Public service announcement about community college to 4-year plans

[G5052]

Just so those of us going this way know how complicated it can get.  I kinda knew, but it was worse than I thought.

 

I work for two different community colleges now, both within the same state system.  I erroneously assumed that everything was the same in terms of transferring any of the credits from either one because we have state-wide content summaries and common course numbering.  One is in town, and the other is 30 minutes away, so easy enough to get to either way.  This morning in looking at how the credits will shake out if the AP/SAT II/CLEP scores come in high, I found out that the one closest to us is not as closely alligned to the nearest 4-year school as I thought.  DC is undecided, but is leaning towards a particular major, so I tracked that one.

 

First I found out that the credits they grant for those exams are slightly different. 

 

The closer school takes the Western History I CLEP and turns it into World History I and the other turns it into Western History I.  The 4-year school wants Western I or II or World II (why not World I?) from community college graduates in programs that require only one history credit.  The closer school only offers World History I and II. The 4-year accepts CLEP history exams, but reevaluates them against their requirements (slightly higher score than the CC).  They turn a high Western History I CLEP into Western I.  So we should be OK either way. 

 

For the psychology CLEP, each school turns it into a different class, but thankfully the 4-year will take either class or the CLEP.

 

Thankfully the AP credits are the same, although they allow a 3 and the 4-year wants a 4 or higher with fewer subjects accepted.  The community colleges don't grant credits for SAT II's, but the 4-year takes them for languages.  Thankfully I already knew about the AP and SAT II scores, but the CLEP issue was new to me. 

 

Then I found out that the degree track we're considering at the closer school does NOT feed in cleanly to the 4-year school.  If DC starts at the closer school, the transfer agreement does not cover the major we're thinking of because the closer school doesn't teach some of the courses.  They are given general admission, but can't go right into into their major without taking certain courses.

 

So it looks like if we go the community college route for that major, we have to either start at the close one and then finish at the further one (which also has slightly higher tution, plus more commuting expense and time on the road) or start at the futher one and graduate from there. I called the 4-year just now to confirm, and my assumptions are correct.

 

No wonder they always say that you need to be thinking about where you want to transfer to as soon as you register for your first semester at the community college!  Now I probably know as much as some of the guidance people do.  We met with one a few weeks ago to register for dual enrollment that had only been on the job a few weeks, and I had to correct him on several things.

[chiguirre]

Seriously! I thought I was being a bit tiger mom when I started looking into DE and AP classes and how the state colleges in Texas treat them. Umm, no, if anything I did it just in time. It takes a lot of planning to get to that point and the paths start in middle school.

[Joshin]

My eldest is planning for early admit through the community college in two years. We're lucky to live in a state that is very pro-high school/college dual enrollment and where the state colleges work closely with the CCs to come up with transfer programs. The program he's interested in has a transfer agreement with the Design Institute at the state college, where he can complete 2 or 3 years at a specific CC (two of them as a high school student instead of normal high school course work), and 1 to 2.5 years at the state uni.

 

CC's differ in quality and target different student bodies. Some are primarily for trades and certificates, others are more rigorous and mainly in the business of teaching transfer students. You have to shop around carefully for a CC, just like you would for a Uni, and it's pretty important to have some clear goals about future education choices. We've been advised he should work with both a counsellor at the CC and at the Uni each year as he plans his course schedule so he can keep abreast of any changes in the program from both institutions.

[G5052]

Seriously! I thought I was being a bit tiger mom when I started looking into DE and AP classes and how the state colleges in Texas treat them. Umm, no, if anything I did it just in time. It takes a lot of planning to get to that point and the paths start in middle school.

 

Yes, I complained to DH the other day about all the time I was spending getting this laid out.  It truly is so very complicated, and our goals are fairly narrow.  And unfortunately it can cost time and money if you don't have your plan in mind.

[Tokyomarie]

It is also important for students who plan to start at one state university and transfer to another university in the state system after a year or two to check out how each course will transfer. Years ago, when I did my undergrad, I started at a local state university and commuted to save money. I did work hard to check out transfer details, especially for the courses that were prerequisites for my major. However, I still had a surprise when I got to campus at the flagship university to find out that two courses I had taken as humanities gen ed requirements transferred in as social science gen eds, forcing me to take two more humanities courses to satisfy my gen eds. Unfortunately, there was zero flexibility in course scheduling for my major courses. I also could not afford another quarter on campus so in order to graduate on time, I did two killer quarters where I took more than 20 credit hours. I also worked part-time to pay my expenses, so I was pretty burned out on school by the time I finished.

[Lori D.]

G5052 -- Ug!  :grouphug: hugs and sympathy… We are feeling increasingly blessed to have a decent CC with a transfer agreement of specific courses with any of our state universities. BUT, you still have to watch out, as courses NOT on that list do not necessarily feed into a Bachelor's as one might wish… THANKS for the reminder; just sorry it's coming at a personal cost and frustration. :(

 

 

Tokyomarie -- Yikes!

 

On the other hand, while it wouldn't save time or money, at least nowdays most universities offer a number of those humanities as online classes, so having to "make up" 1-2 classes like this could be done in the summers, so you aren't crushed under that kind of credit load or have to commute (or stay on campus). But, it is expensive to take 1-2 courses from a 4-year university, as you miss out on any price-break they might offer for going full time (usually 12 credits or more). :(

[Laura in CA]

Wow, that's complicated! It's good you are being proactive!

 

A success story here in CA (where all of the 112 CCs have "articulation" agreements with the 4-year public schools -- 23 CSUs and 9 UCs): I just heard that my son's friend (who attended ps) was accepted at UC Berkeley as a transfer, having done 9 APs in high school (mostly on his own) and then spending a well-planned year living at home and attending our local CC. He goes in as a junior, having skipped a year of college and having saved on the order of $60k! Needless to say, his parents are thrilled. And I'm glad my son will have someone to hang out with! I figured out that my son, with his APs, DE CC & CSU classes, could probably graduate in just over 2 years ... but he wants to double major, perhaps double minor, *and* explore other areas too LOL. I look at that as a reward for all his hard work in high school. :)

 

I just read that 29% of all UC graduates, and 51% of all CSU graduates, started at a community college.

 

 

[Tokyomarie]

G5052 -- Ug!  :grouphug: hugs and sympathy… We are feeling increasingly blessed to have a decent CC with a transfer agreement of specific courses with any of our state universities. BUT, you still have to watch out, as courses NOT on that list do not necessarily feed into a Bachelor's as one might wish… THANKS for the reminder; just sorry it's coming at a personal cost and frustration. :(

 

 

Tokyomarie -- Yikes!

 

On the other hand, while it wouldn't save time or money, at least nowdays most universities offer a number of those humanities as online classes, so having to "make up" 1-2 classes like this could be done in the summers, so you aren't crushed under that kind of credit load or have to commute (or stay on campus). But, it is expensive to take 1-2 courses from a 4-year university, as you miss out on any price-break they might offer for going full time (usually 12 credits or more). :(

 

If I were advising someone in a similar situation today, I think I would recommend doing those gen eds at a community college, either online or in person, because the CC is usually less expensive. The key would be to get prior approval from the university's registrar to count them towards the graduation requirement.

 

[Laura in CA]

Ok. That explains a lot. I went to cc in CA and took a whole class about planning because I transferred around a lot. I remember as long as I kept the college catalog and syllabus for the class and they had it in print that was transferrable, it was transferrable. So it's not like that everywhere? Ack!! I need to read up on this stuff. I have a soon-to-be 9th grader. 

 

Yes, in CA now, of course, all the print catalogs (I miss them!) are online and the agreements are found at ASSIST.   Do you mean you're in a different state now? -- it might not be so clear or so organized ... Some states (for example, TX is mentioned a lot) seem to have comprehensive agreements. Here is a (partial) list by state of which four-years in many states have agreements, and with whom. Interesting! Oregon seems skimpy (at least on this chart), and Texas doesn't seem a comprehensive as I'd thought, but South Carolina (for example) has a network like CA's, apparently ...

 

This looks like an interesting site, although some of the links don't work and I can't vouch for its impartiality. But it says some schools have over 1000 articulation agreements? Wow.

[Laura in CA]

If I were advising someone in a similar situation today, I think I would recommend doing those gen eds at a community college, either online or in person, because the CC is usually less expensive. The key would be to get prior approval from the university's registrar to count them towards the graduation requirement.

 

Good advice! My son is planning to do some of his "breadth/gen ed" requirements at CC, over the summers, and he was advised to get them pre-approved. (Me, I think he should just relax ... he'll have a full-time job during the summer!)

[bettyandbob]

Our community college system has aligned specific courses to universities around the state. 

 

One program they have is direct transfer with no application required. The way it works is the students applies to this specific cc program. The application deadline is October before high school graduation. With such an early deadline, the students in the program are not going as an after thought. These students are assigned specific advisors and told exactly which courses to take. Up front they are told what GPA they must earn in order to get automatic admission to each school in the state (there are a few private schools in and out of state that participate as well). So, when students finish 2 years , they can look at the GPA and declare to attend any school that has that GPA listed as it's required GPA. It's worked pretty seamlessly for a few kids I know. 

 

For kids who don't apply to the specific transfer program, one strategy has been to get the list of courses a friend in the direct transfer program is taking and simply try to register for the same courses. Such students will  have to actually apply to transfer, but by taking these courses they know they will receive the credits they need. 

 

 

[mommymilkies]

It is also important for students who plan to start at one state university and transfer to another university in the state system after a year or two to check out how each course will transfer. Years ago, when I did my undergrad, I started at a local state university and commuted to save money. I did work hard to check out transfer details, especially for the courses that were prerequisites for my major. However, I still had a surprise when I got to campus at the flagship university to find out that two courses I had taken as humanities gen ed requirements transferred in as social science gen eds, forcing me to take two more humanities courses to satisfy my gen eds. Unfortunately, there was zero flexibility in course scheduling for my major courses. I also could not afford another quarter on campus so in order to graduate on time, I did two killer quarters where I took more than 20 credit hours. I also worked part-time to pay my expenses, so I was pretty burned out on school by the time I finished.

This.  I've gone to two community colleges and one university. I've had my transcripts evaluated at 3 different universities (one a top tier).  Less transferred from the University than the CC.  Dh works at a CC and has for years and his students usually transfer to U of I for engineering or Pre-med and don't have problems.  It largely seems to be an issue with location and articulation agreements.  Always check out articulation agreements at a CC or University before attending. 

[Lori D.]

If I were advising someone in a similar situation today, I think I would recommend doing those gen eds at a community college, either online or in person, because the CC is usually less expensive. The key would be to get prior approval from the university's registrar to count them towards the graduation requirement.

 

 

Yes. DH is finishing his Bachelor's this year at the University, and last semester was able to verify that one specific required  3-unit gen. ed. class could be taken at the CC and it would transfer (and it did) -- $265 (CC) vs. $2300 (univ.) for the same class. No joke.  :eek:

[*LC]

Just so those of us going this way know how complicated it can get.  I kinda knew, but it was worse than I thought.

....

Then I found out that the degree track we're considering at the closer school does NOT feed in cleanly to the 4-year school.  If DC starts at the closer school, the transfer agreement does not cover the major we're thinking of because the closer school doesn't teach some of the courses.  They are given general admission, but can't go right into into their major without taking certain courses.

 

.

 

Ugh, I'm sorry it is crazy complicated.

 

Just to make sure, I understand. The target 4-year school requires classes that the closer school doesn't offer before a transfer student in the intended major can take any major classes. The farther school offers these classes. How many classes is it?

 

Are they by any chance offerred online at the farther school, so your child can take them 1 at a time during the time at the closer school? Can your child take them during the summer sessions at the farther school while staying primarily at the closer school? Or, after finishing at the closer school before starting at the 4-year school? 

 

In order to get the exact classes she needed to fulfill her general ed requirements at her target school, my oldest took DE classes at both a local 4-year school and a the local CC. In order to make it all work with her public shool classes and other activities, she took the CC classes online. She also took one during the summer. 

 

In her case, it all worked out. But I had that sheet memorized this time last year. 

 

Good Luck.

[chiguirre]

Yes, in CA now, of course, all the print catalogs (I miss them!) are online and the agreements are found at ASSIST.   Do you mean you're in a different state now? -- it might not be so clear or so organized ... Some states (for example, TX is mentioned a lot) seem to have comprehensive agreements. Here is a (partial) list by state of which four-years in many states have agreements, and with whom. Interesting! Oregon seems skimpy (at least on this chart), and Texas doesn't seem a comprehensive as I'd thought, but South Carolina (for example) has a network like CA's, apparently ...

 

This looks like an interesting site, although some of the links don't work and I can't vouch for its impartiality. But it says some schools have over 1000 articulation agreements? Wow.

That list isn't complete for Texas. The course numbers are standardized and you can get a list of required core classes with their numbers on UT Austin and TAMU's websites. I think that list might be referring to guaranteed admissions or colleges that offer 4 year degrees through the CC system. I know that Sam Houston State offers 4 yr degrees at Lonestar college, for example.

[G5052]

Ugh, I'm sorry it is crazy complicated.

 

Just to make sure, I understand. The target 4-year school requires classes that the closer school doesn't offer before a transfer student in the intended major can take any major classes. The farther school offers these classes. How many classes is it?

 

Are they by any chance offerred online at the farther school, so your child can take them 1 at a time during the time at the closer school? Can your child take them during the summer sessions at the farther school while staying primarily at the closer school? Or, after finishing at the closer school before starting at the 4-year school? 

 

 

Yes, these are all questions I plan to ask.  There are three courses that are missing at the closer school, one is a two-semester sequence.  The school that is further away does indeed have an extensive online program (I'm one of their new online professors). 

 

As soon as we get past the AP/SAT II/CLEP tests, we'll make a trek to the 4-year school again to get their perspective.  Face-to-face seems to get more done with them.

 

A friend of mine went through this several years ago (different program), and her kid ended up transferring away from the local school.  He's in graduate school now.