carlamom2ansnm Posted July 24, 2014 Share Posted July 24, 2014 I think tutors and directors are absolutely ICs (I don't have first hand knowledge of how the levels above that work, so I can't comment on those). An IC needs to provide their own tools to do their own job, and provide the completed service as contracted. This is why tutors have to buy their own books, boards, etc. The director provides the items for the STUDENTS, but cannot provide anything for the tutor, because the tutor is an IC and needs to provide that on her own. And I don't know about you, but no one has told me how I need to tutor. They've told me what they want accomplished at the end of the day, and given me ideas to help things along, but never "sing this song, have them write out this work, etc". The way I structure the class is up to me, as the contracted tutor, who is an IC. As for a director, they can choose what projects they want to provide supplies for, they can choose what days and hours they want to run their community and they can choose how they want to do many other things. These are all things an IC is able to choose. I really don't see that tutors and directors qualify as employees at all, and personally, I'm happy about that. I'm proud of being able to run my class the way I want, do as much or as little training as I want, and hold my "business" the way I want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carlamom2ansnm Posted July 24, 2014 Share Posted July 24, 2014 Sorry, I don't buy the practicum training as a reason they're an employee either. No one says which practicum you have to go to, and they're not going to hire an IC that is not qualified. If I hire an electrician as an IC to fix the wiring in my house, I'm not going to be able to dictate WHICH electrical school they got their training from, but I will be able to be confident that they have the required training to complete the job appropriately. I would never contract an electrician that wasn't trained ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
classicalfam Posted July 24, 2014 Author Share Posted July 24, 2014 Sorry, I don't buy the practicum training as a reason they're an employee either. No one says which practicum you have to go to, and they're not going to hire an IC that is not qualified. If I hire an electrician as an IC to fix the wiring in my house, I'm not going to be able to dictate WHICH electrical school they got their training from, but I will be able to be confident that they have the required training to complete the job appropriately. I would never contract an electrician that wasn't trained ;) Where does the electrician get their training? From the company or person who contracted them, or elsewhere? One characteristic of an IC is that they are trained in the task that they are performing for the company - no specialized training necessary. Another consideration of IC/employee is whether the job they are performing is integral to the business. CC communities could not exist without the Directors and tutors so they are integral. Don't miss the forest for the trees. Another consideration with respect to the practicums is this: CC needs Director/tutors. CC wants the Director/tutors to be trained well. CC mandates Director/tutor training. CC needs to make this training happen. CC pays their employees to make what they mandate happen. WRONG! CC approaches these same Directors/tutors to work the practicum as volunteers or for near volunteer wages to provide the training that CC mandates. It is very early in the morning but there is something not quite right about this scenario for a for-profit business. Again, iffy and I'd like the IRS to let me know if it is above board. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
classicalfam Posted July 24, 2014 Author Share Posted July 24, 2014 Continuing on from my last post . . . . If you are/have been a Director, were you ever informed of the gravity of classifying your tutors as ICs? CC may cover it - I don't remember so I sincerely wish to know from other Directors - are you being made aware of this from CC? Do you realize that if I don't file the ss8, someone else could or the IRS could do a random audit and my understanding is that CC could be forced to convert all ICs to employees. Or they could find CC above board but you as a Director having misclassified your tutors and you could be fined and have back taxes to pay. thegeyser cares about this because she is informed. I care about this because of my recent experience and I started researching the issue. You should care about this too! If you have a Director who has given you the freedoms due an IC in as much as she can within the CC set-up, call her right now and thank her! She is the most vulnerable within the CC system and the only upside for her is you and the others in her community who thank her for all she does and support her through the tough times. I am on her side in this!!! thegeyser is on her side! She needs you by her side as well so don't let her be uninformed and unsupported. Call her today and let her know that you are so thankful for everything she does:) and then tell her about this thread because she really needs to know about this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forgiven Posted July 24, 2014 Share Posted July 24, 2014 NM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
