Anyone seen this poster??

[Murphy101]

So I'm saying that the stigma is a good and natural thing. Parental disapproval is one thing (which is often eventually overcome once the baby arrives, anyway). AIDS, venereal diseases, abortions, and the interruption (or elimination) of the opportunities of a natural childhood are much worse consequences.

 

I prefer 25 years ago. I even prefer 50 years ago. Give me Hester Prynne with her scarlet A over AIDS, abortion, and unnatural sex in-your-face-everywhere. Do students even read The Scarlet Letter any more? I did 25 years ago.

 

Again, I torn in agreement on this.

 

I once heard a good priest say that the only thing worse than feeling shame was being shameless. I completely agree. For some reason many people these days have no moral sense of shame when they do wrong. That nagging feeling in the pit of one's stomach that keeps them in check is missing for some reason. Or maybe just supressed or maybe they are just told they don't have to feel that way often enough that they believe it. I don't know. I'd rather my kids have a healthy sense of proper shame than to act shamelessly.

 

BUT that doesn't mean people weren't having sex and babies outside of marriage either or getting STDs and abortions. Greatly reduced because women KNEW they couldn't count on any man that didn't already have a ring on their hand? Yes. But it still happened. Again, I don't think we'll ever eradicate these things. They've been around since the first man and woman. But I do agree society is getting rather shameless and the escalating numbers reflect that.

[Academy of Jedi Arts]

I disagree with this position. Seeing something over and over again desensitizes people. As these teens see ads for contraceptives and abortion, but not abstinence they will begin to forget that abstinence is a viable and the ONLY reliable (beside sterilization) form of birth control.

 

Only you (the proverbial you) know your children and what information will be helpful to them. My mom, OTH, was WAY off. The things she told me made me MORE curious. That, coupled, with good old fashioned rebellion is why I lost my virginity in high school. I sure wish I would have waited until I was more mature and had more self respect. I would have benefited from posters telling me to wait more than where to get the b/c.

 

Also, a public health office is just that. That means that younger children will be exposed to these posters. Not every child is ready for the info portrayed in a public space. I would not want to use those public services because I didn't want my children exposed to those posters. That's why I suggested that those posters could be placed in a more appropriate place to help those that need them.

 

Well, I WANT my 7 year old (and would have wanted her as a 3 year old and 4 year old) to see those posters, to ask about those posters. I am glad my daughter is growing up in a world where she has choices about her sex life the same way men have for decades.

 

Sure, abstaining from sex is an option, but it was not the option I wanted as a young adult and it may not be the option my daughter chooses.

[beansprouts]

I'm not sure why you think this of prolifers? I don't know ANY prolifers who fail to understand this.

 

I think my opinion comes partly from their *ahem* "propaganda" and partly because of the nutcases. There are even some good, normal people who are right in their convictions but have just forgotten about grace. Personally, I think abortion is wrong on many levels and the consequences of a lost life affect more than we can ever comprehend. I have just been hesitant to identify with the "pro-life" movement because of these issues. I do know there are organizations cropping up now that do minister to the Mamas in a compassionate way and I am grateful for them.

 

FTR Martha, I always enjoy reading your posts :001_smile:

[SusanG]

Well, I WANT my 7 year old (and would have wanted her as a 3 year old and 4 year old) to see those posters, to ask about those posters. I am glad my daughter is growing up in a world where she has choices about her sex life the same way men have for decades.

 

Sure, abstaining from sex is an option, but it was not the option I wanted as a young adult and it may not be the option my daughter chooses.

 

 

ITA. We do some contributions each Christmas through our homeschool group to the local AIDS counseling/testing center, so my kids have been exposed to posters about AIDS, condoms, and other STDs since before they could read - we're the family that brings all the donations in to them each year. We've had brief discussions about them, and about the purpose of the clinic. I don't assume my children will abstain from sex as teens - I know I didn't, and I wouldn't go back and change that fact if I could. I'd rather them go into their teen years fully informed about sex and all its ramifications than with half-truths and admonitions to "just say no" like many other teens end up experiencing. I know the general consensus here is that teen sex and premarital sex is wrong, no matter what - but I think responsible sex as an older teen/young adult is an acceptable course of action.

[genie]

I don't assume my children will abstain from sex as teens - I know I didn't, and I wouldn't go back and change that fact if I could.

 

I'm living proof that sheltering and teaching abstinence-only doesn't necessarily work. I've spent a lot of time analyzing what it was about my upbringing that led me to rebel so much in my teens years. Were there things my parents could have done differently, or was it just my nature? I truly believe that for my particular personality, a very matter-of-fact attitude about sex would have been the best. Turning it into something naughty, or something you "just don't do", only made ME more curious. I never had any intention of waiting until marriage, and wanted to experience everything possible as soon as possible.

 

Because I know how I was, I never made any assumptions about my daughter. I've always been very open with any questions she has had, and I let her know that she can talk to me about anything. And she often does. Most recently she was talking about how a friend of hers (who is two years older) wants to have sex before marriage. My daughter was saying how she thinks she wants to wait until marriage. My daughter. The one whose mom talks to her about sex, has never told her she has to wait until marriage for sex, who has never treated sex as anything but a natural thing some people do. She came to this decision completely on her own. It's hers. She owns it. And if she decides to wait, it will not be because it's what she's been told she SHOULD do, but because it's what SHE wants to do. I can't think of any better reason than that.

