in there line up pretty well with RS, so she plays on that for a while when RS is difficult. We also have other math games, such as Toss Up!, Math Dice Jr, Shut the Box, and the like and we'll play with those to help cement concepts. This stopping is what lets us skip the warm-ups and reviews.

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I think the mastery of math facts up to 20 and 12 or 13 in all the operations (depending on which operation) can't be emphasized enough alongside RS. A Dreambox subscription, Math Rider and other games as you're doing should solidify these. Time better spent than in the Level B review, IMO. However, as you get into C and D the warm-ups are where actual math practice takes place (in addition to worksheets), so you'll probably view those differently at that time.

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I have been writing the lesson objectives in my own words from the RS teacher manual. It is really difficult for me to follow at a glance, and I know where my child is in his grasp of the concepts, while they do not.

 

RS shows a concept in more than one way, which I really like. I think that the warm-ups at this level would be better spent in math concepts rather than calendar drill, so I have used Ray's arithmetic oral exercises to build number sense. 

 

Also, I have used c-rods to demonstrate the parts-whole concept. Once he saw with the c-rods what it means to have two parts equaling a whole in length, he got what it meant to partition a whole into a set of two within that number. That was a pretty significant leap. 

 

He has been complaining about repetition though. I think he is beginning to notice that we are covering the same concepts in a variety of ways. I think that is a positive thing because it means he is getting that the facts are the facts, no matter the way they are presented. I think he is missing the satisfaction of solving problems independently, though. He is really smart, and this is not his first math experience. He already knew how to count to 1000, and add-on by counting from 1 (which is what I wanted to change. Now he can add on by counting from 5, and does not count when he enters quantities on the abacus). 

 

But I understand that I am teaching him habits of thinking mathematically, and if I let him solve problems by counting up from 1, he is not really using the strategies being taught. 

 

However, I think the abacus is hard for him to enjoy using. I think I will have to let him use the abacus to solve word problems so that he can develop a sense of the beads meaning something. The abacus should serve as a bridge from the concrete to the abstract, not take the place of meaningful concretes. And I think that is where is enthusiasm for it dwindles. 

 

Also I think it would help to read to him an age-appropriate living book or history of number systems, so that he understands that these systems developed logically and were not just made up. They are observation-based. Every number has an adding-on pattern that repeats itself. "Seven is five and two" whether its with a ten as 17, or whether its in tens as 70 is 50 and 20. There is nothing cryptic about this whatsoever and I like the approach that RS ultimately takes, but my goodness, it can sometimes feel like the "discovery" of it by the child is making him go through a fog until the good, clear truth is known to him, when my gut tells me to just explain the system to him as the "why" behind the exercises, and teach him how to use it properly. 

 

I suppose I will get better at this in time. 

 

 

 

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Did you do the placement test before you chose level B?  For a child not to understand subitizing (that numbers are composed of smaller numbers) and to have that be a "big step" may mean he's not placed properly.  That may be why the abacus is meaningless to him.  RS *does* work from concrete to abstract, but not all children are ready for the abacus.  I taught RS to my dd and had issues with it but made it work, good results, no problem.  I tried level A on ds and he looked at me like I had grown a third leg!  In his case his whole understanding of math was challenged.  I'm now using Ronit Bird with him.  It's everything you're saying you want (a reference that takes you through steps of concrete work with concepts but doesn't include stuff you don't need).  For my ds it makes all the lightbulbs come on.

 

If he's not clicking with B, I wouldn't bother with the Activities for the ALAbacus book, honestly.  It sounds like he connects well with your MUS/c-rod manips.  RonitBird has an inexpensive c-rods book he might be ready for, or look at MUS.  

 

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Guest avidphotog7

Others have addressed your bigger points already, so I thought I'd address just the calendar part.  I was also surprised to see so much calendar work there was... but then it started to make sense.  Dates and sense of time (from the hourly to the monthly) are probably some of the most basic and tangible examples of number use for children this age.  Seven days in a week, 28 to 31 days per month, etc. I think that writing these down repeatedly, discussiing them, and coming up with your own problems involving them are all good ways to encourage good number sense early on.  It can reinforce what's already being done in all the other lessons with respect to place value (ones and tens, and eventually hundreds), estimation, patterns, and a host of other topics.  While my daughter (currently halfway though RSM level B) could tell me the days of the week and months of the year prior to starting the book, I found out that she had a weak conceptual understanding of how it all fit together with respect to scale (number of weeks in a year, days until her birthday two months away, 100 days is about 3 months, etc.).  And so, all of this started to click as we continued to discuss it.  I think the pinnacle was in lesson 70 when she had to figure out how may days are in year by adding up all totals for each month.  After that, I think they (the book) finally dropped it and moved on to other things... but I do think it served a purpose.   

