SWR for Older Students

[lovinmomma]

I'm looking for any advice from those that have started using SWR with an older child. Specifically, my child will be in 5th grade (10/11 yo). I actually need for curriculum to not be very teacher intensive (I work 12 hr night shifts), but it's more important to me that dd learns how to apply her spelling in her daily activities instead of memorizing a list of words.

[lovinmomma]

Bump

[Tracy]

SWR is about as teacher-intensive as it gets, especially while you are learning the program.  There are some enrichment activities that can be done independently by an older child, but you need about a half hour teacher-intensive work per day, more if you have a child that is struggling.  Ds6 whizzes through it, but dd9 is very slow, even though she knows the phonograms and spelling rules pretty well.  She takes at least 45 minutes per day, and I combine and integrate activities to save on time.  Nevertheless, dd9 just placed at a 6th grade spelling level, so I know that it works for her.  

[Aloha2U]

SWR is about as teacher-intensive as it gets, especially while you are learning the program.  There are some enrichment activities that can be done independently by an older child, but you need about a half hour teacher-intensive work per day, more if you have a child that is struggling.

 

:iagree:  That being said, @lovinmomma, this a very good topic for discussion. I suggest posting it in the SWR Yahoo group as well.  

[Amy Jo]

Have you considered studied dictation instead? SWR takes time, and it has a learning curve. How is her spelling now?

 

Anyway, we moved from SWR to dictation (Spelling Wisdom) because of time. I am still toying with the idea of doing SWR together, 5 easier words (starting with list A) and 5 challenging words (starting from either L or M, older boys only) a day, and discussing them. And doing non-collecting reference pages on the whiteboard (pencil phobic kids).

 

One time-saver idea I read on the Yahoo group is to dictate 5-8 new words everyday, and then test on 20-40 words. To save time (this isn't from the SWR group) you could use Spelling City to do the testing. Then you'd only need to do the new words and any reference pages. You could probably cut down to 15 minutes or so per day, after you learned the program.

[lovinmomma]

I'm being confusing. Sorry about that. :) I've used SWR before, so I realize that it's teacher intensive. I'm just looking for ways to streamline it especially for older students as well as any tips anyone has for working with older students. She used AAS for K but she will have been in public schools for 4 years by the time we start SWR. In school she basically memorizes lists and her test grade is completely reliant on how many times we go over her list. She struggles with applying those words correctly in her other work.

[lovinmomma]

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[LivingHope]

I have three older children who are working independently through the WISE Guide lists using the SWR Companion CD's.

http://www.rainbowresource.com/product/Spell+to+Write+and+Read+Companion+6+CD+Set/040097

They start with a quiz of the previous day's list (listening to the list on audio). Then they use the WISE guide and record the new list in their notebooks. I have my children try to analyse and mark the new words on the left hand page in the guide before looking at the right hand page with the marking information. They then correct their new list of words. We do a spelling diagnostic test the first Monday of the month.This method probably would not be recommended by SWR teachers, but some spelling is better than no spelling. I wasn't getting to this program with the older children (I am homeschooling 8 children) but could not give it up yet. The results of this month's diagnostic tests show this method is working (one child tested out of the lists with a perfect diagnostic test score, and the other two have jumped up three grade levels since we started this three or four months ago). 

 

In conjunction with this, these children also independently use the Spelling Wisdom dictation books by Simply Charlotte Mason. They study their new dictation passage by typing it out and carefully studying any words that may be difficult. When ready to do the dictation, the children record themselves (using the computer's recorder) reading the passage so they can dictate to themselves (the dictation is written out by hand and not typed this time). Since the children cannot move on to the next lesson without perfecting their dictation, this process may take a day to several days. Again, this is probably not the best way to do dictation, but it is working for us here. 

[FO4UR]

Apples & Pears is worth looking at.  The lessons are teacher-driven, but it's completely 100% scripted, and the lessons are much MUCH shorter than SWR.  It's an effective program, seeing the spelling improve across the curriculum.

 

Just thought I'd put it out there.  SWR is asking for crash & burn if you don't have the time to put into it, even if you already know how to work it.

[RootAnn]

I haven't tried it, but I like LivingHope's way.

