I am not asking for your opinion about where my kids are educated; I am asking what you think about how CC classifies their workers. Filing an ss8 form does not mean my relationship with CC will end negatively . . . it is illegal and unethical to retaliate.

Stella, I am questioning whether CC workers are being classified appropriately. Based on the evidence, what is your perspective?

It is all very puzzling to me really. At times when I am thinking through it, I think perhaps there is a way to legitimize the IC classification and at other times, I think this could not be legitimate. So, I fluctuate. If I submit the form and the IRS says it is legitimate, I will be thankful. At least this discussion would equip those in CC with a healthy respect for everyone's rights as ICs. If the IRS says it is not legitimate, I won't be surprised and may have some penalties and back taxes coming my way:( I haven't compared it with Pampered Chef and others because CC seems to be exercising so much more control prima facie. But, perhaps they can justify that control to the IRS . . .. I just don't know.

For tutors it is three days, but for Directors. . . it is two practicums (one for Essentials and Foundations) and Director Business Training and then they have a Learning Pathways site that tracks what webinars you have watched . . .. Then, if you stop being a Director or tutor, they have a non-compete clause because you now know their proprietary information. . . Do you see why this is all very iffy as an IC classification?

This is a great summary of the rights of an independent contractor.

Continuing on from my last post . . . . If you are/have been a Director, were you ever informed of the gravity of classifying your tutors as ICs? CC may cover it - I don't remember so I sincerely wish to know from other Directors - are you being made aware of this from CC? Do you realize that if I don't file the ss8, someone else could or the IRS could do a random audit and my understanding is that CC could be forced to convert all ICs to employees. Or they could find CC above board but you as a Director having misclassified your tutors and you could be fined and have back taxes to pay. thegeyser cares about this because she is informed. I care about this because of my recent experience and I started researching the issue. You should care about this too! If you have a Director who has given you the freedoms due an IC in as much as she can within the CC set-up, call her right now and thank her! She is the most vulnerable within the CC system and the only upside for her is you and the others in her community who thank her for all she does and support her through the tough times. I am on her side in this!!! thegeyser is on her side! She needs you by her side as well so don't let her be uninformed and unsupported. Call her today and let her know that you are so thankful for everything she does:) and then tell her about this thread because she really needs to know about this.

Where does the electrician get their training? From the company or person who contracted them, or elsewhere? One characteristic of an IC is that they are trained in the task that they are performing for the company - no specialized training necessary. Another consideration of IC/employee is whether the job they are performing is integral to the business. CC communities could not exist without the Directors and tutors so they are integral. Don't miss the forest for the trees. Another consideration with respect to the practicums is this: CC needs Director/tutors. CC wants the Director/tutors to be trained well. CC mandates Director/tutor training. CC needs to make this training happen. CC pays their employees to make what they mandate happen. WRONG! CC approaches these same Directors/tutors to work the practicum as volunteers or for near volunteer wages to provide the training that CC mandates. It is very early in the morning but there is something not quite right about this scenario for a for-profit business. Again, iffy and I'd like the IRS to let me know if it is above board.

Wow thegeyser, you are truly a kindred spirit and I don't think much more needs to be said:) You summed it up beautifully. Thank you for publicly posting.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts, experiences, wisdom and moral encouragement on this issue! My experience is when a post like Stella's happens, the discussion goes downhill from there so if you would like to further discuss this, please send personal messages. I will take your comments into consideration when making my decision!

Thank you Stella. Had I not started from a belief in CC's guilt, I would not have started this thread. So guilty as charged. I'm looking for someone to convince me that I am mistaken.

I'd really like to keep the focus on my questions and not my emotional response so let me just tell you that I remained at the campus, helped as much as I could, and submitted my payment last week to continue doing CC in the Fall at the SAME campus. My campus, for the most part, stood behind me and understood why I did what I did and we are looking forward to next year. This is really a moral dilemma for me, not an emotional drama so please focus on my questions because it gets really tedious when intellectual questions and moral dilemmas are reduced to emotional dramas. (CS Lewis has a great read about that titled "Men without Chests").

This is true. In my case, the support manager took over in the middle of my year as Director. I hope that my situation is not repeated in this area - I am hopeful it won't be because I took a stand and resigned. I also hope this thread will help others who consider being Directors/tutors by letting them know their rights as independent contractors and that if someone feels that what CC is asking of them is a little much, your feelings could be legitimate. CC does not need to respect laws that protect employees from being exploited by their employers because they hire ICs.

I wouldn't say I am hacked off . . . I resigned in January/February. I am told it takes at least six months to get a ruling and I am getting others' opinions now so I can decide well before I actually have to file. It is interesting how much you assume when forming your opinion about my emotional response. Don't you find this an intellectually interesting dilemma? Shouldn't a business honor the tradeoff that if you want to control how someone does their job, you should be willing to pay for the privilege?