 

You know, there are lots of things that I rolled my eyes at when I first when through RSM with our oldest child (now in RSM E)... but in hindsight, I'm starting to better understand how it all fits together.

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Hmmm.... I did realize there is a big difference between the two, and that some children coming onto B from A have a difficult time. But I also heard that B reviews alot of what was covered in A. This could be the problem. What A might have presented sequentially is presented as spontaneous review in B, and I am repeating these activities until my son gets them, thereby boring him. I am probably going to have to write to the program creator about this though. Thanks for the insight. 

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I am using RS B for the fourth time. I have the older version without the calendar. I agree with the others who have said that it seems like you are jumping around, but it really is leading somewhere.

If your child gets it, don't do every problem. You can even say, "Wow! You are so smart! The author thought you needed to practice that 4 times and you got it in your first try!"

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I am using RS B for the fourth time. I have the older version without the calendar. I agree with the others who have said that it seems like you are jumping around, but it really is leading somewhere.

If your child gets it, don't do every problem. You can even say, "Wow! You are so smart! The author thought you needed to practice that 4 times and you got it in your first try!"

 

Thank your for saying so. I am not sure if getting the new and untested RS2 was a wise move on my part, for this very reason. RS1 built a nice reputation, and there is never a guarantee that the newer one is better. I do not like how instead of being scripted it is written as an abbreviated script of "directives", which is why I have to re-write it as a script in my own voice. That's my number one difficulty with it, besides not knowing the logic behind the sequence.

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I used the old system (through half of C), so no calendar work. It drove me nuts that I couldn't see the path we were on let alone the ultimate destination! It felt scattered, and I had a hard time knowing where one child particularly was with his mastery. I didn't have issues rewording the script. I read it and then talked to my kids.But it never fit me as a teacher. I am glad I stuck with it as long as I did, though. I love the place value foundation it gave us. I much prefer the presentation of new concepts to any other program I've seen. Kids really master the why before they ever receive the algorithm. I think you just have to trust the program. 

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I want to echo what Goldilocks said. I have the older version and I really started to appreciate the crafting of the program while using it for my second child. I don't think you should cut large chunks out of it, though if something is mastered, go ahead and skip it. 

 

I thought the changes were things like eliminating multi-day lessons, which had frustrated some people. I didn't realize it was much more than that.

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I have RS1 B & C, and I'm on my second time through B.  I also have the Activities for the alAbacus book.  

 

My first child hated the presentation of RS, and while it taught her a lot of great thinking & math skills, she really didn't need the repetition and really hated the way topics dragged out.  Oh, and she really really hated using any manipulatives besides the abacus and the math balance.  I ended up "telescoping" the lessons, and covering 4 to 8 lessons a day by only doing the parts she needed.  I tried the Activities book, but it's not laid out developmentally but in subject area.  I covered some stuff that way, but in the end I switched programs with that child to MEP (she appreciated the worksheets).

 

My second child is doing B now, and is doing well.  She doesn't get concepts the way her sister does, but she enjoys the activities and all the manipulatives.  She is far more likely to be willing to puzzle out a problem, and more willing to attack big problems.  RSB#1 is great for her.

 

I don't know if that helps at all.  There is calendar stuff in RSB#1, but it's not overwhelming.

 

:)

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I am pretty sure that my problem is twofold: 1.) My son does like worksheet math. and 2.) We do need to master level A before B can be tackled intuitively. I gave A a proper looking over, and it is very rigorous. 

 

I can see that the levels are structured developmentally and that it gets more challenging and abstract in B. In placing my son in B I took for granted that he knew his number facts because he could so worksheets in 1-10, and could read instructions (the old placement test just wanted to know these two facts, plus the child's age. Now, the placement test says to begin in A regardless of age if the child did not have formal math in K). But his main strategy until RS had been counting up from 1 or using the hundred board to count up or back. I took down the hundred board when I introduced RS and will only bring it back when we have understood place value. 

 

The only problem 

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I use just the Activities for the Al Abacus and the games package. The Activities book goes over the concepts that should be introduced, how to know when its mastered, and what should follow. It includes master sheets for some of the cards and charts needed. It talks about how to practice the concept with the RD materials, but also in general terms so its easy to teach the concept with other materials.