 

Another thing would be to record yourself reading the lists from the beginning (A) & have her quiz on them (20-40/day) until she gets to where she's missing quite a few. Then, you have her write those lists in her learning log & mark them (either from your audio or from the actual Wise list). She can do some of the enrichments on her own & you quiz her at the end of the week with two lists worth of material plus review words. I would make sure to include some review words in full sentence dictation on each week's quiz to see how she's doing on retaining the proper spelling. 

 

Doing sentences-as-tests is harder than individual words.

[Hunter]

I have three older children who are working independently through the WISE Guide lists using the SWR Companion CD's.

http://www.rainbowresource.com/product/Spell+to+Write+and+Read+Companion+6+CD+Set/040097

They start with a quiz of the previous day's list (listening to the list on audio). Then they use the WISE guide and record the new list in their notebooks. I have my children try to analyse and mark the new words on the left hand page in the guide before looking at the right hand page with the marking information. They then correct their new list of words. We do a spelling diagnostic test the first Monday of the month.This method probably would not be recommended by SWR teachers, but some spelling is better than no spelling. I wasn't getting to this program with the older children (I am homeschooling 8 children) but could not give it up yet. The results of this month's diagnostic tests show this method is working (one child tested out of the lists with a perfect diagnostic test score, and the other two have jumped up three grade levels since we started this three or four months ago). 

 

In conjunction with this, these children also independently use the Spelling Wisdom dictation books by Simply Charlotte Mason. They study their new dictation passage by typing it out and carefully studying any words that may be difficult. When ready to do the dictation, the children record themselves (using the computer's recorder) reading the passage so they can dictate to themselves (the dictation is written out by hand and not typed this time). Since the children cannot move on to the next lesson without perfecting their dictation, this process may take a day to several days. Again, this is probably not the best way to do dictation, but it is working for us here. 

 

I'm looking at quite a few programs to possibly use less teacher intensively. Some progress is better than no progress. And sometimes it's better to partially use a few programs, than to intensively do just one. Thanks for sharing.

[ElizabethB]

I would do Spelling Plus and Spelling Dictation instead, much more streamlined.

[Hunter]

Is "Spelling Dictation" a curriculum?

[EmilyGF]

When I read the WRTR handbook, I realized that SWR recommends a lot more phonogram daily review than WRTR recommends. Doing review for 10 min per day (including phonograms and spelling words) seems more reasonable to me. 

 

Really, SWR can be open and go, but the teacher needs to be active the whole time!

[RootAnn]

Is "Spelling Dictation" a curriculum?

 

I  think she's referring to the Dictation Resource book that goes with Spelling Plus. FWIW, I tried using the DR one year along with the Spelling Plus lists (which are in the DR book, BTW). The method, as I understood it & was using it, was a complete failure with my two olders. I basically consider that a "lost year" -- and I went back to SWR.

 

Other people's mileage may vary. It only took 1/2 the time of SWR the way we used it, but I wish I would have just found a way to modify SWR that year.

[ElizabethB]

I think she's referring to the Dictation Resource book that goes with Spelling Plus. FWIW, I tried using the DR one year along with the Spelling Plus lists (which are in the DR book, BTW). The method, as I understood it & was using it, was a complete failure with my two olders. I basically consider that a "lost year" -- and I went back to SWR.

 

Other people's mileage may vary. It only took 1/2 the time of SWR the way we used it, but I wish I would have just found a way to modify SWR that year.

You need the Soelling Plus book to use it properly. It has the rules for each list. The dictation book just practices the words in sentences.

[LivingHope]

When I read the WRTR handbook, I realized that SWR recommends a lot more phonogram daily review than WRTR recommends. Doing review for 10 min per day (including phonograms and spelling words) seems more reasonable to me. 

 

Really, SWR can be open and go, but the teacher needs to be active the whole time!

 

I just want to clarify that my children who are doing SWR independently using the audio CD's are ten years old and older. I agree with Emily that the teacher needs to be active the entire time. I work with my younger children and love the finger spelling technique. My routine with younger children goes something like this:

5 minutes: phonogram review (We go through the 70 phonograms quickly, then I choose only 5 phonograms to quiz)

10 minutes: quiz previous day's spelling words 

5 minutes: review a SWR chart (Friday has no phonogram review, quiz, or new list because we concentrate on chart work and WISE guide activities)

15 minutes: new words dictation (We stop when the 15 minute timer stops.)