[Academy of Jedi Arts]

ITA. We do some contributions each Christmas through our homeschool group to the local AIDS counseling/testing center, so my kids have been exposed to posters about AIDS, condoms, and other STDs since before they could read - we're the family that brings all the donations in to them each year. We've had brief discussions about them, and about the purpose of the clinic. I don't assume my children will abstain from sex as teens - I know I didn't, and I wouldn't go back and change that fact if I could. I'd rather them go into their teen years fully informed about sex and all its ramifications than with half-truths and admonitions to "just say no" like many other teens end up experiencing. I know the general consensus here is that teen sex and premarital sex is wrong, no matter what - but I think responsible sex as an older teen/young adult is an acceptable course of action.

 

My husband and I were not yet married when my daughter was conceived. She was not an unplanned pregnancy either. We did get married before she was born, as we had planned.

 

I am amazed at how many people ask me, "What are you going to tell her?" :confused: Like I need to make up some story or somehow be ashamed of the perfectly rational choices her father and I made.

[dragons in the flower bed]

Most recently she was talking about how a friend of hers (who is two years older) wants to have sex before marriage. My daughter was saying how she thinks she wants to wait until marriage. My daughter. The one whose mom talks to her about sex, has never told her she has to wait until marriage for sex, who has never treated sex as anything but a natural thing some people do.

 

There's good evidence for this being a reproducible result in the book Harmful to Minors: The Perils of Protecting Children from Sex by Judith Levine. It compares statistics from abstinence programs with other sex ed programs. Here's an extensive interview with the author, and there are a couple of reviews here and here .

[Laura K (NC)]

Since the Fall we have had disorder, and we will until Jesus comes.

[Jenny in Atl]

Since the Fall we have had disorder, and we will until Jesus comes.

 

 

Did you read the statistics I posted on the past page? Rates have fallen since the 50's. Only recently increasing again but still not as high as the 50's.

[Murphy101]

Well, I WANT my 7 year old (and would have wanted her as a 3 year old and 4 year old) to see those posters, to ask about those posters. I am glad my daughter is growing up in a world where she has choices about her sex life the same way men have for decades.

 

Sure, abstaining from sex is an option, but it was not the option I wanted as a young adult and it may not be the option my daughter chooses.

 

See now, I don't get this. If you want to teach your child that, well it's your perogative as their parent, but what's that got to do with the posters and such? Are you saying you wouldn't teach her she has the option of having sex if the posters weren't there? I don't understand why it's okay to push this stuff everywhere. If you want to teach your children different than me about sex, I completely understand and accept that, but what about MY right to teach my kids different and not wanting them to think those things are okay? Why shoudl I have to have to deal with those posters?

 

I think my opinion comes partly from their *ahem* "propaganda" and partly because of the nutcases. There are even some good, normal people who are right in their convictions but have just forgotten about grace.

 

hmmm.. okay can we discuss what you think is propaganda then? That implies something dishonest? For example. that graphic abortion billboard pic notes an actual factual result. Abortion isn't pretty. I absolutely agree it shouldn't be on a billboard like that. However, the truth is many women going in for an abortion are not told exactly what it entails and the results are not graphicly and detailed out for them. "It" will be scraped out. "It" is not described as a baby with little arms and fingers being cut out. Oh no, that'd be rude and crass. But it is what is happening. Using nicer words and being careful not to give illustration doesn't change that.

 

Again, I do NOT agree with such a horrific picture on a billboard. But there does need to be a way to get the entire procedure and what it involves and the results into patient hands so they can make a genuine informed consent. I mean, if I want a c-section, they show me a video about exactly what happens, how it happens and so forth. They do that for most vaginal deliveries too in lamaze classes and so forth. We can watch documentaries about nearly any medical procedure. Why not the same for abortions? Because they KNOW most women wouldn't want an abortion if they knew all the information?

 

So anyhow. What propaganda? I'm not being snarky - it's a genuine curious question. :) I completely agree some think they have to sink to some hateful depths to get their point across and I disagree with that. And yeah, some folks are just nuts. But nutty folk and propaganda is certainly not restricted to pro-lifers.;)

 

I don't assume my children will abstain from sex as teens - I know I didn't, and I wouldn't go back and change that fact if I could. I'd rather them go into their teen years fully informed about sex and all its ramifications than with half-truths and admonitions to "just say no" like many other teens end up experiencing. I know the general consensus here is that teen sex and premarital sex is wrong, no matter what - but I think responsible sex as an older teen/young adult is an acceptable course of action.

 

I don't know anyone that is assuming that? I know I don't. I assume that I need to be very vigilant with my children. I assume that I have to keep sending the same message and keep talking with them about relationships and life. I do think premarital sex is wrong. Not even for religious reasons. I think it's wrong because sex is a bonding event and sex always carries the risk of a pregnancy. I don't want my children to bond on such a level with someone they aren't fully commited to and who might not be fully committed to them. I certainly don't want them risking a pregnancy under those conditions.

 

Despite all that I'm very much aware that my kids have that dratted free will to make their own choices. ;) Some of those choices are sure to be very stupid ones. But yeah, I'm still going to admonish them to not make those mistakes and make every effort to assist them in adverting making those big errors of judgement that could affect them for the rest of their life. If they do it anyway? Well, I'll love them anyway, but I sure won't encourage them to continue down what I feel is a destructive path.

 

As for half-truths? Who here has said to give half-truths? I'm very honest with my kids and I don't feel I'm telling them half-truths.:confused:

[Murphy101]

I truly believe that for my particular personality, a very matter-of-fact attitude about sex would have been the best. Turning it into something naughty, or something you "just don't do", only made ME more curious. I never had any intention of waiting until marriage, and wanted to experience everything possible as soon as possible.

 

And if she decides to wait, it will not be because it's what she's been told she SHOULD do, but because it's what SHE wants to do. I can't think of any better reason than that.

 

I really think this is a misunderstanding about people such as myself. It's assumed I'm lying, sheltering, or giving half-truths or telling my kids how evil and sinful sex is. That is absolutely NOT true of myself or any other like-minded person I know.:confused: I've never told my kids sex was anything like that. My kids do know far more about birth control, abortion, and such than I'd like. I've always been honest with them about it. And about why I think it's wrong.

 

As for the attitude that she should only do what she wants to do - I completely do not understand this attitude. LOTS of things in life should be done because it's what SHOULD be done. Wanting to do it certainly makes it easier when it's what a person should do, but not wanting to do it doesn't make it right to not do it. (Otherwise, I'd never ever wash a toilet or dish again!!;))

 

Why is telling my kids something is wrong a bad thing? Why is telling my kids what they should do or shouldn't do to make good life choices a bad thing? Why is it portrayed as me turning sex into something dirty or lying to my kids? It's my job as their mother to teach them right from wrong and why those things are the way they are. I don't have to lie to them, tell them half-truths, or turn sex into something nasty to do that.

[Academy of Jedi Arts]

See now, I don't get this. If you want to teach your child that, well it's your perogative as their parent, but what's that got to do with the posters and such? Are you saying you wouldn't teach her she has the option of having sex if the posters weren't there? I don't understand why it's okay to push this stuff everywhere. If you want to teach your children different than me about sex, I completely understand and accept that, but what about MY right to teach my kids different and not wanting them to think those things are okay? Why shoudl I have to have to deal with those posters?

 

Why should I have to "deal with" propaganda from the right wing? Because it is a free country, that's why.

 

Why can't others just use the posters as a teaching tool if a child sees them? We drove by a pro-life demonstration once and that was a great teaching experience for my daughter. I didn't blame the protesters for teaching my daughter that harassing women coming to a clinic (my opinion) was okay. Are you not secure enough in what you teach your children to the point a poster is going to undermine that? It's not like someone is holding a gun to your head and forcing you to put a condom on your son. It's just a poster.

 

You have the right to teach your children anything you want. You have the right to stay inside your home so that you or your children never have to see or hear anything that differs from your views. However, when you are out in the world, one must accept a variety of viewpoints and opinions- some of which we will not agree with.

[genie]

I really think this is a misunderstanding about people such as myself. It's assumed I'm lying, sheltering, or giving half-truths or telling my kids how evil and sinful sex is. That is absolutely NOT true of myself or any other like-minded person I know.:confused: I've never told my kids sex was anything like that. My kids do know far more about birth control, abortion, and such than I'd like. I've always been honest with them about it. And about why I think it's wrong.

 

I was speaking about my personal experience of how I was raised, in addition to how I watched my friends being raised, and additionally how I've watched some of my friends raise their children. I've seen it enough times to have a pretty accurate understanding of the situation I'm discussing. I don't think I ever implied that you or anyone here was doing the same.

 

As for the attitude that she should only do what she wants to do - I completely do not understand this attitude. LOTS of things in life should be done because it's what SHOULD be done. Wanting to do it certainly makes it easier when it's what a person should do, but not wanting to do it doesn't make it right to not do it. (Otherwise, I'd never ever wash a toilet or dish again!!;))

 

That's not what I was saying, at all. I never said, nor do I think I implied she "should only" do what she wants to do. My point is that the best kind of motivation is self-motivation. I don't disagree with what you've said above, it's just not reflective of the point I was trying to make.

 

Why is telling my kids something is wrong a bad thing? Why is telling my kids what they should do or shouldn't do to make good life choices a bad thing? Why is it portrayed as me turning sex into something dirty or lying to my kids? It's my job as their mother to teach them right from wrong and why those things are the way they are. I don't have to lie to them, tell them half-truths, or turn sex into something nasty to do that.

 

Again, you're personalizing my post way too much here. I was telling of my experience, not making implications about yours.

[Murphy101]

Why should I have to "deal with" propaganda from the right wing? Because it is a free country, that's why.

 

hmm, I have no problem with that to some extent. However, in a state run health dept, it's MY tax dollars that contribute to that poster. And if it was really about freedom, there'd be a poster right next to it saying birth control is considered wrong by some people for blank reasons. But there NEVER is. I've been in state health depts over the years and I've never once seen NFP promoted on a poster or seen them allow a segment of society put up a poster promoting the negatives of birth control.

 

Freedom of press on signs and freedom to protest on sidewalks? yep, I agree everyone is entitled to an opinion however much I disagree with them.

 

But that's not the case with a health dept poster. That's not individuals or private entities advertising something or a stance. That's the gov't. And I shouldn't have to pay for that or deal with it in gov't building anymore than you'd appreciate paying for a gov't poster in a gov't building promoting my POV.

 

Why can't others just use the posters as a teaching tool if a child sees them?

 

Again who says we aren't doing that? I do. Others have said they do. The point was that they shouldn't have to in public gov't building.

 

Are you not secure enough in what you teach your children to the point a poster is going to undermine that? It's not like someone is holding a gun to your head and forcing you to put a condom on your son. It's just a poster.

 

Nope. Just advertising to him that any time he wants to ditch everything I've taught him and head to the local clinic, the society and gov't will not only promote and encourage him to do so, they'll freaking pay for it and never let his parents find out.

 

And yes, I think that undermines a LOT of parents and sends a very negative message to kids.

