Can you stand another dog training question? (new photo update)

[Laurie4b]

Sorry! It's been a long time since I've had a dog to train and you guys are a great source of info.

 

Big Girl loves to play with balls and entertains herself--tossing them, catching them, rolling them, chasing them, and putting some spin on them. They tend to end up under furniture where she can't reach them.

 

She is kind of husky-verbal, doesn't bark, but has a communicative whine. At first, I didn't mind responding to her whines about a ball out of reach, but then as I retrieved more balls (and sometimes didn't want to stop what I was doing to go fetch for her) I wondered if I'm reinforcing whining. Well, yes I am, but what to do about it? I do want her to communicate her needs, so I don't want to ignore it altogether, but neither do I want to be "trained" to drop what I'm doing so the whining will stop.

 

Suggestions?

 

Also she is a private- parts- poker . She quickly learned not to jump up in greeting, but the private-parts-poke can come as a surprise so I haven't been able to figure out a way to anticipate it and train a different behavior. I've just put a hand up to block when possible (when it's not from behind!) Any suggestions?

 

I don't know what kind of mix Big Girl is, in case breed matters for suggestions. I am guessing there is hound in there from the vocalizing  and the build and Brindle coloring. You can't tell from the photo, but her tail usually curls up at the end, and sometimes she holds it so that the curl is sideways.  24 inches at shoulders, probably at least 5 feet tall if she were to stand on hind legs (I don't want to test this out!). She comes to get attention, but it isn't excessive. While she loves to chase and pounce on balls, she is not all that interested in squirrels or deer on walks. (That surprised me. I thought the behavior with the balls looked like prey drive playing.) She is very responsive to training and learns quickly. She has an overcoat (which sometimes Plott hounds do, but also obviously labs do.) Doesn't shed very much. Likes to cross her front paws--very ladylike.

 

 

[Mama Geek]

I have a std poodle that loves balls.  Ours has learned that if he gets obnoxious with them he gets told no and the balls get put away in a drawer until later.

 

Can't help you with the other problem.

[Innisfree]

I can't help with the training, but she looks just like my old greyhound/german shepherd cross. She was a great dog, and boy could she run and jump.

[Slache]

I vote boarder collie/greyhound. :)

 

The poking: Smack her nose and yell no.

 

The ball thing: A strict "no". Get her toys out every day at the same time. Dinner, when she's fed, whatever, just make it consistent. If she loses the ball, she waits. I would give her at least 3 balls. Get her a toy box and teach her to put her toys away when she's done so that having several dog toys isn't a bother.

[Slache]

Oh, and be sure to teach 2 commands. First, sit wherever she is. Dogs like to put themselves in danger. In any circumstance, at any location, 100 feet from me my dog will stop and sit. The second is go to [designated spot]. Ours is the couch. Company's at the door, go to the couch. The baby knocked her plate over, go to the couch. It's very handy.

[Pawz4me]

I also think she looks like a Greyhound.  I'd really like to see a picture of her standing.  Does she have a noticeable tummy tuck?

 

(ETA -- Looking again, I could also be convinced of Plott Hound.)

 

How many balls does she have?  I'd get multiples and try to teach her to get another one when necessary.  Not always easy, since most dogs tend to get fixated on one thing.

 

As far as the crotch poking -- I'd consistently work on a command for that.  Something like "no poke" every time she does it, and then a few seconds of ignoring.  Since she's doing it to solicit attention, you really don't want to do anything to reward her by giving her attention (even negative attention is still attention).  And I'd work on an alternate behavior, like making her sit before showing her any attention, so that it becomes her default behavior and replaces the poking.  Be patient.  The poking may have worked well with her previous owner, so it may take awhile for her to get the idea that it doesn't work with the new people.

[hornblower]

I can ALWAYS talk more about dogs & training!


she's gorgeous!


Standard +R problem solving

 

- extinguish (if no reinforcement comes, it will extinguish. So ignore the annoying bhvr, and the second the dog does something else that is not annoying, click & reward)

- redirect

 

- train alternative bhvr

- train a non punitive interruptor. A noise or a word that means essentially quit what you're doing & I'll give you something else to do. Many people do this naturally by using the kissy noise as an interruptor.  Kikopup has a video on this.

- consider the antecedent. What leads up to the annoying bhvr? what happens just before? Can you alter that part & then break the bhvr chain?