I am still interested in what those involved in CC would do in this circumstance. It seems to me to be a great moral dilemma to pose to a Challenge student, so what do you think?

Does anyone know if CC considers itself a franchise? A friend told me that the contract says that it is not a franchise but I am not sure if that is the case.

I have talked to them and I believe that the upper management is aware. The RM admitted that there was overreach in my case but said that it can worked out locally. But, as I researched this more, I think it is a problem with the business structure and that while my particular disagreement may have been a local issue, the structure i questionable. Under the current situation, CC retains control, uses workers without the protections and benefits of employees, and keeps the liability at the IC level. There is no trade-off for them. The other thing I have encountered is that I wanted the regional manager (RM) to put things in writing and she would not. She said it is their policy to not put financial (and perhaps other) issues in writing. My husband, who is a physician, finds this interesting. Imagine if he refused to put prescriptions in writing and only give them over the phone. . . perhaps that is a different thing.

Is it siccing (sp?) or properly representing how I was treated on my tax forms? This gets to the core of my hesitation so I would love to hear what people think. . .

I have tried to go further up the chain than the regional manager who is an IC, but she said that she is the third person from the top guy so she could make things clear. She tried to reassure me and I really want to believe her when she says they have lawyers and CPAs who have worked with them and had no problems. But, at this point, my threshold for trust is that the IRS gives the stamp of approval and since CC has never inquired, she was not able to reassure me.

My concern is that the reason they have such a firm and growing hold is because they are for-profit business that uses underpaid independent contractors and volunteers to further their reach. If the Directors and tutors were employees, my understanding is that CC would be restricted from even approaching their employees to run practicums as volunteers (I was asked to be a practicum hostess for $50 certificate to the book store - basically a volunteer). This is intended to protect employees from being exploited and because they classify their workers as ICs, they don't have to follow these rules. While I haven't talked to a lot of people about this, I have talked to enough people who feel that CC is asking too much of them to think that I am not alone in believing that CC is taking "this is a ministry" a little too far, especially considering it is a for-profit business (that has a non-compete clause).

I have talked to our regional manager and though conversations can sometimes bring full understanding, I realized that the only thing that would have satisfied my conscience was if she were to say, "We submitted an ss8 ourselves and they ruled our structure to be sound" and that was not what she told me.

If I file the ss8, I will probably file two. One for me as the contracted Director, and one as the contractee with me tutors. From my reading, both classifications are iffy so the honest thing to do is to bring them both under the scrutiny of the IRS. The way I see it is that it will benefit everyone who has contracted with CC in the long run. If the IRS upholds the classification, then CC can point to this audit for future questions. If the IRS does not uphold it, then it protects future families from contracting with a company that instructs those who contract with them to classify their workers in this way (not saying that it was intentional). In the end, the IRS ruling would bring clarity to what a lot of people wonder.

Correction: I was contracted by an IC, then a new support manager was contracted by this IC, and it was this new support manager who was treating me as if I was an employee.

From talking to the regional manager, I discovered that support managers, area managers and regional managers are all ICs. So, I was contracted by an IC, and it was the IC who was treating me like an employee. I asked if those at the highest levels were also ICs and she did not know.

I'm glad to know that I am not the only one puzzled by this. As a Director, I get paid directly by the parents and the only money that goes to CC is the registration money. Financially, on this point, it looks like I as the Director am an independent contractor. However, I was behaviorally being treated as though I was her employee. As I studied more about the subject and applied it to CC, I realized that while the Director is paid directly by the parents, the tutors that the Director contracts, are paid by the Director so it looks more like an employee/employer arrangement on this point. The way that I handled this on my campus, knowing that my tutors were independent contractors, is that if I added more kids to their classes, I would ask their permission, so they were in control of how many kids in their class even though I kept control over the process by which those who enrolled entered the program. While I don't want to expose anyone to an unnecessary audit, including myself, my additional concern is that CC does not seem to make their workers aware that this is a serious issue within their particular business model and that a random audit may eventually happen and those within CC could face penalties if the IRS deems the IC status a misclassification. There are so many well-intentioned families involved in CC and some don't even know to ask these questions so they aren't aware of this additional risk when contracting with CC.

Thank you for your responses . . . that is what my conscience says I should do. I received some friendly advice by a CPA that if I were to go this route, I would not be well liked. While I understand her warning, I would hope that those in Classical Conversations would want adults to behave as they are training their children to behave - to stand up for what is right even when others may not understand/agree. Any CCers wish to share their thoughts?