 

My child is very young so a lot of the time I use toys and household things we happen to be using to showcase the concepts. He likes c rods as well and doesn't much care for the abacus, and it hasn't been a problem. When we play the games we usually use a different manipulative each time: C rods, counting blocks, Legos, etc.

 

I also use free c rods activities books, free printable worksheets from the web, living math books, and my own ideas for play based math.

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I am pretty sure that my problem is twofold: 1.) My son does like worksheet math. and 2.) We do need to master level A before B can be tackled intuitively. I gave A a proper looking over, and it is very rigorous. 

 

I can see that the levels are structured developmentally and that it gets more challenging and abstract in B. In placing my son in B I took for granted that he knew his number facts because he could so worksheets in 1-10, and could read instructions (the old placement test just wanted to know these two facts, plus the child's age. Now, the placement test says to begin in A regardless of age if the child did not have formal math in K). But his main strategy until RS had been counting up from 1 or using the hundred board to count up or back. I took down the hundred board when I introduced RS and will only bring it back when we have understood place value. 

 

The only problem 

You may be happier with MUS.  It uses the manipulatives your ds likes, has a worksheet generator online so you can make worksheets to your heart's content, and does one topic at a time to mastery.  

 

Yes, placement is tricky.  In RS A they're learning the components of 10 and by the end can do mental addition with 2 digits.  An older child can go into B and pick up those skills quickly during the review lessons, but some children are going to be young for the pace.  (4 digit addition by lesson 40 in the 1st edition!!)

 

If you want to make RS B work, I suggest you slow it down, doing each lesson to complete understanding, playing games to extend lessons where he needs more time on a concept.  If you wish to switch, it sounds like MUS might be a better fit.  Alternately you could go back and buy RS A.  I'm just thinking, given your general discomfort with the approach, you might be happier with MUS.  MUS is what RS recommends if you decide not to go with them.  :)

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I have RS1 B & C, and I'm on my second time through B.  I also have the Activities for the alAbacus book.  

 

My first child hated the presentation of RS, and while it taught her a lot of great thinking & math skills, she really didn't need the repetition and really hated the way topics dragged out.  Oh, and she really really hated using any manipulatives besides the abacus and the math balance.  I ended up "telescoping" the lessons, and covering 4 to 8 lessons a day by only doing the parts she needed.  I tried the Activities book, but it's not laid out developmentally but in subject area.  I covered some stuff that way, but in the end I switched programs with that child to MEP (she appreciated the worksheets).

 

My second child is doing B now, and is doing well.  She doesn't get concepts the way her sister does, but she enjoys the activities and all the manipulatives.  She is far more likely to be willing to puzzle out a problem, and more willing to attack big problems.  RSB#1 is great for her.

 

I don't know if that helps at all.  There is calendar stuff in RSB#1, but it's not overwhelming.

 

:)

 

MEP is a resource I would fall back on if RS was too daunting. But I like the program too much to ditch it when I think it can be tweaked.

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You may be happier with MUS.  It uses the manipulatives your ds likes, has a worksheet generator online so you can make worksheets to your heart's content, and does one topic at a time to mastery.  

 

Yes, placement is tricky.  In RS A they're learning the components of 10 and by the end can do mental addition with 2 digits.  An older child can go into B and pick up those skills quickly during the review lessons, but some children are going to be young for the pace.  (4 digit addition by lesson 40 in the 1st edition!!)

 

If you want to make RS B work, I suggest you slow it down, doing each lesson to complete understanding, playing games to extend lessons where he needs more time on a concept.  If you wish to switch, it sounds like MUS might be a better fit.  Alternately you could go back and buy RS A.  I'm just thinking, given your general discomfort with the approach, you might be happier with MUS.  MUS is what RS recommends if you decide not to go with them.   :)

 

Thanks for the advice. I am not interested in switching programs right now, however.

 

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I use just the Activities for the Al Abacus and the games package. The Activities book goes over the concepts that should be introduced, how to know when its mastered, and what should follow. It includes master sheets for some of the cards and charts needed. It talks about how to practice the concept with the RD materials, but also in general terms so its easy to teach the concept with other materials.

 

My child is very young so a lot of the time I use toys and household things we happen to be using to showcase the concepts. He likes c rods as well and doesn't much care for the abacus, and it hasn't been a problem. When we play the games we usually use a different manipulative each time: C rods, counting blocks, Legos, etc.