(there are only 8 ways to get rid of a bhvr. EVERYTHING we do falls into one of these. I train mostly in 4-8 though occasionally training falls into #3. http://www.clickertraining.com/node/290 )


Tell me more about the crotch poking. Is this just during greetings or always? Dogs like to sniff crotches. http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/canine-corner/201408/why-do-dogs-sniff-crotches

is this more of a goosing bhvr? My old newfie likes to 'bite' my butt.  It's not a bite, he just muzzle whacks me when I'm bending over to get shoes out of the closet.  Honestly, it makes me laugh so hard so it's a thing I've allowed. I know when he's feeling good & happy & I know when he's feeling slow & sore by whether he charges my butt while I'm putting shoes on to go for a walk...   learn from me: if you don't like a bhvr, laughing about it & saying "you silly boy, quit biting my butt, who's a terribly silly boy?' in a sing song voice is not the way to extinguish a bhvr.


My setter came to me with a head flicking bhvr which I did extinguish - after having him spill several cups of tea that I was holding. He'd come up & flick his head under my wrist. 


The whining - interesting. So she's doing it only when she's frustrated? I'd consider whether she's a bit bored & just frustrated with the game she's playing. More balls, a box of toys, a different chew toy, or a puzzle toy.
With youngish dogs who are getting annoying, my stand by is either a frozen stuffed kong, or if I want a couple hours of peace, a giant knuckle bone. Both those mean: go play on your own now.
 

[Laurie4b]

I can't help with the training, but she looks just like my old greyhound/german shepherd cross. She was a great dog, and boy could she run and jump.

 

 

I don't have advice on those two problems, as neither of our dogs have had those issues, but wanted to chime in that she's cute! I feel like I'm seeing some greyhound in her. 've been following your threads about her and hope things work out well.

 

 

I also think she looks like a Greyhound.  I'd really like to see a picture of her standing.  Does she have a noticeable tummy tuck?

 

(ETA -- Looking again, I could also be convinced of Plott Hound.)

 

 

I have wondered about greyhound. Yes, there is a noticeable deep chest plus narrow tummy. (Would that I would be so lucky.) And she has only barked once in her life according to past owner. That was when she was outside pooping and a deer walked by.

[Laurie4b]

I can't help with the training, but she looks just like my old greyhound/german shepherd cross. She was a great dog, and boy could she run and jump.

 

 

I don't have advice on those two problems, as neither of our dogs have had those issues, but wanted to chime in that she's cute! I feel like I'm seeing some greyhound in her. 've been following your threads about her and hope things work out well.

 

 

I also think she looks like a Greyhound.  I'd really like to see a picture of her standing.  Does she have a noticeable tummy tuck?

 

(ETA -- Looking again, I could also be convinced of Plott Hound.)

 

 

I have wondered about greyhound. Yes, there is a noticeable deep chest plus narrow tummy. (Would that I would be so lucky.) And she has only barked once in her life according to past owner. That was when she was outside pooping and a deer walked by.

 

I was thinking some kind of hound (including greyhound) shepherd cross, or maybe Lab because of the coat? But part of her is hound like and part of her is really attuned to her people, socializing, and pleasing them (which made me think shepherd at first, but maybe with the coat, a lab.)

 

Those photos are from the craigslist ad. I'll try to get one of her standing. Camera battery is dead right now.

[Laurie4b]

I also think she looks like a Greyhound.  I'd really like to see a picture of her standing.  Does she have a noticeable tummy tuck?

 

(ETA -- Looking again, I could also be convinced of Plott Hound.)

 

How many balls does she have?  I'd get multiples and try to teach her to get another one when necessary.  Not always easy, since most dogs tend to get fixated on one thing.

 

 

 

 

This was also a quote. For some reason, the box disappeared:

The whining - interesting. So she's doing it only when she's frustrated? I'd consider whether she's a bit bored & just frustrated with the game she's playing. More balls, a box of toys, a different chew toy, or a puzzle toy.

With youngish dogs who are getting annoying, my stand by is either a frozen stuffed kong, or if I want a couple hours of peace, a giant knuckle bone. Both those mean: go play on your own now.

 

 

 

The whining is when the ball is someplace she can't get it--like way under the entertainment center. Believe me, she tries. If dogs could ooze, she would have it.

 

If I get it for her, she goes right back to her game. The whining seems to mean: "Can I get some help here? I need you to do something for me!"  She also whines in the morning when she wants to get out of her crate. I don't mind that because it just lets us know she's up and has to potty. (She's not adjusted to our schedule yet.) Sometimes the whining just seems like she's trying to tell me something, if you know what I mean. I'll be talking with her or petting her and she'll whine some. Haven't figured that out.

 

ETA: just found this on youtube. This is it:

 

 

As for balls: She is actually very flexible about switching balls, but I can't afford to keep her in enough balls!  She has scoured under furniture and in the back yard and found and torn up several tennis balls, left here by our regular beagle visitor. I bought 2 kong balls because 2 is all we can afford right now, and there is also one squeaky ball that she hasn't chewed through yet. (She is less interested in the kongs probably because she can't chew them, but she still likes to chase them.)

[Laurie4b]

 

As far as the crotch poking -- I'd consistently work on a command for that.  Something like "no poke" every time she does it, and then a few seconds of ignoring.  Since she's doing it to solicit attention, you really don't want to do anything to reward her by giving her attention (even negative attention is still attention).  And I'd work on an alternate behavior, like making her sit before showing her any attention, so that it becomes her default behavior and replaces the poking.  Be patient.  The poking may have worked well with her previous owner, so it may take awhile for her to get the idea that it doesn't work with the new people.  I am not positive it's for attention. Or is greeting for attention?  If I were a dog, I guess I would return the favor. But she does more than sniff. She presses her nose in

 

 

 

 

- extinguish (if no reinforcement comes, it will extinguish. So ignore the annoying bhvr, Don't some dogs just do this naturally to "greet" and the second the dog does something else that is not annoying, click & reward)

 

- redirect  - train alternative bhvr  Do you have a suggestion?

 

- train a non punitive interruptor. A noise or a word that means essentially quit what you're doing & I'll give you something else to do. Many people do this naturally by using the kissy noise as an interruptor.  Kikopup has a video on this.  I kind of naturally do a gutteral noise that does interrupt dog behavior (like putting a nose up over the counter...She does stop whatever she's doing. The problem with the poke, is she often catches me off guard. I can't see it coming or distinguish it from a normal approach.

 

- consider the antecedent. What leads up to the annoying bhvr? what happens just before? Can you alter that part & then break the bhvr chain? I'll have to pay more attention. I was thinking about this while getting dinner ready, and thought it's mostly when I get up in the morning, or we've been separated for a while and she approaches me, or I return home. Having arrived at that conclusion, she poked me in the butt when I was getting something out of the pantry.

 

 

 

 

 

Tell me more about the crotch poking. Is this just during greetings or always? Dogs like to sniff crotches. http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/canine-corner/201408/why-do-dogs-sniff-crotches

 

Mostly during greeting, but see above. I should probably write it down. And it annoys me and I like dogs. I know that really bothers visitors who don't like dogs.

 

ETA: so, I hadn't heard her in a while, and called her. She came to me. My hands were out to pet her, but she got through them to nose my crotch.  DH just came home. She stayed in a down as he entered, then I released her to greet him, which she did appropriately. She followed us in the bedroom and as dh was replacing the battery in my camera, she goosed him (in the butt)  briefly.

 

is this more of a goosing bhvr? Yes, it is quite firm sometimes!  My old newfie likes to 'bite' my butt.  It's not a bite, he just muzzle whacks me when I'm bending over to get shoes out of the closet.  Honestly, it makes me laugh so hard so it's a thing I've allowed. I know when he's feeling good & happy & I know when he's feeling slow & sore by whether he charges my butt while I'm putting shoes on to go for a walk...   learn from me: if you don't like a bhvr, laughing about it & saying "you silly boy, quit biting my butt, who's a terribly silly boy?' in a sing song voice is not the way to extinguish a bhvr. :)

 

 

My setter came to me with a head flicking bhvr which I did extinguish - after having him spill several cups of tea that I was holding. He'd come up & flick his head under my wrist. What did you do to extinguish it?

 

 

In general, she seems to have a keen sense of smell. I think that's how she located balls that were all over the place--they had beagle slobber on them. Also, today, I didn't want her to destroy a tennis ball she'd gotten, and stuck it under a cushion on a chair when I had to leave the room. I was interested to see if she was locating things by scent. Sure enough, she had it out from under the cushion by the time I got back. (She was out of the room when I hid it.)

 

So I am thinking the crotch/butt poking is her exercising her sense of smell, so I'm not sure how to extinguish it.

 

I'll try to gather more data.

[Laurie4b]

Oh, and be sure to teach 2 commands. First, sit wherever she is. Dogs like to put themselves in danger. In any circumstance, at any location, 100 feet from me my dog will stop and sit. The second is go to [designated spot]. Ours is the couch. Company's at the door, go to the couch. The baby knocked her plate over, go to the couch. It's very handy.

 

I definitely want to be able to give her a command from a distance. We're working up to it. She came (Mon night)  with a pretty good sit, but a split second "down", so we've worked on down. She's solid enough that I was able to give her a hand signal from about 6 ft away tonight and she did it. We're working on down with a wait until I say release, but she doesn't always make that. She's learning fast, though! And "down" is the first behavior she offers now, which is nice in many circumstances.

 

I definitely want to be able to tell her where to go! haha. She has a crate, but wasn't trained to go to it. She needs the human to be next to the crate calling her to it, as opposed to sending her to it. That's definitely on the list.

[hornblower]

sounds like she's a very smart cookie & would love to play nosework games. Some dogs really adore playing 'find the toy' games but be careful about putting toys in your couch unless you're ok with her digging through your cushions when she wants to look for something.

I extinguished Darwin's hand flicking by a process that went something like this: keep an eagle eye on the dog whenever I had cup in my hand. If he started approaching, I'd cue him to do something else (sit, down, eye contact, shake a paw, spin - whatever....) & then reward that. Bopping me even when I don't have anything in my hand, resulted in me turning away from him & ignoring him. Any approach which involved just getting close to me but not bopping me got rewarded with attention & praise or a click & treat. I was highly motivated since spilling hot tea all over my lap & computer several times was not fun for either of us.  I also separately taught a 'go to your mat' bhvr & a  'go settle somewhere. I don't care what you do but go do it somewhere else'  Appropriate ways of getting attn are to stand a few feet away & look at me, bring me a toy, talk (setters have the most adorable ROOOOO noise they make). I like my dogs to come & see me & say hi. I greet them, say a few words & then, if I'm busy, tell them go to chill somewhere.

for the crotch sniffing - sounds like a learned greeting bhvr & a lack of respect for personal space. This is where I use the teensiest bit of negative reinforcement by using my body to move a dog. Think of the kind of pressure a working border collie applies to sheep. Dogs (horses too) are incredibly sensitive and quite savvy about a zone of space around them. if you push into that space, they'll move back. Some pushy dogs just like to crowd your body space.

I very slowly but firmly walk into a dog's space until they rock back on their heels or take a step back. It's very small stuff & very subtle but they get the hang of it very quickly. The second a dog rocks back or takes a step back, you immediately release the 'pressure' by also stepping back. Then reward the dog by inviting them into your space with your body language & giving attention. Not sure I'm explaining this well....  But essentially, I'd kind of go still & stiff, stop talking, keep arms down, and move forward towards the dog until they step back. Second they step back, you step back, soften your body, pat your leg to indicate dog should come closer or just pet their shoulder/chest if they're still within arm reach. Oh & since it's a crotch sniff, I think I'd freeze & turn away from the dog for a split second then move into their space. Just to make it clear - um, nope, don't do that.   (my female doesn't like dogs sniffing her butt & she does the same thing - just turns away & if someone doesn't get the point, she'll start moving forward to them. sometimes with teeth LOL)

Young & adolescent dogs can take a while to learn boundaries so be patient & very gentle. this is teensy small movements- we're not stomping at the dog or kneeing the dog or anything. Just teensy bit of pressure & body space awareness.  Always reward anything they do right & anything you want to see more of.

[Laurie4b]

I got some good shots tonight. Here's a side view standing for Pawz:

 

I was thinking this profile looks very much like her: http://www.animalplanet.com/breed-selector/dog-breeds/hound/plott.html

 

 

 

[Pawz4me]

I think you're right -- Plott Hound!  Are there many in your area?  It's probably more likely than Greyhound, since almost all of them go from the track into rescue groups, where they're spayed or neutered.

[Laurie4b]

We live a few hours from an area with a high concentration of Plott hounds, but they are not particularly common right around here that I know of. No bears or boars, though some people might use them to hunt coons and we are within a few miles of rural surroundings.

 

She is definitely good with her nose, which makes me think more scent hound (and greyhounds are sight hounds, right?) But the good nose could be from whatever else she is mixed with if she is part greyhound. She had recently begun filling out according to her owner, so she may get thicker still. An example of being good with her nose was upthread. She had left the room, and left a tennis ball in front of a chair. Wanting to save the ball from destruction, but wanting to access it easily if I wanted to play with her, I put it under the seat cushion of the chair.  When she did come back into the room, she located it right away.

 

On the other hand, both breeds vocalize/talk and she does that, but so far no howling or barking. Her previous owner said she'd only barked twice--once when a deer went by while she was pooping and once when he forgot and didn't give her a treat she had earned. He said that was more a combo bark/whine.

 

Her lips are distinctly black as is a lot of the tissue in her mouth (there is some pink, too). Tongue and gums are pink.

 

[Jann in TX]

We have a dog that LOVES to play with balls... DH solved the issue with the balls getting stuck under the furniture... he attached some wood strips to the underneath part of the couches so balls could not roll under enough to get stuck-- you can't see the wood strips.  Before that we kept a mop handle in the corner and would 'sweep' the balls out every morning.

 

Our guy also LOVES his Jolly Ball (ball with handle).  He is a large German Shepherd so we use the 10" 'horse' version.  We usually replace them every 6 months-- but they are very TOUGH (yet squishy).

[Laurie4b]

Remind me not to take her hiking again without a nose harness. I think actual damage was done to my joints--not because I was pulling back, but because I tried to stop when she made the leash tight with her pulling. She was pretty easy-going in the neighborhood, which is wooded, so I was not expecting the exponential power increase out on the trail. Heading to bed for a nap...