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classicalfam

Classical Conversations - Employee or Independent Contractor

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I am interested in picking the brains of CC Directors with regard to the CC business model. 


My understanding is that when you are an independent contractor, the benefit is that you are your own boss.  What freedoms does the CC Director have?


The way that it is set up now, it seems that the ICs do not have much freedom, get no benefits or protections from being an employee (i.e. employers are restricted from asking their employees to volunteer), and retain all of the liability of self-employed individuals.  What is the upside then for being an independent contractor?  There seems to be a lot of upsides for CC since they retain control, don't need to provide benefits or be accountable to labor laws, and the Director has full liability.  What is the upside for the Director?


Can someone who is a Director tell me what I am not getting?  


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I may be a little impatient with replies so perhaps I should just ask a more open-ended question and ask if anyone wonders if CC is not honoring the spirit of the independent contractor . . . read an article here.

 

Thoughts?

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It sounds to me like Directors should be employees, not independent contractors. Having said that, I don't think it matters. The distinction only matters if it matters to the employee/contractor. My brother is an independent contractor in a construction field. When I look at the way his situation is structured, it is clear that he should be an employee. But he likes it the way it is for a variety of reasons. I feel like his boss is getting the better end of the deal, but my brother simply doesn't care. If he doesn't dispute it, it doesn't matter.

 

There must be a benefit to directors. Or they don't want to rock the boat. I don't know. I find it annoying when employers bend the rules like this, but if the people involved (Directors) don't care...

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I think they probably do this to keep costs down.  If each tutor and director were employees, they would have to pay social security taxes and probably insurance.  These costs would all be passed down to the students.  So the upside would be that people can better afford to sign up for classes.

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It sounds to me like Directors should be employees, not independent contractors. Having said that, I don't think it matters. The distinction only matters if it matters to the employee/contractor. My brother is an independent contractor in a construction field. When I look at the way his situation is structured, it is clear that he should be an employee. But he likes it the way it is for a variety of reasons. I feel like his boss is getting the better end of the deal, but my brother simply doesn't care. If he doesn't dispute it, it doesn't matter.

 

There must be a benefit to directors. Or they don't want to rock the boat. I don't know. I find it annoying when employers bend the rules like this, but if the people involved (Directors) don't care...

 

I resigned as Director this year because my Support manager was treating me like I was her employee and my Area manager did not seem to understand that it was illegal to do so.  

 

So, now, I am faced with a moral dilemma that I would like to pose to my fellow CCers: when I file my taxes next year, should I file as an independent contractor or employee?  I could file an ss8 form to have the IRS determine my classification but this could cause an audit of CC.

 

What would you do?

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I am not a CCer. IMO, you should feel no obligation to protect them from an audit. If they are in the right, then there is no harm done. If they are exploiting Directors, that needs to stop. I would file the SS-8, and allow the IRS to sort it out.

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Depending on the state employing contractors can be a very dangerous game to play. If you can't clearly prove a number of requirements the fines usually add up quickly.

 

I would let the IRS sort it out. If they are following the rules they'll be fine. If they aren't, that isn't your responsibility.

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Thank you for your responses . . . that is what my conscience says I should do.  I received some friendly advice by a CPA that if I were to go this route, I would not be well liked.  While I understand her warning, I would hope that those in Classical Conversations would want adults to behave as they are training their children to behave - to stand up for what is right even when others may not understand/agree.

 

Any CCers wish to share their thoughts?

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Generally to be an I dependant contractor you have to be able to set your own hours and pay. I doubt these criteria are met in the case of CC.

 

You need to file taxes in such a way that you are not violating the law or exposing yourself to tax problems.

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I say follow your conscience.

 

But also look at whether it was another IC doing this or the company. Who "hired" or contracted you the company or the SM? Is the SM another IC? If you were contracted by another IC how will that impact you if you file your taxes that way? Is it different than if hired by CC. Or if you were contracted by or for CC the co, might the Ic/SM actions not count?

 

Does that make any sense? I don't know how it works with them....just wondering.

 

I work as an IC for a company. I was technically. hired by another IC, but my contact/client is the company, I am under contract with them. My immediate supervisor is an IC. If she screws up, it is handled differently than when the employee supervisor screws up. I would be worried that there is the potential for it to also negatively impact you esp if you were under contract as an IC. I contractually agreed to work as an IC for the co I work for. If I file taxes otherwise, would I be audited also or liable for a contract violation?