classicalfam Posted July 24, 2014 Author Share Posted July 24, 2014 This is a great summary of the rights of an independent contractor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boysrus Posted July 24, 2014 Share Posted July 24, 2014 The fact that CC offers training at all screams employee. My husband owns a business and he's NEVER offered training to an IC. We're a business, not a trade school. Employess however, require training. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G5052 Posted July 24, 2014 Share Posted July 24, 2014 The fact that CC offers training at all screams employee. My husband owns a business and he's NEVER offered training to an IC. We're a business, not a trade school. Employess however, require training. Actually it isn't uncommon to require an IC to have a little training, but not to "qualify" them for the job, just to orient them to certain aspects of the job that they may not be familiar with. I've had to do this a few times, but nothing more than a few videos to watch or a half-day seminar. Three days? I don't know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NCMom Posted July 24, 2014 Share Posted July 24, 2014 Actually it isn't uncommon to require an IC to have a little training, but not to "qualify" them for the job, just to orient them to certain aspects of the job that they may not be familiar with. I've had to do this a few times, but nothing more than a few videos to watch or a half-day seminar. Three days? I don't know. There is also the financial training that Challenge tutors go to ( I assume they still do this), so it isn't only 3 days... Georgia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
classicalfam Posted July 24, 2014 Author Share Posted July 24, 2014 For tutors it is three days, but for Directors. . . it is two practicums (one for Essentials and Foundations) and Director Business Training and then they have a Learning Pathways site that tracks what webinars you have watched . . .. Then, if you stop being a Director or tutor, they have a non-compete clause because you now know their proprietary information. . . Do you see why this is all very iffy as an IC classification? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G5052 Posted July 24, 2014 Share Posted July 24, 2014 For tutors it is three days, but for Directors. . . it is two practicums (one for Essentials and Foundations) and Director Business Training and then they have a Learning Pathways site that tracks what webinars you have watched . . .. Then, if you stop being a Director or tutor, they have a non-compete clause because you now know their proprietary information. . . Do you see why this is all very iffy as an IC classification? Yes, I forgot about that. And they have to do it all every year, don't they? Having worked under solid IC agreements, CC is indeed very different. The one I signed yesterday is for three weeks and is fixed-price. I work from home, and basically make sure that the product meets their expectations, using my expertise and anything else I need. No training was needed, and this helps them out with a short-term need that they had to address quickly. I did similar work for them a few months ago, but I have no expectation that they'll call me again. They've implied that they may have projects like this here and there for the next year or two, but no guarantees. I'm a crunch time fill-in, not someone that they need on an ongoing basis. That's how most IC's are handled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CAMom Posted July 24, 2014 Share Posted July 24, 2014 For tutors it is three days, but for Directors. . . it is two practicums (one for Essentials and Foundations) and Director Business Training and then they have a Learning Pathways site that tracks what webinars you have watched . . .. Then, if you stop being a Director or tutor, they have a non-compete clause because you now know their proprietary information. . . Do you see why this is all very iffy as an IC classification? Interesting. This is my first year as a tutor and I didn't think anything about the training. Since it wasn't a full three days (it's 3 hrs a day during the practicum) and it wasn't a policies and procedures type thing, I didn't think much of it. I have no experience with director requirements. How would these things differ from something like Pampered Chef? Don't they have training seminars? I know they are an MLM which CC is not. Just thinking it through since it just came onto my radar through this thread. Lots of information to think through. Thanks for the discussion! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
classicalfam Posted July 24, 2014 Author Share Posted July 24, 2014 It is all very puzzling to me really. At times when I am thinking through it, I think perhaps there is a way to legitimize the IC classification and at other times, I think this could not be legitimate. So, I fluctuate. If I submit the form and the IRS says it is legitimate, I will be thankful. At least this discussion would equip those in CC with a healthy respect for everyone's rights as ICs. If the IRS says it is not legitimate, I won't be surprised and may have some penalties and back taxes coming my way:( I haven't compared it with Pampered Chef and others because CC seems to be exercising so much more control prima facie. But, perhaps they can justify that control to the IRS . . .. I just don't know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doodlebug Posted July 24, 2014 Share Posted July 24, 2014 Thank you for sharing your thoughts, experiences, wisdom and moral encouragement on this issue! My experience is when a post like Stella's happens, the discussion goes downhill from there so if you would like to further discuss this, please send personal messages. I will take your comments into consideration when making my decision! A post like mine? I'm sorry that in questioning the moral integrity of a company/individual, you didn't expect that your own would be relevant. It wasn't a personal attack, but a stated hesitation due to what I perceived as redirecting and inconsistency -- both of which do nothing for your credibility. There are several inconsistencies I find troubling in your posts. The least of which is that you will be putting your family back into CC to benefit from a business model you are so troubled by. Ill leave it at that... Peace, Stella Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
classicalfam Posted July 24, 2014 Author Share Posted July 24, 2014 Stella, I am questioning whether CC workers are being classified appropriately. Based on the evidence, what is your perspective? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Twain Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 OP, Stella is making good points. I agree with the sentiment that it doesn't make sense to put your kids in a program which you think is being run by unethical people. Personally, I don't think you will get anywhere with the IRS. The CC attorneys will easily justify IC status. Attracting attention to your own tax returns and ending your relationship with CC in a negative manner may be the only results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