 

when you are out in the world, one must accept a variety of viewpoints and opinions- some of which we will not agree with.

 

True to some extent. Trust me, I'm well aware that practicing catholic homeschoolers raising 8+ kids are in minority.;)

 

My issue is that it's gov't approved and in a public building (the health dept) and the opposing view in not given equal space and discussion. I wonder how many women ever hear that it's okay to not use birth control, pregnancy will not ruin their life, it's okay to have the baby? I'm betting few and far between. Maybe if they were genuinely given ALL options/perspectives, those other women wouldn't feel the need to stand on sidewalk to get the message out? I know I sure never heard it when I was on state assistance. And I was married to a good man and had 2 kids. God only knows what kind of pressure is put on some ignorant teenager!

[Murphy101]

I don't think I ever implied that you or anyone here was doing the same.

 

That's not what I was saying, at all. I never said, nor do I think I implied she "should only" do what she wants to do. My point is that the best kind of motivation is self-motivation. I don't disagree with what you've said above, it's just not reflective of the point I was trying to make.

 

 

No, I know you didn't mean me personally. I asked because these are things I hear a LOT from the opposing view and I honestly don't get it because I don't think I do any such things and I don't know many who do. A few, but not most. Some are more because they are "city folk" than anything. LOL I did have one hs-er leave my home because she was horrified that dogs were um going at it and didn't want her kids exposed to sex.:confused: I also had one gasp at me for letting my kids watch a documentary about penguins because it showed the mating.:lol: Whatever.

 

I agree about self-motivation although I don't agree with your POV on sex being okay for the unmarried.:) I guess, like you, I've met some extreme "I'll never make my kid to anything they don't want" folks and based my question on that. And yes, some of them have teens that would :svengo:if they ever had to clean a toilet or do a load of dishes.;)

[genie]

I agree about self-motivation although I don't agree with your POV on sex being okay for the unmarried.

 

I didn't say that was my POV. ;)

[Academy of Jedi Arts]

hmm, I have no problem with that to some extent. However, in a state run health dept, it's MY tax dollars that contribute to that poster. And if it was really about freedom, there'd be a poster right next to it saying birth control is considered wrong by some people for blank reasons. But there NEVER is. I've been in state health depts over the years and I've never once seen NFP promoted on a poster or seen them allow a segment of society put up a poster promoting the negatives of birth control.

 

Freedom of press on signs and freedom to protest on sidewalks? yep, I agree everyone is entitled to an opinion however much I disagree with them.

 

But that's not the case with a health dept poster. That's not individuals or private entities advertising something or a stance. That's the gov't. And I shouldn't have to pay for that or deal with it in gov't building anymore than you'd appreciate paying for a gov't poster in a gov't building promoting my POV.

 

Ahhh- don't assume what I would think of a poster that was pro-abstinence or promoted adoption or parenthood being in the health clinic. I'm all for it.

 

My tax dollars pay for that stuff too. Have you ever ASKED about putting up a different kind of poster? Have you gone to your local representatives to talk about putting up an alternative poster?

 

Where I disagree with you is in putting up a poster that says some people believe this is wrong for x reasons. A health department is not a church or a place to otherwise proselytize. A poster that provides information or portrays abstinence or adoption in a positive light, I'm all for it. A list of why SOME people believe birth control is wrong does not belong in a health dept. There are other places people can go for that kind of information.

 

Nope. Just advertising to him that any time he wants to ditch everything I've taught him and head to the local clinic, the society and gov't will not only promote and encourage him to do so, they'll freaking pay for it and never let his parents find out.

 

And yes, I think that undermines a LOT of parents and sends a very negative message to kids.

A negative message in your opinion. And there is nothing that can prevent any child from ditching the values of their parents. We are raising human beings with unique personalities, opinions, and goals.

 

My issue is that it's gov't approved and in a public building (the health dept) and the opposing view in not given equal space and discussion. I wonder how many women ever hear that it's okay to not use birth control, pregnancy will not ruin their life, it's okay to have the baby? I'm betting few and far between. Maybe if they were genuinely given ALL options/perspectives, those other women wouldn't feel the need to stand on sidewalk to get the message out? I know I sure never heard it when I was on state assistance. And I was married to a good man and had 2 kids. God only knows what kind of pressure is put on some ignorant teenager!

If I were to go to my local phone book yellow pages right now, there are two sections for pregnancy counseling that are clearly labeled. One section is for agencies that do not and will not provide information about abortion. The other is for places that provide abortions or will provide information about obtaining one. Women have a choice as to which agency they would like to call. From what I know, a great many women visit both types before making their own personal decision based on the information presented.

[Murphy101]

I didn't say that was my POV. ;)

 

oops. my bad. my apologies:blush:

 

Ahhh- don't assume what I would think of a poster that was pro-abstinence or promoted adoption or parenthood being in the health clinic. I'm all for it.

 

My tax dollars pay for that stuff too. Have you ever ASKED about putting up a different kind of poster? Have you gone to your local representatives to talk about putting up an alternative poster?

 

They won't have any of it. It's not approved or funded social health practices.

 

Where I disagree with you is in putting up a poster that says some people believe this is wrong for x reasons. A health department is not a church or a place to otherwise proselytize. A poster that provides information or portrays abstinence or adoption in a positive light, I'm all for it. A list of why SOME people believe birth control is wrong does not belong in a health dept. There are other places people can go for that kind of information.

 

Okay then. By the same note they shouldn't be allowed to say or portray teen pregnancy as wrong? I agree a health dept is not the place to proselytize, but they most certainly do have their own agenda and they absolutely do push it.