 

I also use free c rods activities books, free printable worksheets from the web, living math books, and my own ideas for play based math.

 

Thanks for your description. Based on what everybody has told me, I have decided to get RS A 1st ed, and the Activities for the AL Abacus book. I think that the RS pedagogy is ideal for the younger set, and I have a little one I want to be ready to teach by age 4.

I think I can adapt A and B for my 6yo son's learning style, and if I cannot, there are affordable or no-cost choices.

 

One person had told me that RS was for gifted children, and I didn't believe them. But I can see where that may come from, because RS does seem to demonstrate things in a concrete-to-abstract way and at a rigorous pace, that may take a few cognitive leaps for my child. But if starting at A does not work up to my son liking the program, I am not going to regret having used the program. There is just so much I like about it.

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I am not math brained and could never rethink a math curriculum! But teaching my second child through it, I am doing more facts review and more games and taking time to dwell on things Ds seems to struggle with, without feeling rushed to get through the book.

 

When we get to C, I may move the geometry section to the end of the year.

I do skip some of the enrichment lessons.

I like the calendar stuff. It takes only a minute or two and helps him understand his world in a mathematical way, that math is everywhere.

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Thanks for your description. Based on what everybody has told me, I have decided to get RS A 1st ed, and the Activities for the AL Abacus book. I think that the RS pedagogy is ideal for the younger set, and I have a little one I want to be ready to teach by age 4.

I think I can adapt A and B for my 6yo son's learning style, and if I cannot, there are affordable or no-cost choices.

 

One person had told me that RS was for gifted children, and I didn't believe them. But I can see where that may come from, because RS does seem to demonstrate things in a concrete-to-abstract way and at a rigorous pace, that may take a few cognitive leaps for my child. But if starting at A does not work up to my son liking the program, I am not going to regret having used the program. There is just so much I like about it.

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forgive me for skipping most of what others have written.

 

I was struggling with my son, and I found that he really did need the warm ups. I also found that i had to be super consistent with him. this may not be your issue. but these are some of my hacks. consistency, consistency, in either games or just the warm up and a game, or the warm ups written down. I also found that adding in, for my son who is 6 and in Level A 2nd edition (i have a daughter in C), he needed to use horizon math lesson, two pages of super easy or super repetitive problems, we skipp a lot as a warm up before we do the RS levels. THEN we would go only for 15 mins give or take, and stop before he was fatigued. I  have found that the warm ups are very key for both of my kids. they may not seem that important or make much sense, but they are, even when they know the info, i still do it.

 

I love using a timer, even if I only see it... b/c then no matter how long a lesson takes or how hard our day is I am getting in at least something... lately it's been taking my son 2-3 days to get through a lesson, and it's not b/c the info is too hard for him.

 

If i even go a few days without math with him it's like pulling him down out of his floating brain/thoughts every. single. second. it's as if he is out there aimless and not interested and not getting it. even though he does. I don't know why. hoping i didn't completely miss the boat in what you were looking for now that so many others have posted.

 

 

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I want to share one more observation just to see if anyone can provide feedback. 

 

I am noticing that RS is very strong in skills development, but I do not see a whole lot of application to story problems or math puzzles. I thought that there would be more story problems and things of that sort. Do they come later? Are they inserted sporadically? Is the calendar math the main chunk of the real-world application?

 

Though I do not have enough experience to say for my son, I am wondering if there is an age gap that can happen if you begin RS too late with a child (like we are doing, beginning at age 6). Preschoolers can focus and absorb information through their senses while learning, but I think once a child is 6 and older, they want to see how they can use this information. As it gets more advanced, does RS satisfy this need?

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No, RS does not bring in a lot of word problems the way you're thinking.  They *do* cover problem solving strategies using the part-whole circles, which should work for most kids.  We added on the SM CWP books.  

 

I know you keep saying 6, older, 1st grade, but there's a WIDE variation in 6 at this age, especially with boys.  My dd at this age (newly 6) was reading at a 2nd-3rd grade reading level, most of the way through RS B (and that's newly 6, mind you), had covered all of FLL1/2, etc.  My ds6, also newly 6, has a higher IQ (just got him tested and it is by a fuzz, with a dramatically higher processing speed that makes him FUNCTION like a much brighter kid), and he as of a month ago couldn't hold up 6 fingers if you said 6.  He can now.  Can't read (dyslexic), still learning to write letters.  But he does lego technic kits for 12 yos and has for a year.  Higher IQ.  And when I tried RS A he looked at me like I was singing about dogs flying.

