New Gallup Poll About Prestigious vs Other Colleges

[Jenny in Florida]

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2014/05/06/308382912/poll-prestigious-colleges-wont-make-you-happier-in-life-or-work?utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=npr&utm_term=nprnews&utm_content=20140506

 

"here's plenty of anxiety in the U.S. over getting into a top college. But a new Gallup poll suggests that, later in life, it doesn't matter nearly as much as we think. In fact, when you ask college graduates whether they're "engaged" with their work or "thriving" in all aspects of their lives, their responses don't vary one bit whether they went to a prestigious college or not."

[fourisenough]

Fascinating!  Thanks for sharing.

[Teachin'Mine]

Interesting.  But I think it's worth noting that physical health and personal relationships are two of the categories they asked about.  When they compared those who were thriving in all five areas, there was no difference, but I wonder if these two areas were eliminated if the results would have been the same.  They also surveyed people of all ages.  I'm just guessing that for those at the older end of the spectrum, where they attended college mattered even less as a far lower percentage of the population attended a 4 year college of any kind.  

 

Also worthy of note is that higher loans, not surprisingly, played a key role in people's ability to thrive.  So fairly recent graduates of more expensive schools with higher debt would appear less happy than those who attended an in-state, or a private college, and graduated with little debt.  

 

Also, again not surprisingly, what seemed to matter the most is how engaged the teachers were and how involved the individual was as a student, no matter which college they attended.

 

And not surprisingly, for-profit college graduates fared the worst.

 

In this economy, it's a great thing when someone can graduate debt-free, or low debt, no matter which college they attend.  And even better if they get involved and take advantage of all the college and it's community have to offer.

[Teachin'Mine]

This is an excerpt from the Gallup study itself:

 

"The study found that the type of schools these college graduates attended -- public or private, small or large, very selective or less selective -- hardly matters at all to their workplace engagement and current well-being. Just as many graduates of public colleges as graduates of not-for-profit private colleges are engaged at work -- meaning they are deeply involved in, enthusiastic about, and committed to their work. And just as many graduates of public as not-for-profit private institutions are thriving -- which Gallup defines as strong, consistent, and progressing -- in all areas of their well-being.

 

Instead, the study found that support and experiences in college had more of a relationship to long-term outcomes for these college graduates. For example, if graduates recalled having a professor who cared about them as a person, made them excited about learning, and encouraged them to pursue their dreams, their odds of being engaged at work more than doubled, as did their odds of thriving in all aspects of their well-being. And if graduates had an internship or job in college where they were able to apply what they were learning in the classroom, were actively involved in extracurricular activities and organizations, and worked on projects that took a semester or more to complete, their odds of being engaged at work doubled as well."

 

Not surprising at all.    :)

[Crimson Wife]

"The graduate survey released Tuesday suggests the factors that should be guiding college decisions are not selectivity or prestige, but cost of attendance, great teaching and deep learning, in that order."

 

Call me a cynic, but the value of a college degree lies not in the quality of learning, but on the piece of paper that will open up doors and the social connections that will help the graduate throughout life.

 

You want to learn something? Borrow a book from the libary. Watch a TC documentary. Go visit a museum or historic site. All of which are FAR cheaper than the cheapest college degree.

 

The reason people are paying out the nose for college is because in this economy, whom you know is at least as important (if not more so) as what you know. Most job openings are never advertised so the only way you'd ever have a shot at getting them is by knowing the right person. And that's where the real value of college lies, especially for middle-class kids who don't have family connections to rely on like the children of the wealthy do.

[Jenny in Florida]

"The graduate survey released Tuesday suggests the factors that should be guiding college decisions are not selectivity or prestige, but cost of attendance, great teaching and deep learning, in that order."

 

Call me a cynic, but the value of a college degree lies not in the quality of learning, but on the piece of paper that will open up doors and the social connections that will help the graduate throughout life.

 

Except that a number of studies have also found that there is no link between the selectivity of the school one attends and later income. As noted in the linked article:

 

"Previous studies have shown no link between expensive private colleges and later salary for graduates. Income is much more closely tied to a person's choice of a major, which is a finding the Gallup survey also supported."

[8filltheheart]

Call me a cynic, but the value of a college degree lies not in the quality of learning, but on the piece of paper that will open up doors and the social connections that will help the graduate throughout life.

 

You want to learn something? Borrow a book from the libary. Watch a TC documentary. Go visit a museum or historic site. All of which are FAR cheaper than the cheapest college degree.

 

.......Most job openings are never advertised so the only way you'd ever have a shot at getting them is by knowing the right person. And that's where the real value of college lies, especially for middle-class kids who don't have family connections to rely on like the children of the wealthy do.

 

Definitely cynical.  There are a world of majors out there that can't be accomplished with books and documentaries.   Some....yes.   But, I want the bridges I drive over, the planes I fly in, the tires and brakes on my car, etc to all be designed by people who were expected to have demonstrated output by someone qualified to evaluate that output as correct. 

 

[Jenny in Florida]

I suppose value means different things to different people.

 

Agreed. I certainly hope my kids find the primary value of their college experiences to be in the education they receive. 

[Crimson Wife]

Connections can certainly help, but they only go so far, and some prefer to prove their worth.

And I'm telling you that merit only takes you so far, and without the right connections, it doesn't matter how competant you are. You may have a fantastic resume, but if you don't know the correct person, you'll never have a shot at landing the job.

[Nan in Mass]

Does the study cover only those students who graduate?  Or does it also cover the students who started college and didn't graduate?

It is important to pick a school that you can and will FINISH.  I think a study didn't include the students who tried one type of college or another and didn't finish would not be very useful?

 

Nan

[chiguirre]

And I'm telling you that merit only takes you so far, and without the right connections, it doesn't matter how competant you are. You may have a fantastic resume, but if you don't know the correct person, you'll never have a shot at landing the job.

That's what headhunters are for. Dh has gotten lots of phone calls over the years because professional colleagues have given his name to a headhunter and, in turn, has recommended lots of colleagues to headhunters when he wasn't interested in a job opportunity. After the first couple of years out of Wharton, all those references came from work, not from school. Once you find your niche, the same names keep popping up over and over. This might be because dh's niche is a fairly narrow field with a very distinct culture, but I think it's common in a lot of specialized fields.

[Teachin'Mine]

And I'm telling you that merit only takes you so far, and without the right connections, it doesn't matter how competant you are. You may have a fantastic resume, but if you don't know the correct person, you'll never have a shot at landing the job.

 

I have no doubt that that is true for some jobs.  But if you take that as an assumption, a person graduates from only one university or college and makes connections there.   So even if you assume a graduate of Harvard, perhaps the job that would be best suited and most fantastic for that graduate has opened up at a company which favors Princeton graduates, or Yale, or ...   

 

A student from a middle or lower class family may or may not make the connections at college.  In some colleges these connections are fostered through the Greek houses or other ways which might not be accessible to these students financially.  

 

IMO a good education, internships and connections with professors trump a mediocre education, heavy partying just doing the bare minimum type of college education any day and both of these types of students attend prestigious and "other" colleges. 

 

While I do think that some prestigious colleges do have advantages and see ambiguity in this study, all colleges and universities offer opportunities and it's up to the student to take advantage of what is available.  

[creekland]

And I'm telling you that merit only takes you so far, and without the right connections, it doesn't matter how competant you are. You may have a fantastic resume, but if you don't know the correct person, you'll never have a shot at landing the job.

 

IME, this is true (and related to where one went to undergrad) only for a small minority of jobs.

 

Connections are indeed made in colleges, but it happens in many colleges.  What one needs from their college is the "stuff" (education and connections) to get that first job or to get into grad school.  After that, for the VAST majority of jobs, connections made on the job count for far more.

 

And for some jobs, one doesn't even need direct connections.  One just needs recommendations and a good work resume.  Hubby's had job offers from around the US and a couple of countries.  For all but one of those, he hasn't known a soul from the recruiting company.  He has, however, done many jobs worldwide and is highly recommended by everyone he has done a job for or with.  He owns his own company, but our advertising budget is $0.  All of his jobs come via word of mouth.  The fact that he got his degree eons ago from Virginia Tech means nothing to any of his clients.  The education he got from there was well worth the $$ (including loans).

 

[Jenny in Florida]

And I'm telling you that merit only takes you so far, and without the right connections, it doesn't matter how competant you are. You may have a fantastic resume, but if you don't know the correct person, you'll never have a shot at landing the job.

 

I suspect that depends enormously on the kind of job. It was certainly not my experience back in my tech writing and editing days, for example.

 

My guess is that you are talking about a certain kind of career that doesn't apply to many people.

[Teachin'Mine]

I suspect that depends enormously on the kind of job. It was certainly not my experience back in my tech writing and editing days, for example.

 

My guess is that you are talking about a certain kind of career that doesn't apply to many people.

 

Investment banking is one that's typically mentioned.   And then there's Chris Gardner and his brokerage firm which was earned the hard way.   

[Jenny in Florida]

Investment banking is one that's typically mentioned.   

 

Well, i that's the kind of career we're talking about, that would explain why the idea of "connections" being so important is completely foreign to me. Neither of my kids has ever shown the least interest in a career in finance. Glad I have one fewer thing to worry about!

[creekland]

Well, i that's the kind of career we're talking about, that would explain why the idea of "connections" being so important is completely foreign to me. Neither of my kids has ever shown the least interest in a career in finance. Glad I have one fewer thing to worry about!

 

Even if one wants a career in finance, many schools work well for the vast majority of jobs.  It's really only a select few companies that are super specific in schools they'll hire from.  Finance careers are around in any city or larger town.  They aren't all in a small handful of very large cities.

 

As is the usual advice, have an idea of the job one is looking for (if known) and see where they hire from.  If one wants select Wall St (or similar), then one had best head to the "correct" schools if one can get in.  Engineering tends to be regional, so if one knows the region they'd like, then see what schools are popular in that area.

 

But for the vast, vast majority of jobs, as long as college can get you that first job somewhere, then it all depends upon how you do afterward.

[Teachin'Mine]

I have no idea which career(s) Crimson Wife has in mind, I'm just thinking of threads similar to this one on CC which mention investment banking as one of the fields in which the college name really does matter, and connections as well.

[Jenny in Florida]

 

But for the vast, vast majority of jobs, as long as college can get you that first job somewhere, then it all depends upon how you do afterward.

 

Please understand that my comments were firmly tongue in cheek. The idea of either of my kids being the least bit interested in a career in finance or investment is actually funny, since they are both artsy types. 

 

As my daughter pointed out when I told her about this thread, it is true that connections are important in the theatre world, but it's the connections you make by actually working and performing with people that matter. Where you go to college -- or if you went to college at all - matters much less than what you are able to do in auditions and on stage.

 

Their degrees may come in handy in helping them get jobs to support themselves that will pay the rent and put food on the table while they are looking for the jobs they actually want to do, but mostly we've encouraged college because we value the education part of it.

[8filltheheart]

And I'm telling you that merit only takes you so far, and without the right connections, it doesn't matter how competant you are. You may have a fantastic resume, but if you don't know the correct person, you'll never have a shot at landing the job.

Again, that is very field dependent, most definitely not a blanket truth.

[Catherine]

"The graduate survey released Tuesday suggests the factors that should be guiding college decisions are not selectivity or prestige, but cost of attendance, great teaching and deep learning, in that order."

 

Call me a cynic, but the value of a college degree lies not in the quality of learning, but on the piece of paper that will open up doors and the social connections that will help the graduate throughout life.

 

You want to learn something? Borrow a book from the libary. Watch a TC documentary. Go visit a museum or historic site. All of which are FAR cheaper than the cheapest college degree.

 

The reason people are paying out the nose for college is because in this economy, whom you know is at least as important (if not more so) as what you know. Most job openings are never advertised so the only way you'd ever have a shot at getting them is by knowing the right person. And that's where the real value of college lies, especially for middle-class kids who don't have family connections to rely on like the children of the wealthy do.

This may be true in some circles, or some professions, but it is most definitely not the case in medicine. Connections may matter, but if they even do, they are the connections one has made after becoming a trained doctor. Believe me, no one could care less which college or medical school any of us went to. The 2 very best people in my group both attended college and medical school in their native Asia, at places none of us has ever heard of.

[Catherine]

I have no idea which career(s) Crimson Wife has in mind, I'm just thinking of threads similar to this one on CC which mention investment banking as one of the fields in which the college name really does matter, and connections as well.

I have been shocked in the past by numbers I see indicating the huge percentage of college grads, and particularly Ivy grads, that go into investment banking. It was the plum of plum jobs in my LAC, where mediocre students by the dozens went to all those headhunter interviews. Fraternity connections matter big time in this area, from what I hear. But honestly, that group is a fairly small percentage of college grads.

[creekland]

but mostly we've encouraged college because we value the education part of it.

 

Same here.  I've told all three of my guys I don't particularly care if they end up using their degrees or not, but I feel it's worthwhile to get one in a field they enjoy.  In today's age, that piece of paper can come in handy work-wise even if their future job isn't in the same field, but again, that's a secondary reason for us.

 

I thoroughly enjoyed college and sometimes often get wistful when we drop our boys off.  ;)

 

So far, my older two have enjoyed their experiences as well.  Hopefully youngest will too.  He's looking forward to it.

 

[JennW in SoCal]

This column by Gracy Olmstead discusses the gallup poll.  The last 3 paragraphs from the linked column sum up my thoughts on what college is about:

 

Students who are seeking a career as an end in itself will experience disappointment once they enter the workforce. Some will not receive the position or paycheck they desired. Others will get a great job, but will find that money, unfortunately, can’t cure all ills.

The pursuit of meaning and knowledge—the desire for â€experiential and deep learning,†as the Gallup survey put it: these motivations used to be primary passions for college students. Students who pursued college were interested in exploring the world—its history, culture, and people—more fully. It was an adventure, not merely a pathway to prosperity.

As we consider ways to reform higher education in our country, it’s important that we look past job markets and financial gains, and consider the qualitative benefits that higher education can still offer to students. As we’ve seen—via the information provided above, and through other studies—colleges and universities don’t always live up to their promises. But the student who desires to learn, for its own sake, will always receive benefits from college—and, if the Gallup survey is correct, from the working world, as well.

 

[8filltheheart]

 

 

To be completely nit-picky, there are students that go to college and desire deep learning and have a passion for acquiring more understanding that have interests that explore the world beyond history, culture, and people. It isn't as if all students that are passionate about STEM subjects are only seeking training for employment. it isn't an either or scenario.

[JennW in SoCal]

Of for heaven's sake.  The quoted article was in no way, nor was I in quoting the article, making the assumption that STEM students are only training for employment.  Nor was there any negative judgement implied about those who are in college to gain employment.  

 

I posted the link to the article because instead of being cynical and seeing college as only being about the connections you make, or thinking that the name of the school is the only thing that will open doors later in life, I am optimistic about the learning that takes place, the opening of the mind, the richness of experience. A student who is engaged in learning will be a success no matter the major, the school or the reason for attending, and likely will be a happier person.  

 

 

[shawthorne44]

I have no idea which career(s) Crimson Wife has in mind, I'm just thinking of threads similar to this one on CC which mention investment banking as one of the fields in which the college name really does matter, and connections as well.

 

It seems to matter in high government appointments.  I remember the snobbish sniffing from the press about one of Bush's appointments whose degree was merely from SMU.  They've probably done the same for other people and I never noticed, but I did in this case because SMU is a school you attend for connections within Texas.  

 

For me, my university has never been discussed.  I have a degree from a real university that is large and local, so I guess no questions are needed.  For employment it is really just a checkmark.  I've never gotten a job through someone from the university, nor have I helped someone else get a job.    

[8filltheheart]

My comment wasn't directed toward you. It is why I specifically included the terms from quoted article. I also stated I was being nit picky. The authors list is skewed completely humanities/liberal arts.

[Nan in Mass]

: )  We were pleased with youngest's choice of a techie school BECAUSE we knew that there he would find plenty of techie students who were obsessed with their techie interests.  I suspect people who think most students going into STEM fields for the money alone just haven't had that much experience with the sort of student I have in mind.  As Jane keeps reminding me, the other sort of STEM student does exist - the ones who happened to get good grades in their math or science classes and so were steered into STEM careers by their parents or teachers.  They may or may not have the stamina to make it through the required majors for their degree.  STEM classes can seem very dry and an awful lot of hard work to students who aren't really interested in the subject matter, and they may find their one-track-mind-ed classmates poor company.  I haven't met many students like that, though.  The STEM students I know are the sort that show up for freshman move-in day with a home-made computer, a backpack that they've customized with little solar panels and special pockets for speakers and antenni, and parents who are fussing at them about making friends and eating fruits and vegetables and not doing anything illegal like hacking into the college computers or the dorm electrical system GRIN.

 

Nan