 

A negative message in your opinion. And there is nothing that can prevent any child from ditching the values of their parents. We are raising human beings with unique personalities, opinions, and goals.

 

Sure we are. But I'm not advocating that your kids never have to tell you about what they are doing or telling them I'll pay for them to do what they want behind your back either. BIG difference.

 

If I were to go to my local phone book yellow pages right now, there are two sections for pregnancy counseling that are clearly labeled. One section is for agencies that do not and will not provide information about abortion. The other is for places that provide abortions or will provide information about obtaining one. Women have a choice as to which agency they would like to call. From what I know, a great many women visit both types before making their own personal decision based on the information presented.

 

One: many women do not get those options because if they are poor and on state asssitance, they are sent to state agencies - health dept or planned parenthood.

 

 

Two: Grown women are seperate from young dumb teens, in my mind, or they should be.

 

Not once did my public highschool EVER say that we had the option of going to blank organizations. Nope. There was the state clinic or planned parenthood. And they were/are heavily promoted and encouraged and easy. Teens and women who enter those facilities are told they are being given all their options when they might not be (for example if a girl doesn't want an abortion, they don't give her a list of charitiable organizations that will help her). They are told it is free and easy and gov't sanctioned and no one ever has to know. Teens are not known for shopping around for clothes, do you really think they are going to shop from clinic to clinic in the yellow pages when told they can just go to blank for one stop hasslel free bargain shopping services? These are minors and they aren't ready to be making medical decisions without parental guidance, esp decisions that could affect the rest of their lives.

 

This is the problem. The gov't has no business in any capacity telling my kids or your kids about sex and birth control options. (basic human biology is fine - a crash course in medical ethics and family planning is not part of that, imo) That's what parents are supposed to do and should be forced to step up and do.

 

If my kid wants to have sex, I can't stop them and I know that same as you do. But I sure as heck shouldn't have to wonder if some yahoo at a state clinic (or lack of planned parenthood) who doesn't know my kid is condoning and permitting them to go against what I've raised them to do and making it easy for them to choose to do what I have taught them is wrong.

 

Meeting people of different opinions and cultures and such does not bother me in the least. Enjoy it even.

 

People telling my kids they will provide medical procedures or prescriptions if they want it to deal with having sex - people telling my kids they'll keep such things secret from me so my kids can have sex behind my back - peopel thinking they know more about what is best and right for my kids than I do - my gov't paying those people to do that - those are things I have no respect for and think are wrong.

 

I would NEVER do that to you or your kid, even though I might strongly disagree with your opinion on those matters, they are YOUR kids. Not mine. Not the states.

[Carrie12345]

I have a question. Do state clinics generally advertise their services or otherwise make their availability known?

 

I mean, I found myself without health insurance just before I married my husband. I had a gynecological issue I needed to address (that whole 6-month pap thing.) I knew (and still know) nothing about state clinics. I *did* know that I could go get a pap at Planned Parenthood, and so I did.

 

My impression (based on almost nothing) was that you had to be on public assistance to use a government clinic. I don't think I would have been approved and, from what I hear, it's a long process.

 

Just wondering.

[beansprouts]

Deleted - need more time to think this response through so it makes sense. I'll try again later ;-)

[Peek a Boo]

since abortion is a hot topic at my house, my guys have a pretty detailed working knowledge about sex and pregnancy. The poster in question doesn't bother me too much --I'd likely use it to launch into a moderately loud discussion about premarital sex and sexual irresponsibility. For as long as I was stuck waiting. but then again, i believe that even teens can be taught to control their actions --they aren't stupid.

 

i do agree that knowledge is imperative. I just find it ironic that witholding/denying what every credible human embryology textbook says about the beginnings of a human life is considered "knowledgeable."

 

and i absolutely agree that aborted fetuses are difficult to explain.

 

I just figgered I'd clarify for those who assume quite a bit that I would absolutely be happy to wait my turn and continue talking about the poster until it was rightfully my turn in line. I don't recall saying anything about forcing them to take me over another patron, but since I know the wait can be long sometimes, I wouldn't mind the long opportunity to explore the manymanymany different issues a poster like this could bring up.

 

:D

 

martha did mention one [of several] things that is a big issue for me too:

 

"But I'm not advocating that your kids never have to tell you about what they are doing or telling them I'll pay for them to do what they want behind your back either. BIG difference."

 

i do agree that as far as a health dept is concerned, opinions should be left off the wall. But i never see too much about side effects and other facts either. So yeah, I gotta agree w/ Martha [again] that much of the agenda we see is in what is NOT shared at the forefront.

[Cheryl in NM]

But...don't people have sex in large part because we have a powerful drive to reproduce? Isn't this drive what has kept humans alive on earth? In and of itself, sex is absolutely necessary-that's why teens throughout history have done it. It's just that in the past, teens were adults-they married, and lived as adults much earlier. Our society asks them to defer adult behaviors longer than is realistic, IMO.

 

Of course we have a drive to reproduce. Of course, historically, teenagers were having families. But nowadays our teenagers are starting their periods at 12 and 13 whereas a hundred years ago they started aroudn 16. That's a huge difference!

 

I can really only speak of my own experience. My son was conceived when I was 20 and unmarried.

 

While a appreciate your experience and position most of us on this thread are discussing the effects of a sexualized media on young children and teenagers. At 20 you know the facts of life and you know your choices.

 

Sex is a natural and normal thing. It is my belief God made it to bond a man and woman has husband and wife. It's not the act itself that is wrong, but the wrong use of the act. (outside of a marriage or abusively or otherwise contrary to God's purpose)

 

However, we aren't just wild rabbits without self control either. There's many things that are normal and natural, but we don't think are okay to do, esp. for teens. The excuse that hormones are just going to make them do it is a poor one. I think they are capable of more maturity than society gives them credit for, but because they are forced into an entitlement to extended adolesence, they act without thought to consequences.

 

YAY!!!!:iagree: Totally!

 

Again, I torn in agreement on this.

 

I once heard a good priest say that the only thing worse than feeling shame was being shameless. I completely agree. For some reason many people these days have no moral sense of shame when they do wrong. That nagging feeling in the pit of one's stomach that keeps them in check is missing for some reason. Or maybe just supressed or maybe they are just told they don't have to feel that way often enough that they believe it. I don't know. I'd rather my kids have a healthy sense of proper shame than to act shamelessly.

 

We are teaching ds to listen to that feeling in the pit of his stomach. We tried to teach the olders, but it didn't get through. That's what's wrong with society today. People are all about what they want instead of what they need to do. Adults are taking all the perks of being an adult, but not the responsibility. These adults are role models and the poor kids coming up don't have a chance. It makes me very sad.

 

Well, I WANT my 7 year old (and would have wanted her as a 3 year old and 4 year old) to see those posters, to ask about those posters. I am glad my daughter is growing up in a world where she has choices about her sex life the same way men have for decades. .

I believe this is completely irresponsible. A 3 and 4 year old do not need to know what abortion is. I can't imagine that swimming around in that young brain. How awful! Young girls should be taught to respect themselves. Always talking about sex and options for getting rid of a baby just teaches them to focus on sex and presents pre-marital sex as "the" way to go.

 

ITA. We do some contributions each Christmas through our homeschool group to the local AIDS counseling/testing center, so my kids have been exposed to posters about AIDS, condoms, and other STDs since before they could read - we're the family that brings all the donations in to them each year. We've had brief discussions about them, and about the purpose of the clinic. I don't assume my children will abstain from sex as teens - I know I didn't, and I wouldn't go back and change that fact if I could. I'd rather them go into their teen years fully informed about sex and all its ramifications than with half-truths and admonitions to "just say no" like many other teens end up experiencing. I know the general consensus here is that teen sex and premarital sex is wrong, no matter what - but I think responsible sex as an older teen/young adult is an acceptable course of action.

Again, I really think it's highly inappropriate to discuss STD's with young children. They will have their whole lives to learn about all the nastiness in the world and all the ways humans have invented to hurt each other. I'm a firm believer in letting a child's innocence alone.

 

I'm living proof that sheltering and teaching abstinence-only doesn't necessarily work. I've spent a lot of time analyzing what it was about my upbringing that led me to rebel so much in my teens years. Were there things my parents could have done differently, or was it just my nature? I truly believe that for my particular personality, a very matter-of-fact attitude about sex would have been the best. Turning it into something naughty, or something you "just don't do", only made ME more curious. I never had any intention of waiting until marriage, and wanted to experience everything possible as soon as possible.[\quote]

 

I too was very sheltered and did not chose to wait for adulthood much less marriage. I'm not saying we should shelter our children. I'm saying there is an age appropriate way to discuss things with them. I'm also say that I believe pre-marital sex in wrong and that's what I teach my son. We all pass our beliefs and morals on to our children. So I guess that makes us all skewed in some way.

 

My husband and I were not yet married when my daughter was conceived. She was not an unplanned pregnancy either. We did get married before she was born, as we had planned.

 

I am amazed at how many people ask me, "What are you going to tell her?" :confused: Like I need to make up some story or somehow be ashamed of the perfectly rational choices her father and I made.

 

I was pregnant at my wedding. Ds has always known that he was in my tummy at my wedding. As he got older we explained that we believe we should have waited until we were married. We make sure he understands that we love him very much and would definitely have had him. We just wish we would have been married sooner.

 

Why should I have to "deal with" propaganda from the right wing? Because it is a free country, that's why.

 

Why can't others just use the posters as a teaching tool if a child sees them? We drove by a pro-life demonstration once and that was a great teaching experience for my daughter. I didn't blame the protesters for teaching my daughter that harassing women coming to a clinic (my opinion) was okay. Are you not secure enough in what you teach your children to the point a poster is going to undermine that? It's not like someone is holding a gun to your head and forcing you to put a condom on your son. It's just a poster.

 

You have the right to teach your children anything you want. You have the right to stay inside your home so that you or your children never have to see or hear anything that differs from your views. However, when you are out in the world, one must accept a variety of viewpoints and opinions- some of which we will not agree with.

 

I agree that seeing things we disagree with while our children are with us are learning opportunities. But I don't believe these things should be government sanctioned. I'm an secure in what I teach my son, but he is at an impressionable age. Sometimes that's hard to work against.

 

Ahhh- don't assume what I would think of a poster that was pro-abstinence or promoted adoption or parenthood being in the health clinic. I'm all for it.

 

My tax dollars pay for that stuff too. Have you ever ASKED about putting up a different kind of poster? Have you gone to your local representatives to talk about putting up an alternative poster?

 

How about a poster of beautiful clouds with the light of heaven and God's hands reaching out and the words, "this could be yours if you wait until marriage". That's positive.

[Michele B]

I guess for those who think an 8 year old needs to know what to do "if the condom breaks," or the best way to treat herpes, feel free to have that discussion with your own kid. Don't make me have it with mine by placing inappropriate ads in inappropriate places.