[lovinmomma]

Fyi... I'm keeping up with this thread and will be back to comment. Life got busy quickly. :)

[RootAnn]

You need the Spelling Plus book to use it properly. It has the rules for each list. The dictation book just practices the words in sentences.

 

It was pretty obvious what the rules were for most lists, IMO. That wasn't our issue. My kids just don't do well learning grammar or spelling through dictation as a primary method - which is what I was using the Dictation Resource book for in order to try to save time on those subjects. I didn't realize it before we started - so we crashed and burned. 

 

I'm sure it works great for others. Just wanted to add what worked or didn't work for us. I wish we would have stayed with SWR that year. 

[lovinmomma]

I have three older children who are working independently through the WISE Guide lists using the SWR Companion CD's.

http://www.rainbowresource.com/product/Spell+to+Write+and+Read+Companion+6+CD+Set/040097

They start with a quiz of the previous day's list (listening to the list on audio). Then they use the WISE guide and record the new list in their notebooks. I have my children try to analyse and mark the new words on the left hand page in the guide before looking at the right hand page with the marking information. They then correct their new list of words. We do a spelling diagnostic test the first Monday of the month.This method probably would not be recommended by SWR teachers, but some spelling is better than no spelling. I wasn't getting to this program with the older children (I am homeschooling 8 children) but could not give it up yet. The results of this month's diagnostic tests show this method is working (one child tested out of the lists with a perfect diagnostic test score, and the other two have jumped up three grade levels since we started this three or four months ago). 

 

In conjunction with this, these children also independently use the Spelling Wisdom dictation books by Simply Charlotte Mason. They study their new dictation passage by typing it out and carefully studying any words that may be difficult. When ready to do the dictation, the children record themselves (using the computer's recorder) reading the passage so they can dictate to themselves (the dictation is written out by hand and not typed this time). Since the children cannot move on to the next lesson without perfecting their dictation, this process may take a day to several days. Again, this is probably not the best way to do dictation, but it is working for us here. 

 

Hmmm... this is very interesting. This is something that I will certainly give some serious thought to. It would be a great way to have some of the work be independent.

[lovinmomma]

Apples & Pears is worth looking at.  The lessons are teacher-driven, but it's completely 100% scripted, and the lessons are much MUCH shorter than SWR.  It's an effective program, seeing the spelling improve across the curriculum.

 

Just thought I'd put it out there.  SWR is asking for crash & burn if you don't have the time to put into it, even if you already know how to work it.

 

I've never looked at Apples & Pears. Thank you. I will go and check it out!

[lovinmomma]

I haven't tried it, but I like LivingHope's way.

 

Another thing would be to record yourself reading the lists from the beginning (A) & have her quiz on them (20-40/day) until she gets to where she's missing quite a few. Then, you have her write those lists in her learning log & mark them (either from your audio or from the actual Wise list). She can do some of the enrichments on her own & you quiz her at the end of the week with two lists worth of material plus review words. I would make sure to include some review words in full sentence dictation on each week's quiz to see how she's doing on retaining the proper spelling. 

 

Doing sentences-as-tests is harder than individual words.

 

Would you please explain what you mean by the bolded part?

[lovinmomma]

I would do Spelling Plus and Spelling Dictation instead, much more streamlined.

 

Thank you for the suggestion. I will have a look at this, too!

[lovinmomma]

When I read the WRTR handbook, I realized that SWR recommends a lot more phonogram daily review than WRTR recommends. Doing review for 10 min per day (including phonograms and spelling words) seems more reasonable to me. 

 

Really, SWR can be open and go, but the teacher needs to be active the whole time!

 

What do you think makes the time difference? More review of phonograms? Less words per day?