 

Personally I wouldn't worry about the hiring co, I figure they have accountants and lawyers to deal with this. I wouldn't want to be audited personally. And I know if I was an employee instead of an IC, I would lose all my great tax write offs. Those tax write offs are one of the many reasons I like being an IC.

 

While I have nothing to hide, I would hate to be audited. If I were you, I would be concerned my actions would trigger an audit for me. Maybe it won't, but those are my thoughts as an IC.

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Oh wait now that I think about it my questions/pondering might not apply. Wouldn't your client be the person who pays you? I get paid by the co, but in CC you paid by the parents. If the SM isn't paying you does that change things? Do you get paid by CC? By SM? I am finding this interesting. I never gave IC status this much thought but I am curious now about it.

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I'm glad to know that I am not the only one puzzled by this.

 

As a Director, I get paid directly by the parents and the only money that goes to CC is the registration money.  Financially, on this point, it looks like I as the Director am an independent contractor.  However, I was behaviorally being treated as though I was her employee.

 

As I studied more about the subject and applied it to CC, I realized that while the Director is paid directly by the parents, the tutors that the Director contracts, are paid by the Director so it looks more like an employee/employer arrangement on this point.  The way that I handled this on my campus, knowing that my tutors were independent contractors, is that if I added more kids to their classes, I would ask their permission, so they were in control of how many kids in their class even though I kept control over the process by which those who enrolled entered the program. 

 

While I don't want to expose anyone to an unnecessary audit, including myself, my additional concern is that CC does not seem to make their workers aware that this is a serious issue within their particular business model and that a random audit may eventually happen and those within CC could face penalties if the IRS deems the IC status a misclassification.

 

There are so many well-intentioned families involved in CC and some don't even know to ask these questions so they aren't aware of this additional risk when contracting with CC. 

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But also look at whether it was another IC doing this or the company. Who "hired" or contracted you the company or the SM? Is the SM another IC? If you were contracted by another IC how will that impact you if you file your taxes that way? Is it different than if hired by CC. Or if you were contracted by or for CC the co, might the Ic/SM actions not count?

 

 

From talking to the regional manager, I discovered that support managers, area managers and regional managers are all ICs.  So, I was contracted by an IC, and it was the IC who was treating me like an employee.

 

 

I asked if those at the highest levels were also ICs and she did not know.

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  So, I was contracted by an IC, and it was the IC who was treating me like an employee.

 

 

Correction: I was contracted by an IC, then a new support manager was contracted by this IC, and it was this new support manager who was treating me as if I was an employee.

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While I have nothing to hide, I would hate to be audited. If I were you, I would be concerned my actions would trigger an audit for me. Maybe it won't, but those are my thoughts as an IC.

 

If I file the ss8, I will probably file two.  One for me as the contracted Director, and one as the contractee with me tutors. From my reading, both classifications are iffy so the honest thing to do is to bring them both under the scrutiny of the IRS.

 

The way I see it is that it will benefit everyone who has contracted with CC in the long run.  If the IRS upholds the classification, then CC can point to this audit for future questions.

 

If the IRS does not uphold it, then it protects future families from contracting with a company that instructs those who contract with them to classify their workers  in this way (not saying that it was intentional).

 

In the end, the IRS ruling would bring clarity to what a lot of people wonder.

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I mentioned this issue to one of our local directors and was pretty much dismissed. Ironically, some posts I made on this forum landed me in a face-to-face meeting with an offended CC Director even though nothing I had said was specifically about our local community. I had just finished reading Carol Topp's book on home school co-op management. I told the Director I was concerned about her liability if the IRS were ever contacted or made aware of the situation due to the fact that the independent contractors don't appear to meet the qualifications to be independent contractors.  When faced with the information, she told me she trusted CC. She believed they would have already looked into this issue. Personally, when the IRS is involved, I don't think it is wise to assume anything.

 

Unfortunately, from what I was told by our local Regional Manager, the Regional Support Managers have been hired to assure that all CC protocols are being followed and that there is a level of quality control. I would think that is what is contributing to the relationship dynamics you are mentioning. The set-up seems unsustainable, especially with the trajectory they are on (more control and oversight from upper management levels).