 

.

 

Absolutely!!

 

I get really sick of being told how to parent by advertisements!!! I would love to see some stats on how effective those things are. Do people who just don't get parenting really drive by and see that and say "wow now I want to be a responsible parent?" I dislike commercials that tell me when to talk to my kids. I have parents who tell me how to parent constantly. It seems thre are other venues for parenting advice. I don't want to see people talk about herpes or rub their bottoms all over a chair becuase of hemmaroids, which I cannot spell, and do not get me started on on the men singing about getting home to their women so their viagra can work (quit singing the stupid song and get home already then) and that thing about an erection lasting more than four hours? I don't think that everything, whether it is true, important or whatever belongs in the public sphere. Yes kids need to know about sex. But do it in an afterschool program, do it at church - not on a billboard.

 

It takes away my parental right to discuss things when my child is ready in my own way!!!! I'm sorry there are places where 13-year olds push buggies - I know this is true - my husband is an attorney in a place where alot of those girls are carrying daddy's baby! A billboard will not fix that! That needs mentorship. And the strong arm of the law.

 

 

 

Michele

[Michele B]

"How about a poster of beautiful clouds with the light of heaven and God's hands reaching out and the words, "this could be yours if you wait until marriage". That's positive."

Umm.. that's not what the Christian faith teaches. People who did not wait, but receive forgiveness and purpose to lead a new life etc, have every hope of heaven.

 

That's the problem with short and pithy advertisements, they create a false idea and do more harm than good. The above statement leaves forgiveness and grace out of the Christian equation. Speaking as someone who did not wait ;)

 

 

Michele

[Cheryl in NM]

"How about a poster of beautiful clouds with the light of heaven and God's hands reaching out and the words, "this could be yours if you wait until marriage". That's positive."

 

Umm.. that's not what the Christian faith teaches. People who did not wait, but receive forgiveness and purpose to lead a new life etc, have every hope of heaven.

 

That's the problem with short and pithy advertisements, they create a false idea and do more harm than good. The above statement leaves forgiveness and grace out of the Christian equation. Speaking as someone who did not wait ;)

 

 

Michele

 

You're right, short and pithy leave out important details. Just like the b/c, e/c, and abortion posters do. That's the problem with using posters to educate kids about sex; they can't get the whole story. Kids aren't always going to ask questions about the posters they see. Their parents might not always see the posters to be able to start a dialogue with their kids.

[Michele B]

You're right, short and pithy leave out important details. Just like the b/c, e/c, and abortion posters do. That's the problem with using posters to educate kids about sex; they can't get the whole story. Kids aren't always going to ask questions about the posters they see. Their parents might not always see the posters to be able to start a dialogue with their kids.

 

Excellent!

 

Michele

[Academy of Jedi Arts]

I believe this is completely irresponsible. A 3 and 4 year old do not need to know what abortion is. I can't imagine that swimming around in that young brain. How awful! Young girls should be taught to respect themselves. Always talking about sex and options for getting rid of a baby just teaches them to focus on sex and presents pre-marital sex as "the" way to go.

 

This is your opinion, and I respect it, but since my daughter was able to read the Constitution at 4 years old, I have talked to her about women's rights, which includes Roe Vs. Wade and a woman's right to choose.

 

My daughter respects herself very much, and has very high self esteem. Trust, me- no boy or girl is going to get my daughter to do anything she does not want to do.

 

I do not view pre-marital sex as wrong. I think it is perfectly fine to test drive a model before you buy it. If not for pre-marital sex, my beautiful daughter would not be here- and NO she was NOT unplanned and I do not tell her that I wish I had married sooner because that is a lie.

 

I tell my daughter that she doesn't even have to have a man in her life if she wants to have a child, as long as she is prepared to raise and love that child (education, career, home established, etc). She knows successful single by choice moms, and I am glad these women can serve as positive role models for her.

 

I am glad that my tax dollars are going to educate teens about sex. Considering that my daughter's middle school friends are being exposed to oral sex, I think it is wise these kids learn that even oral sex is something you don't want to be doing without the fez on.

[Cheryl in NM]

This is your opinion, and I respect it, but since my daughter was able to read the Constitution at 4 years old, I have talked to her about women's rights, which includes Roe Vs. Wade and a woman's right to choose.

 

My daughter respects herself very much, and has very high self esteem. Trust, me- no boy or girl is going to get my daughter to do anything she does not want to do.

 

I do not view pre-marital sex as wrong. I think it is perfectly fine to test drive a model before you buy it. If not for pre-marital sex, my beautiful daughter would not be here- and NO she was NOT unplanned and I do not tell her that I wish I had married sooner because that is a lie.

 

I tell my daughter that she doesn't even have to have a man in her life if she wants to have a child, as long as she is prepared to raise and love that child (education, career, home established, etc). She knows successful single by choice moms, and I am glad these women can serve as positive role models for her.

 

I am glad that my tax dollars are going to educate teens about sex. Considering that my daughter's middle school friends are being exposed to oral sex, I think it is wise these kids learn that even oral sex is something you don't want to be doing without the fez on.

 

Just one thought here. Just because a child can read the Consitution (and VERY commendable for a 4 year old!) doesn't mean that she is ready to mentally and emotionally process what abortion actually is. That being said, you know your child best and you do what is best for her by your standards. Obviously, mine are different. I'm sincerely not trying to place myself above you, please don't take this to mean that. If it sounds like that it's just because I don't have the proper words to express myself.

 

That being said I think we just need to agree to disagree. I respect the fact that you have kept your cool in this dialogue; that's difficult when the POVs are so different. Thanks for sharing your opinions, but I have to respectfully disagree with you and I'll leave it at that.

[Murphy101]

I do not view pre-marital sex as wrong. I think it is perfectly fine to test drive a model before you buy it. [/qoute]

 

hmm. I don't even like that description "test drive a model" might apply to a material object being purchased. I don't consider any of my children to be on par with even the most expensive of cars. Far above such and worth a heck of a lot more than to be test driven like to floor display and discarded for a newer model or just a more comfortable ride.

 

All heck would brake loose if someone dating my kid said that about their relationship. Dh would totally spaz on the poor soul. *I* would be more hurt, sad, and worried that after all my efforts to teach my kids they deserve more and better than that - that such an attitude was the best they could want for themselves.

 

I say this as someone who didn't wait (wish I had), but whose dh did wait for her (altho not until the wedding night) and neither of us EVER viewed sex or relationships like that. :confused: And no dh and I weren't that way because of religious beliefs either. Neither of us were religious then or came from religious families. Dh still isn't religious. (Well he said he adores me this morning - does that count?;))

 

I am glad that my tax dollars are going to educate teens about sex. Considering that my daughter's middle school friends are being exposed to oral sex, I think it is wise these kids learn that even oral sex is something you don't want to be doing without the fez on.

 

Aside from just having to respectfully agree to disagree with your POV on sex, which I can do because that's why you are the parent of your kids and I have my own to parent....:)

 

That underlined section is the heart of the real disagreement onthis thread, imo.

 

I do not think my tax dollars should go towards something I feel parents should teach their own kids. I do not think it is my place or the gov't's place or your place to decide that they know more about what is wise to teach my kids or someone else's kids about sex and at least indirectly about sexual relationships than their parents - and yes that includes parents who might not teach it at all. The gov't and other parents need to mind their own bloomin' business and they sure shouldn't get my money for overstepping into my parenting.

 

Call me nuts but I don't trust the gov't or other parents to decide what is supposedly wise for my kids or my neighbors kids either for that matter.:glare:

 

Given our very different perspectives on sexual relationships, surely you can understand that? I mean, would you want your tax dollars going for what I think is wise for children to learn about sex and sexual relations? I'm thinking probably not?:)

[Jenny in Atl]

 

I do not think my tax dollars should go towards something I feel parents should teach their own kids. I do not think it is my place or the gov't's place or your place to decide that they know more about what is wise to teach my kids or someone else's kids about sex and at least indirectly about sexual relationships than their parents - and yes that includes parents who might not teach it at all. The gov't and other parents need to mind their own bloomin' business and they sure shouldn't get my money for overstepping into my parenting.

 

Call me nuts but I don't trust the gov't or other parents to decide what is supposedly wise for my kids or my neighbors kids either for that matter.:glare:

 

Given our very different perspectives on sexual relationships, surely you can understand that? I mean, would you want your tax dollars going for what I think is wise for children to learn about sex and sexual relations? I'm thinking probably not?:)

:iagree:

 

On this we can agree... I disagreed with the OP that the poster was almost phonographic. But, I do agree government is too involved in many areas of our lives which I feel it has no place. While I'm pro-choice, I'd rather private charities help fund them for mothers who can't afford them. Instead of posting a big ad about birth control, maybe there could be flyers available to those who choose to learn about their options. So many don't take care of themselves, because we have instilled the idea that others will. This can be said for both those of faith and w/o.

[Cheryl in NM]

:iagree:

 

On this we can agree... I disagreed with the OP that the poster was almost phonographic. But, I do agree government is too involved in many areas of our lives which I feel it has no place. While I'm pro-choice, I'd rather private charities help fund them for mothers who can't afford them. Instead of posting a big ad about birth control, maybe there could be flyers available to those who choose to learn about their options. So many don't take care of themselves, because we have instilled the idea that others will. This can be said for both those of faith and w/o.

 

I totaly agree with this also.

 

YAY! Some of us found something to agree on!:001_smile:

[Murphy101]

Sorry my snarkiness did not appeal to your sense of humor.

 

Honestly did not think you were being snarky, but rather serious.

My mistake?

I have family and have met others that have just that attitude and they are not being snarky about it at all. Sex is a commodity to them not much more evolved than car shopping. They think my notion of bonding with another to be ignorant and unsophisticated. They are not joking or being sarcastic when they use that exact phrase you used.

 

I am all for abstinence and adoption and all the other things being presented as options. However, I think that actual EDUCATION needs funding, and by education I mean teaching kids what AIDS and STDs are and how to prevent them- which includes birth control and abstainance. As much as I would like all kids to wait to 18 to experiment with sex, REALITY dictates that is NOT going to happen.

 

Again, not one person here is arguing that kids have free will and might, maybe even probably, choose to have sex.

 

I'm not saying girls shouldn't know what a pe**s is or that boys shouldn't know what a uterus is. That's basic biology. No problem.

 

Primary and even most secondary education usually doesn't include medical ethics/decisions and sexual relationships and disease specific prevention/treatment. It certain never suggests that students can seek such care without the permission and knowledge of their parents. I see absolutely no reason why birth control and sex should be exempted from those policies.

 

Education should no more include birth control options and sex and providers than it includes various methods of cancer treatments and heart surgeries - those are individual MEDICAL choices that are best educated from a medical professional with the support and care of family members. I feel the same way about sex ed.

 

As for birth control preventing AIDs and STDs - oh man NOT going there. THAT is one huge other debate.:leaving::D