 

Don't get hung up on grade level.  You really have to teach them WHERE THEY ARE. 

 

Math is also the most challenging thing for homeschoolers to figure out.  I STRONGLY encourage you to try several curricula to find your groove.  You said you don't want to change, but if you're going back to buy level A you might as well look at options.  You said he doesn't like the abacus, and I can tell you, in my small experience of watching people, that doesn't change.  If it's not going to change and you're having to buy anyway, you might as well move on.  MUS is very concrete, mastery, and has very similar strategies as RS in the early levels.

 

There were many things I liked about RS conceptually and all the things I liked then I still like, all these years later.  But the things that concerned me then (the things you're seeing, like only using one major manipulative for visualization, like where are the word problems, like is it going to have enough practice to develop fluency in my student, etc.) were indeed issues.  It's not a good fit for everyone and it's not quite as diverse as say BJU math, which will have teaching strategies for all the modalities in the early years.  

 

I'm saying don't ignore your gut on the problems just because you want to do a good job conceptually.  You can use MUS, BJU, or other programs and still do a good job conceptually.  

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Having had both first and second edition of B (though I never actually used first edition), I will say that the second edition has made a real effort to increase the number of word problems. I still don't feel there are enough and I use living math books to complement RightStart. Eventually, I might decide to add in Singapore's Challenging Word Problems as well.

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Thank you for that information on RS2 having more word problems. 

 

I do plan to use living books, and I have no problem creating my own word problems. 

 

I like the word problems in Ray's Arithmetic. I would incorporate those, too. 

 

Will you share some of your favorite living math book titles?

 

Having had both first and second edition of B (though I never actually used first edition), I will say that the second edition has made a real effort to increase the number of word problems. I still don't feel there are enough and I use living math books to complement RightStart. Eventually, I might decide to add in Singapore's Challenging Word Problems as well.

 

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Will you share some of your favorite living math book titles?

I love the MathStart series by Stuart Murphy. Level one is preschool math, level two lines up with K-first, and level three lines up with 1st-3rd grades. More or less, anyway. Our library has most of these.

 

Sir Cumference and All the King's Tens was fun and a good introduction to place values beyond what we've done with RS. I know there are more Sir Cumference books, but the ones I've seen are more advanced.

 

I absolutely love the Time-Life I Love Math series. It's out of print, but easy to find used copies online. Each book has a wide variety of math, spanning kindergarten to maybe fourth grade? I have bought several of these because they cover so many years worth of math that we revisit them periodically and DD has fun seeing what she can understand now that she didn't get before.

 

And when I remember, I poke through the reader lists at livingmath.net and choose random titles to reserve at the library.

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My teaching style really depends on me being able to explain something in my own words and hint at the larger picture. I know that foundations must be lain at every stage of teaching before moving on to the next. I know that application leads to success at retaining and understanding the knowledge. I know that hands-on activities illustrate unseen principles and how they work in reality. And I know that turning reality into a workable, accurate imagination is how concepts are kept without rote memorization. Repeated application following a concrete demonstration is how I believe facts are retained as real knowledge. 

 

So... for me to teach any program effectively I have to be able to verbalize its rational and have my student verbalize it back to me, plus show me that he can use it in problems solving in similar, non-identical situations. And for some reason the program I find best suited for this is Ray's Arithmetic. The demonstrations are concrete, the drills are verbal, his motto to "teach one thing at a time, and teach it well," resonates with me.

 

In regard to RS,  I do believe that sensory knowledge creates an intuitive impression of a concept that lasts and lasts, but the risk is that these impressions have the ability to precede and mimic conceptual learning. My fear is that without understanding the RS pedagogy, I will be moving on to higher concepts when my child merely has a perceptual knowledge, and has not truly integrated the information in his mind in a way that makes it make sense and be ever-accessible to him.  To get a child thinking abstractly requires more than just manipulative demonstration: the child has to have meaningful application for that knowledge, and prior experience seeing it work both in material form and in the imagination. 

 

 

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Calendar hacks I thought of: Read Chicken Soup With Rice and make game cards of the months, for sequencing activities. Do the same for the days of the week and read nursery rhymes or poems instead of the chants in RS. But this won't be as important as I am going to level A and back to edition 1, which doesn't have all this yet. I can actually print the first ten lessons of edition 1 from the samples page; not so for edition 2, which skips around the entire manual in its sample selection. The scripting of ed. 1 looks alot more intuitive to me, so here goes an honest shot at using RS better than I have been. 

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