 

If it isn't you, someone else who becomes disgruntled with how things are handled and becomes aware of the precariousness of CC's employee structure will likely initiate an investigation.

 

I've started telling people I know about this potential pitfall, mostly because I don't want to see any of them get caught up in it all. Most of these people are tutors though. There are seven communities (as of this week a new one is being launched a half mile from my house) within a 30 minute drive from my house. If there are at least 4-6 Directors in each of those communities, there are a lot of local home school families who would be affected by this decision. I wish I could just ignore these things, but CC has a very firm and growing hold on our local home school community.

 

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I mentioned this issue to one of our local directors and was pretty much dismissed. Ironically, some posts I made on this forum landed me in a face-to-face meeting with an offended CC Director even though nothing I had said was specifically about our local community. I had just finished reading Carol Topp's book on home school co-op management. I told the Director I was concerned about her liability if the IRS were ever contacted or made aware of the situation due to the fact that the independent contractors don't appear to meet the qualifications to be independent contractors.  When faced with the information, she told me she trusted CC. She believed they would have already looked into this issue. Personally, when the IRS is involved, I don't think it is wise to assume anything.

 

 

I have talked to our regional manager and though conversations can sometimes bring full understanding, I realized that the only thing that would have satisfied my conscience was if she were to say, "We submitted an ss8 ourselves and they ruled our structure to be sound" and that was not what she told me.

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IThere are seven communities (as of this week a new one is being launched a half mile from my house) within a 30 minute drive from my house. If there are at least 4-6 Directors in each of those communities, there are a lot of local home school families who would be affected by this decision. I wish I could just ignore these things, but CC has a very firm and growing hold on our local home school community.

 

My concern is that the reason they have such a firm and growing hold is because they are for-profit business that uses underpaid independent contractors and volunteers to further their reach.

 

If the Directors and tutors were employees, my understanding is that CC would be restricted from even approaching their employees to run practicums as volunteers (I was asked to be a practicum hostess for $50 certificate to the book store - basically a volunteer).  This is intended to protect employees from being exploited and because they classify their workers as ICs, they don't have to follow these rules.  While I haven't talked to a lot of people about this, I have talked to enough people who feel that CC is asking too much of them to think that I am not alone in believing that CC is taking "this is a ministry" a little too far, especially considering it is a for-profit business (that has a non-compete clause).

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Wow.

 

Have you thought about talking to whomever is actually in charge? It seems there must be someone above all the ICs. I am sure they wouldn't be too hard to find. Maybe tell them hey I am thinking about filling an ss8 and wanted to talk to you.... Maybe this would help you personally decide what to do.

 

I would love to know what they say.

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Wow.

 

Have you thought about talking to whomever is actually in charge? It seems there must be someone above all the ICs. I am sure they wouldn't be too hard to find. Maybe tell them hey I am thinking about filling an ss8 and wanted to talk to you.... Maybe this would help you personally decide what to do.

 

I would love to know what they say.

 

I have tried to go further up the chain than the regional manager who is an IC, but she said that she is the third person from the top guy so she could make things clear.  She tried to reassure me and I really want to believe her when she says they have lawyers and CPAs who have worked with them and had no problems.  But, at this point, my threshold for trust is that the IRS gives the stamp of approval and since CC has never inquired, she was not able to reassure me.  

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Sorry, I'm not remotely involved in CC but I would never "sic" the IRS on any organization at this point.  The employer vs. independent contractor issue is very much a gray area in the tax code.  There are many factors which go into the definitions and can vary based on individual situations.  You could talk to one CPA and get one opinion and a different one would have a totally different take on it.  The same with IRS agents.   

 

On the other hand, if you want to destroy Classical Conversations, go ahead.  I'm guessing that the costs associated with turning everyone into employees would be prohibitive (especially considering the new rules with health care) and that the program would get too expensive for most to participate.

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Sorry, I'm not remotely involved in CC but I would never "sic" the IRS on any organization at this point.  The employer vs. independent contractor issue is very much a gray area in the tax code. 

 

Is it siccing (sp?) or properly representing how I was treated on my tax forms? 

 

This gets to the core of my hesitation so I would love to hear what people think. . .

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I have participated in CC and am in no way against the program and company, but I am inclined to agree that neither directors nor tutors qualify as independent contractors and I think it is reasonable to let the IRS make the determination. I work part time as an independent contractor, I was offered an employee position which would have required I work where and when the employer wanted; I needed more flexibility, so I suggested I work as a contractor with more specialized duties and the ability to do the work how and when I choose.

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If they are properly designating people, then it should not be a concern for anyone involved. While it may be cost prohibitive to make everyone a part-time employee, perhaps making people true independent contractors would give much of the autonomy back to the local communities that they have lost as the control over them has tightened. I don't think this is an issue that will go away even if the original poster decides not to pursue the SS-8. Maybe give Carol Topp a call and see if she will offer any guidance based on her knowledge specifically with home school co-ops and IC designation?

 

The other option would be to make it a more volunteer run organization and issue co-op licenses like other curriculum companies like Tapestry of Grace, etc. CC would still profit based on the curriculum sales, etc. If the Challenge teachers are truly qualified (don't need specialized training) as Independent Contractors, they could probably still charge a fee, paid directly to the teachers, and operate like more traditional home school co-ops.

 

http://homeschoolcpa.com/

 

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Is it siccing (sp?) or properly representing how I was treated on my tax forms?

 

This gets to the core of my hesitation so I would love to hear what people think. . .

Be honest in your tax filings, you shouldn't feel you need to lie to protect someone else.

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My concern is that the reason they have such a firm and growing hold is because they are for-profit business that uses underpaid independent contractors and volunteers to further their reach.

 

While I haven't talked to a lot of people about this, I have talked to enough people who feel that CC is asking too much of them to think that I am not alone in believing that CC is taking "this is a ministry" a little too far, especially considering it is a for-profit business (that has a non-compete clause).

 

Yes.  From what I have seen, CC sells it to their directors as a "ministry to homeschool families" assuming that a ministry service will not pay very well if at all.  Then, in the upper levels, it is a multi-million dollar for profit company. 

 

Beth

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I have tried to go further up the chain than the regional manager who is an IC, but she said that she is the third person from the top guy so she could make things clear.  She tried to reassure me and I really want to believe her when she says they have lawyers and CPAs who have worked with them and had no problems.  But, at this point, my threshold for trust is that the IRS gives the stamp of approval and since CC has never inquired, she was not able to reassure me.  

 

You are no longer contracted by them right? I would go ahead and contact them. I don't know it sounds like someone has some control issues!

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Sorry, I'm not remotely involved in CC but I would never "sic" the IRS on any organization at this point.  The employer vs. independent contractor issue is very much a gray area in the tax code.  There are many factors which go into the definitions and can vary based on individual situations.  You could talk to one CPA and get one opinion and a different one would have a totally different take on it.  The same with IRS agents.   

 

On the other hand, if you want to destroy Classical Conversations, go ahead.  I'm guessing that the costs associated with turning everyone into employees would be prohibitive (especially considering the new rules with health care) and that the program would get too expensive for most to participate.

 

Oh good point - yikes.

If I ran a company and someone was doing something that could jeopardize my company, I would want to know! Contact them and ask them. If they don't have an answer, you will have your answer!

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I was a tutor for seven years with CC, and never did get a firm answer on this issue.  For three of those years I was under a director that never gave us 1099's (which is technically illegal if the $ is above a certain level and can bring fines).

 

When I was discussing this with my CPA, she said that of course I needed to claim income whether it was on a 1099-MISC or not. I know that some of the tutors I worked with under the director who did not issue any 1099's did not claim it. My CPA said that I was free and clear on my end as long as I claimed the income. The directors and higher ups would be the one to take a fall if the IRS got involved.

 

She also noted that in my shoes (busy person with many irons in the fire, no vendetta, not planning to stay with CC long term), she'd just let it drop as a lesson learned.  In her experience, filing the IRS form for a ruling can cause backlash, and she tells clients not to do that unless they've been unable to get their employer to do it themselves and unless they're prepared to not work for that employer any longer.  According to her, if you aren't currently working for the company and file the IRS form, it also gets much lower priority than those of people currently in an IC situation who want that reviewed.  To some extent, when you agree to IC work, you're accepting the downsides of that situation.

 

We've indeed moved on, and that's that.  When I do IC work (I actually just signed one this morning), I'm indeed very picky.

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Oh good point - yikes.

If I ran a company and someone was doing something that could jeopardize my company, I would want to know! Contact them and ask them. If they don't have an answer, you will have your answer!

 

I have talked to them and I believe that the upper management is aware.  The RM admitted that there was overreach in my case but said that it can worked out locally.  But, as I researched this more, I think it is a problem with the business structure and that while my particular disagreement may have been a local issue, the structure i questionable.  Under the current situation, CC retains control, uses workers without the protections and benefits of employees, and keeps the liability at the IC level.  There is no trade-off for them.

 

The other thing I have encountered is that I wanted the regional manager (RM) to put things in writing and she would not. She said it is their policy to not put financial (and perhaps other) issues in writing.  My husband, who is a physician, finds this interesting.  Imagine if he refused to put prescriptions in writing and only give them over the phone. . . perhaps that is a different thing.

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I have talked to them and I believe that the upper management is aware.  The RM admitted that there was overreach in my case but said that it can worked out locally.  But, as I researched this more, I think it is a problem with the business structure and that while my particular disagreement may have been a local issue, the structure i questionable.  Under the current situation, CC retains control, uses workers without the protections and benefits of employees, and keeps the liability at the IC level.  There is no trade-off for them.

 

If they converted to a system with employees, it would also be more expensive and open them to more liability and accounting issues.  If employees work a certain number of hours, they have to have benefits available to them. 

 

The reality is that employers get most of the benefit from having IC's.  They can set the terms and price, and if there are problems, it is much easier to get rid of or not renew an IC than it is to get rid of an employee. 

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I actually think a franchise model would be most appropriate for something like CC...

 

Does anyone know if CC considers itself a franchise?  A friend told me that the contract says that it is not a franchise but I am not sure if that is the case.

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I am still interested in what those involved in CC would do in this circumstance.  It seems to me to be a great moral dilemma to pose to a Challenge student, so what do you think?

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I just had this discussion with my dad this weekend. He runs a business with some employees and some independent contractors so he has to know the difference.

 

Technically an independent contractor can not be told how to do the job in any way. The company can assign them a task but not tell them how to do that task, when to show up, nothing.

 

Now, my dad points out that this is completely impractical since of course you are going to tell someone how you want something done when you hire them as an independent contractor but the ad limits and companies have to be careful or they will end up sued by the IRS for e taxes.

 

Anyone who has ever gone to a cc training knows that they tell you EXACTLY how to do everything, down to how much time to spend on things and what to write on the board.

 

If the IRS were to investigate my guess is they would be in a good deal of trouble.

 

There are no benefits for the directors and tutors as far as I can tell, howeve, as a tutor, I knew what I was getting into. I agreed to it and I don't mind much, but I also take their dictates with a grain of salt. I was told at a training that I am contractually obligated to have all kinds of expensive, and unnessesary supplies. I just smile and get only what I think I need. I was told not to ever explain memory work. Pish, posh, I teach kids in the logic stage - they want to know and can understand brief explanations so I am going to discuss things with them.

 

If my director and the families in our community a happy, I am not going to cha ge my ways for some guy in corporate on the East coast. I've never played well with other though.

 

I do think it would be wounderful if they actually did operate like real IC's or a franchise. IMO this tightening of power from corporate is going to be their downfall.

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Does anyone know if CC considers itself a franchise? A friend told me that the contract says that it is not a franchise but I am not sure if that is the case.

It is not set up as a franchise, I imagine the company wants more control than they would have under the franchise format. I just think a program such as CC could work well as a franchise.

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Below is a section I copied off irs.gov.  It is only one part of the page which explains how to determine employee versus independent contractor.  I think the poster is correct who stated that the distinction is murky, both from reading the IRS website and from my personal experience as an independent contractor in the medical field.  

 

As for my CC tutor training, there were no specific requirements for tutors in how to perform the job.  There was a lot of advice given about how various people have done the tutoring successfully, in order to give us ideas.  There was no time requirement for preparation.  There were no rules about how we must present the information, only a goal for the end result to be drilling the memory work.  CC groups may handle tutor training differently, but I didn't see anything in my personal experience as a CC tutor which would necessarily disqualify them from paying their tutors as IC's.  

 

 

Copied from irs.gov:

...Common Law Rules

Facts that provide evidence of the degree of control and independence fall into three categories:

  1. Behavioral: Does the company control or have the right to control what the worker does and how the worker does his or her job?
  2. Financial: Are the business aspects of the worker’s job controlled by the payer? (these include things like how worker is paid, whether expenses are reimbursed, who provides tools/supplies, etc.)
  3. Type of Relationship: Are there written contracts or employee type benefits (i.e. pension plan, insurance, vacation pay, etc.)? Will the relationship continue and is the work performed a key aspect of the business?

Businesses must weigh all these factors when determining whether a worker is an employee or independent contractor. Some factors may indicate that the worker is an employee, while other factors indicate that the worker is an independent contractor. There is no “magic†or set number of factors that “makes†the worker an employee or an independent contractor, and no one factor stands alone in making this determination. Also, factors which are relevant in one situation may not be relevant in another.

The keys are to look at the entire relationship, consider the degree or extent of the right to direct and control, and finally, to document each of the factors used in coming up with the determination.

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I just had this discussion with my dad this weekend. He runs a business with some employees and some independent contractors so he has to know the difference.

 

Technically an independent contractor can not be told how to do the job in any way. The company can assign them a task but not tell them how to do that task, when to show up, nothing.

 

 

 

We own a software development company and have both independent contractors and employees. I was just talking to my husband about the situation. I am also set to be a Foundations tutor at a teeny, tiny campus for the upcoming year.

 

The threshold for an IC is somewhat sticky. For instance, we can contract an IC to develop a website for our client. We can't tell the IC what kind of computer he has to have but obviously we can tell him the customer's parameters and tell him what the end product has to look like and by when it needs to be finished. We can't tell him how he needs to schedule his work time but we can give him a date and time that he needs to meet with the client to deliver the product.

 

I see CC somewhat the same way. They want an end product and they want it delivered at a specific time (the day the community meets). But, they don't tell you how much time you need to spend outside of that community day or how to schedule and divide up that time. 

 

When I went to tutor training, they gave suggestions as to what materials you may want to have but there was little that was required: the Foundations Guide, Timeline Cards, White Board. In our business, we have to require that our IC's have a computer and that they use the database that we use to service our customers. Seems similar to me.

 

Honestly, it wasn't really something I though of until I started reading about it here. So, these are just some of my initial thoughts. :)

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I see CC somewhat the same way. They want an end product and they want it delivered at a specific time (the day the community meets). But, they don't tell you how much time you need to spend outside of that community day or how to schedule and divide up that time. 

 

When I went to tutor training, they gave suggestions as to what materials you may want to have but there was little that was required: the Foundations Guide, Timeline Cards, White Board. In our business, we have to require that our IC's have a computer and that they use the database that we use to service our customers. Seems similar to me.

 

FWIW, most adjunct college professors are under the same expectations and are generally considered as-needed, part-time employees.  They're covered under the college professional liability policy and may be eligible for benefits.

 

But a business has to do what works for them. I don't see how CC could do it any other way frankly. No one is forced to be an independent contractor, after all.

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If you are at all hacked off by the circumstances that precipitated your resignation, I'd hit the pause button.  

 

Just thinking that's the only reason I'd be obsessing about taxes in July... 

 

You have time to settle emotionally and still address this.  I would take it.  

 

Stella

 

 

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If you are at all hacked off by the circumstances that precipitated your resignation, I'd hit the pause button.  

 

Just thinking that's the only reason I'd be obsessing about taxes in July... 

 

You have time to settle emotionally and still address this.  I would take it.  

 

Stella

 

I wouldn't say I am hacked off . . . I resigned in January/February.  I am told it takes at least six months to get a ruling and I am getting others' opinions now so I can decide well before I actually have to file.

 

It is interesting how much you assume when forming your opinion about my emotional response.  

 

Don't you find this an intellectually interesting dilemma?  Shouldn't a business honor the tradeoff that if you want to control how someone does their job, you should be willing to pay for the privilege?

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No one is forced to be an independent contractor, after all.

 

This is true.  In my case, the support manager took over in the middle of my year as Director.  I hope that my situation is not repeated in this area - I am hopeful it won't be because I took a stand and resigned.  

 

I also hope this thread will help others who consider being Directors/tutors by letting them know their rights as independent contractors and that if someone feels that what CC is asking of them is a little much, your feelings could be legitimate.  CC does not need to respect laws that protect employees from being exploited by their employers because they hire ICs.

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If you are at all hacked off by the circumstances that precipitated your resignation, I'd hit the pause button.  

 

Just thinking that's the only reason I'd be obsessing about taxes in July... 

 

You have time to settle emotionally and still address this.  I would take it.  

 

Stella

 

I'd really like to keep the focus on my questions and not my emotional response so let me just tell you that I remained at the campus, helped as much as I could, and submitted my payment last week to continue doing CC in the Fall at the SAME campus.  My campus, for the most part, stood behind me and understood why I did what I did and we are looking forward to next year.

 

This is really a moral dilemma for me, not an emotional drama so please focus on my questions because it gets really tedious when intellectual questions and moral dilemmas are reduced to emotional dramas.  (CS Lewis has a great read about that titled "Men without Chests").

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I wouldn't say I am hacked off . . . I resigned in January/February.  I am told it takes at least six months to get a ruling and I am getting others' opinions now so I can decide well before I actually have to file.

 

It is interesting how much you assume when forming your opinion about my emotional response.  

 

Don't you find this an intellectually interesting dilemma?  Shouldn't a business honor the tradeoff that if you want to control how someone does their job, you should be willing to pay for the privilege?

 

 

I'm not assuming anything.  I made a statement contingent upon "if."

 

I trust you if you say your hackles aren't up.  

 

I think "intellectually interesting" isn't enough for me to engage on a topic that can do real damage.  You asked for practical advice, a piece of which I shared.  (I get my hackles up on occasion and can stack soap boxes like nobody's business).  What I find interesting is that this has gone from "how should I file?" to "Shouldn't a business honor the tradeoff... should be willing to pay for the privilege?"  One asks an honest question that's worthy of a clear answer -- I can't help you there.  The other works from an assumed point of guilt to justify filing a certain way.  At least the way I'm seeing it...

 

Stella

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Thank you Stella.  Had I not started from a belief in CC's guilt, I would not have started this thread.  So guilty as charged.

 

I'm looking for someone to convince me that I am mistaken.

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Thank you for sharing your thoughts, experiences, wisdom and moral encouragement on this issue!  My experience is when a post like Stella's happens, the discussion goes downhill from there so if you would like to further discuss this, please send personal messages.  I will take your comments into consideration when making my decision!

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I am not under the impression that employers get to pick the arrangement that best works for them. Employers have to designate status based on whether or not it fits the criteria outlined by the IRS. What amazes me is that people seem more concerned with what this could do to the business rather than whether or not the IC designation is actually legal and what that means to Directors if the IRS investigates for whatever reason and finds them owing penalty fees and back payments. I wonder if the Directors receive any kind of training in what it means to hire independent contractors versus employees and the level of control and/or behavior allowed in the one relationship versus the other. The entire work of the business revolves around the work of these independent contractors, and they have required training and meetings to attend. Don't the communities try to have all the  tutors teaching the same hand motions, jingles, etc? Otherwise, all the families would have trouble keeping up with the different songs/hand jives, etc. taught in each of the classes. If the IRS designated the IC status invalid, this would not be someone destroying a business. Rather it would be the case that the business classified its employees wrongly despite people letting them know they were likely in a vulnerable position. 

 

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So, is there error in my comparative analysis above?

 

CC wants an end product that has consistency. I was not given any specific instructions at tutor training as to how to achieve that end product at community day other than to write the specific memory work for the week on the white board and to allot a certain amount of time to each subject. 

 

We were also told to keep it as simple as possible so that parents would see nothing fancy is needed to duplicate the lesson at home.

 

I was not told how much time to spend during the week prepping. I was not told what materials to use to prep. I was not told which white board, specifically, to buy. I was not told that I had to "work" from noon to 2pm every day. I was not told which websites to read to get more ideas. I was not told which methods to use while teaching on community day.

 

So, is the only thing that people think makes it an employee situation rather than an independent contractor situation is that you have to show up at the appointed time on community day and present the designated material? Oh, I guess you do have to go to the three day practicum for training during the summer.

 

What am I missing? 

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