classicalfam Posted July 25, 2014 Author Share Posted July 25, 2014 OP, Stella is making good points. I agree with the sentiment that it doesn't make sense to put your kids in a program which you think is being run by unethical people. Personally, I don't think you will get anywhere with the IRS. The CC attorneys will easily justify IC status. Attracting attention to your own tax returns and ending your relationship with CC in a negative manner may be the only results. I am not asking for your opinion about where my kids are educated; I am asking what you think about how CC classifies their workers. Filing an ss8 form does not mean my relationship with CC will end negatively . . . it is illegal and unethical to retaliate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davysmom Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 The tricky part with IC status is it's not black and white. It's not clear cut. It's not a simple checklist of what must be done or can't be done. It's more of an overall evaluation of the whole relationship. I don't know it that make sense. It's late...;0 It's very much a gray area (as someone else mentioned.) Each point can have a logic and legal rationalization. The ss8 has many subjective questions. Training might push things toward employee, but every company I have been in an IC for has training. My role has been integral with each company too. I wasn't integral, but my "job" was. They needed someone, but anyone can fill the role. I would guess this is a lot like being a CC director/tutor. You have to have one, but it doesn't have to be "Sally." You stepped out the role as director and someone else stepped in. That means you weren't integral to the company. Having a director was. My current job gives me parameters. I must complete my work in a certain time frame, but I can pick the day of the week I choose to do it. From what I understand, the director chooses the day she has CC based on a variety of factors. But CC doesn't dictate the day of the week to the director. They just state that it must be one day a week for how ever many weeks. When you start varies too from my experience. My current job has regular training for me to attend. There isn't a generic training for my job like there is say for a plumber. It's specialized training, so my company offers it. I technically don't have to attend, but they technically don't have to renew me. I have lots of friends doing CC. (We have done CC.) And I know tutors and directors who didn't go to training. So maybe they don't get renewed because of it, but that is different than "requiring" it. Like someone else mentioned it is similar to Pampered Chef or Mary Kay or other companies. They have to have sales consultants or there is no company. I don't see a difference with this point. I think it's possible for certain people to execute the contract wrong. I have worked for people who treated my like an employee, but they weren't the company. The company didn't get in trouble for that the person did. The person was wrong not the company at least in my case. I have to wonder if that is the issues here. I still think you should take it to the top, so what if they "know" what is going on with this because you talked to your supervisor. You have a question for them. Ask them for an answer. Don't rely on someone someone contracted! Get it from them directly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davysmom Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 Thank you for sharing your thoughts, experiences, wisdom and moral encouragement on this issue! My experience is when a post like Stella's happens, the discussion goes downhill from there so if you would like to further discuss this, please send personal messages. I will take your comments into consideration when making my decision! Ouch that is harsh! Personally, I don't see anything wrong with Stella's post because she started it with IF. It came across to me as just food for thought like so many others posted. She also was very clear that she would feel a certain way. She didn't say you did. A post like mine? I'm sorry that in questioning the moral integrity of a company/individual, you didn't expect that your own would be relevant. It wasn't a personal attack, but a stated hesitation due to what I perceived as redirecting and inconsistency -- both of which do nothing for your credibility. There are several inconsistencies I find troubling in your posts. The least of which is that you will be putting your family back into CC to benefit from a business model you are so troubled by. Ill leave it at that... Peace, Stella Not only are there inconsistencies, but this is your only topic at the WTM. You posted this question on another thread after joining Tuesday. Then when it was suggested you make this it's own topic, you started this thread. Beyond that, you have no posts here. And the first post I quoted makes it sound like you are familiar with WTM happenings. Maybe you speak of another forum, but it makes me wonder why you suddenly registered here to post this question on a old CC thread that was recently resurrected. And then you come here and start a new thread that has the potential to be controversial. There are enough inconsistencies that it makes me wonder are you are regular board member who created new account for this question? Are you looking to cause an issue on the boards? Why no other posts at all outside of this issue? Normally, new members with burning questions also look around and participate in other threads, but for 3 days you are commenting a lot but only here. As an IC and someone who participated with CC, I was very intrigued by this topic. But that comment (first quote) caused some red flags for me. Stella's right something is inconsistent. For me, it's not adding up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts