Dory Posted August 2, 2014 Share Posted August 2, 2014 Ok, so God "allows" kids with cancer to die but doesn't cause the cancer or death? Not sure how that is any better given that he is God and supposedly has a certain level of power... I was told once, for this one, that cancer is in the world because we live in a fallen world, so it was brought here because of sin deteriorating everything. God supposedly doesn't stop what our own sinful actions through the numerous generations has done and so we end up with people that have disease and cancer. That was kinda the explanation I was given anyway, if I'm remembering that right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scrub Jay Posted August 2, 2014 Share Posted August 2, 2014 Sounds lovely. Um, ok, then kids hit by busses, molested by trusted adults, murdered when riding their bikes, etc... Or is that Fallen World excusable as well? BTW, Fallen World is totally my new band's name. Called it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dory Posted August 2, 2014 Share Posted August 2, 2014 Sounds lovely. Um, ok, then kids hit by busses, molested by trusted adults, murdered when riding their bikes, etc... Or is that Fallen World excusable as well? BTW, Fallen World is totally my new band's name. Called it! Well my PTSD was explained as living in a sinful fallen world with sinful people and what happened to me was the result of their sin. What would bug me back when I was being told that is the same people would praise God everytime someone managed to escape some bad situation or avoid an accident and I would wonder why those people got to be saved from those situations and I didn't. It didn't make sense to me. If God was able to save some from being hurt by others sin, then why wouldn't he save all kids from that, or all people who believed in Him, or something more then what was happening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scrub Jay Posted August 2, 2014 Share Posted August 2, 2014 Well, don't you know God works in mysterious ways? <end scene> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SemiSweet Posted August 2, 2014 Share Posted August 2, 2014 Exodus 12:29New International Version (NIV) 29 At midnight the Lord struck down all the firstborn in Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn of the prisoner, who was in the dungeon, and the firstborn of all the livestock as well. God most certainly does kill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joanne Posted August 2, 2014 Share Posted August 2, 2014 I think that sense of freedom and peace after coming to terms with non-belief has been a theme in this thread. I think when people feel sorry for me they really are projecting their own imagined sense of loss, rather than responding to my own experience. I don't claim non belief but I sure felt free, liberated, relieved and finally REAL when I was out of the deconversion closet. I have an eclectic spiritual practice - all exclusive judgmental religions would deny me. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeaConquest Posted August 2, 2014 Share Posted August 2, 2014 The unsaved, imo, thinks erroneously about Christians - thinking that we should be perfect. That won't be until believers are in eternity with Jesus! :) Too bad the unsaved are just sh*t out of luck. Gah, how can people spout this hurtful garbage and think it is somehow motivating? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ocelotmom Posted August 2, 2014 Share Posted August 2, 2014 Just because a person is saved doesn't mean we are perfect. We are all imperfect but our perspective has changed. The unsaved, imo, thinks erroneously about Christians - thinking that we should be perfect. That won't be until believers are in eternity with Jesus! :) No, I don't think that. I know Christians are just people, and as fallible as anyone else. I love and respect many Christians, despite knowing they aren't perfect. I simply don't believe the same thing they do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Above The Rowan Posted August 2, 2014 Share Posted August 2, 2014 What a great thread, I've loved reading everyone's ideas. Well... mostly everyone's. I was born/raised Catholic, went to a old school Catholic school (in which there were still nuns who would not hesitate to give a lil whack with their yardstick across our hands), was very involved in our parish and community as a child/young teen. Then, I realized that for me, the bible really was just about as holy as any other book of fables or myths or fairy tales. Great to read, maybe you learn a thing or two, but not from god. I have had horrible experiences with other 'christians'. I can't really get behind some of the politics that seem to intertwine with christian faiths, and I just find myself thinking "wait... what?" a lot when I think about people following the bible as truth. It's as absurd to me, personally, as it would be to pick up my daughter's collection of Grimm's and turn that into some religious doctrine. I did a brief stint as an atheist, but then I realized that atheism for me, was just too far in the opposite swing of the spectrum. I do believe in something greater than us, and I do think there is something miraculous about life. I just can NOT believe in the divinity of the bible, nor in Jesus, and so right there I think that excludes me from any form of Christianity. I've really spent a lot of time seeking, and wondering, and digging in deep to find out what I do or don't believe. I lean heavily towards Buddhist thinking, but am finding my home as an Attender at a Quaker Meeting. So far, it's working out. Except for the fact that I can't attend regularly, as I don't have a Meeting in my hometown, I have to travel to go to one. Anyhow. I am absolutely and irrefutably NOT CHRISTIAN, and can't imagine ever in this life going back into any form of it. But that doesn't mean I don't believe in other ways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cammie Posted August 2, 2014 Share Posted August 2, 2014 Reading through this thread has helped me clarify a few things about why I am not "religious" or the right kind of "Christian" any more. First, of course, the condescension and self-righteousness of those who fancy themselves "true believers." These people who claim to be at the very heart of their religion, to have very close personal relationships with their god, seems to show the ugliest attitudes towards everyone else. If that is what being close to god gets you...no thanks. Second, it seems as if you have to be willing to wear blinders and engage in a certain level of self-deception and circular reasoning in order to be a "true Christian." You have to be willing to cherry pick from your most sacred and infallible book and ignore what you don't like (or what doesn't fit current cultural standards.) Everything is to be taken literally (except those pesky rules on what to wear and what to eat because...yuck.) There seems to be zero awareness that what is espoused now, at this time, in America, is not in fact a representation of what Christianity has been through the ages. So, yes, while there are bad people of every stripe it is the bad people who cling to Christianity that have turned me off. And I am simply not willing to put on the blinders and jump through the hoops required to be a "true" Christian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheryl Posted August 2, 2014 Share Posted August 2, 2014 Right, God "struck down" and killed. That is true however most murders are man against man. However, did he kill the unborn baby? Or, was it an act of the mother? Or, did He kill the workers in the towers? The Bible is a historical book to be used as our plumb line so to speak. We are to learn from it. Reference was made to non-Bible accounts. Did He kill President Kennedy? No, He did not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheryl Posted August 2, 2014 Share Posted August 2, 2014 Too bad the unsaved are just sh*t out of luck. Gah, how can people spout this hurtful garbage and think it is somehow motivating? Why do you think you are ****!!!! out of luck, as you put it? Please enlighten me as to how you were hurt as none was intended on my part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheryl Posted August 2, 2014 Share Posted August 2, 2014 Too bad the unsaved are just sh*t out of luck. Gah, how can people spout this hurtful garbage and think it is somehow motivating? Why do you think you are ****!!!! out of luck, as you put it? Please enlighten me as to how you were hurt as none was intended on my part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SemiSweet Posted August 2, 2014 Share Posted August 2, 2014 My trek toward atheism started with a seemingly harmless parenting class that was followed religiously by almost all of the members of my church. It was called Growing Kids Gods Way, written by the same guy who did Babywise. This class taught about how even small babies are sinners and that starting as young as 3-6 months you should put them on a blanket and smack them when they got off of it. I am and have always been a more attachment oriented parent, but I left that class feeling very conflicted. Of course I wanted to grow my kid "gods way"! The next day I set up this prescribed routine with my toddler, worst day ever, glad I only made it one day. That was probably the first chink in the armor. My exh was an addict and despite many prayers, would just not pull himself together, so I left. Then I started getting an education, reading, taking science classes, etc. A previous poster nailed it when she said once you start thinking it's hard to stop. I was raised as a Christian but we didn't go to church regularly and really didn't do anything religious, I just always believed so that was my default. My relatively brief stint as a church going Christian (probably about 5 years) led to me to believe that it's just not real. I look back at the person I was and am just amazed and horrified honestly. I was so judgemental, so out of touch with reality. Leaving my faith has been the best thing that ever happened to me. My life is a thousand times better, happier, more fulfilling. What I see in so many (not all) Christians now is exactly like looking back at myself, it makes me very sad for them, often. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SemiSweet Posted August 2, 2014 Share Posted August 2, 2014 What a great thread, I've loved reading everyone's ideas. Well... mostly everyone's. I was born/raised Catholic, went to a old school Catholic school (in which there were still nuns who would not hesitate to give a lil whack with their yardstick across our hands), was very involved in our parish and community as a child/young teen. Then, I realized that for me, the bible really was just about as holy as any other book of fables or myths or fairy tales. Great to read, maybe you learn a thing or two, but not from god. I have had horrible experiences with other 'christians'. I can't really get behind some of the politics that seem to intertwine with christian faiths, and I just find myself thinking "wait... what?" a lot when I think about people following the bible as truth. It's as absurd to me, personally, as it would be to pick up my daughter's collection of Grimm's and turn that into some religious doctrine. I did a brief stint as an atheist, but then I realized that atheism for me, was just too far in the opposite swing of the spectrum. I do believe in something greater than us, and I do think there is something miraculous about life. I just can NOT believe in the divinity of the bible, nor in Jesus, and so right there I think that excludes me from any form of Christianity. I've really spent a lot of time seeking, and wondering, and digging in deep to find out what I do or don't believe. I lean heavily towards Buddhist thinking, but am finding my home as an Attender at a Quaker Meeting. So far, it's working out. Except for the fact that I can't attend regularly, as I don't have a Meeting in my hometown, I have to travel to go to one. Anyhow. I am absolutely and irrefutably NOT CHRISTIAN, and can't imagine ever in this life going back into any form of it. But that doesn't mean I don't believe in other ways. I think the politics is probably the biggest factor at this point for me. Looking strictly at Christs words and actions and applying them to conservative ideology, it just does not jive. I could never go back to Christianity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Lulu* Posted August 2, 2014 Share Posted August 2, 2014 I was told once, for this one, that cancer is in the world because we live in a fallen world, so it was brought here because of sin deteriorating everything. God supposedly doesn't stop what our own sinful actions through the numerous generations has done and so we end up with people that have disease and cancer. That was kinda the explanation I was given anyway, if I'm remembering that right. Well my PTSD was explained as living in a sinful fallen world with sinful people and what happened to me was the result of their sin. What would bug me back when I was being told that is the same people would praise God everytime someone managed to escape some bad situation or avoid an accident and I would wonder why those people got to be saved from those situations and I didn't. It didn't make sense to me. If God was able to save some from being hurt by others sin, then why wouldn't he save all kids from that, or all people who believed in Him, or something more then what was happening. I got a conveluted version of that more than once. I was sexually abused in the church because of the fallen world we live in. I had nightmares and a laundry list of other PTSD symptoms because I had not forgiven my abusers or confessed my sins connected to the abuse. God didn't cause the abuse, but meant it to refine me. God didn't stop the abuse because it was part of his larger plan. All the trouble I've faced since the abuse are because of the ungodly ways I reacted and dealt with the abuse. The best, God puts us in situations that stretch us and teach us until we learn the lessons we need to learn I suppose I must be extra stupid that it took me so many years of being abused to learn my needed lessons. >please read the above with thick sarcasm and a touch of bitterness< Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
[email protected] Posted August 2, 2014 Share Posted August 2, 2014 This thread is closing because 1) Many of you cannot maintain civility, and 2) The rest of you are busy reporting #1. Moderator Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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