[lovinmomma]

I just want to clarify that my children who are doing SWR independently using the audio CD's are ten years old and older. I agree with Emily that the teacher needs to be active the entire time. I work with my younger children and love the finger spelling technique. My routine with younger children goes something like this:

5 minutes: phonogram review (We go through the 70 phonograms quickly, then I choose only 5 phonograms to quiz)

10 minutes: quiz previous day's spelling words 

5 minutes: review a SWR chart (Friday has no phonogram review, quiz, or new list because we concentrate on chart work and WISE guide activities)

15 minutes: new words dictation (We stop when the 15 minute timer stops.)

 

Thank you for typing that all out for me! :)

[RootAnn]

Would you please explain what you mean by the bolded part?

 

Sure - So, when you are doing a test with just words, all you have to think about is how to make each individual letter (unless that is automatic) and how to spell the word. 

 

When you are writing a sentence, you have to remember capitalization, punctuation, the words in order (hold the sentence in your head), how to spell each word, and how to make each individual letter. You've just added three more things on top of "how to spell the word." So, if you stop to think, "How do I spell that word?" you might lose part of the sentence in your head. You might stop to think, "Do I capitalize this word?" or, "How do I make a capital [whatever letter]?" since you don't use capitals very often so they aren't as automatic as lowercase. Then, you come upon a word that is difficult to spell and just rush over it without stopping to think about it because you have to just write-down-the-rest-of-the-sentence-before-you-forget-it! And the time pressure for all that because you know your mom is going to read another sentence pretty quick or reread the one you are working on and you want to get most of it down before she rereads it so you can check that you got the whole sentence!

 

My kids will miss 50% more words if they are writing a sentence as a test than just words on a test.

 

Edited to add:  The more you do dictation (studied or non-studied), the easier it is to do all these things at once and still think to spell. It is a skill to be learned, like handwriting. Some kids are better at it than others, but most improve with practice.

[lovinmomma]

Sure - So, when you are doing a test with just words, all you have to think about is how to make each individual letter (unless that is automatic) and how to spell the word. 

 

When you are writing a sentence, you have to remember capitalization, punctuation, the words in order (hold the sentence in your head), how to spell each word, and how to make each individual letter. You've just added three more things on top of "how to spell the word." So, if you stop to think, "How do I spell that word?" you might lose part of the sentence in your head. You might stop to think, "Do I capitalize this word?" or, "How do I make a capital [whatever letter]?" since you don't use capitals very often so they aren't as automatic as lowercase. Then, you come upon a word that is difficult to spell and just rush over it without stopping to think about it because you have to just write-down-the-rest-of-the-sentence-before-you-forget-it! And the time pressure for all that because you know your mom is going to read another sentence pretty quick or reread the one you are working on and you want to get most of it down before she rereads it so you can check that you got the whole sentence!

 

My kids will miss 50% more words if they are writing a sentence as a test than just words on a test.

 

Edited to add:  The more you do dictation (studied or non-studied), the easier it is to do all these things at once and still think to spell. It is a skill to be learned, like handwriting. Some kids are better at it than others, but most improve with practice.

 

Huh. That's an excellent explanation. Thank you very much. :)

[ellebro]

I'm considering doing a combination of Spelling Plus/Dictation Resource Book + SWR for the spring semester. I think the phonograms/rules/marking system of SWR is very valuable, but I just don't have the time next semester to do the full SWR program (we are starting Classical Writing so I will need a lot of time and energy for that.)  Also I *really* like the Spelling Plus word lists and dictation sentences (dictation sentences include a spiral review of all past words.)  I'm thinking I will use Spelling Plus word lists but use SWR markings  + daily phonogram review and weekly rule review with flash cards. I have the SWR Alpha list so it would be fairly simple to find the markings for the SP words. 

 

This is what I'm thinking: 

Monday: phonograms (oral review and written quiz) + complete reference pages

Tuesday: oral phonogram review + dictate new word list with SWR markings 

Wednesday: oral phonogram review + dictate 5 sentences

Thursday: oral phonogram review + dictate 5 sentences

 

This would probably get us, by the end of spring semester, all the way to the end of the Spelling Plus lists, which go through 6th grade.  My kids are in 5th and 3rd grades but the 3rd grader is a natural speller.  

 

Has anyone else done SWR in a simplified way such as this or combined it with other programs?

 

 

[RootAnn]

I tried just switching to the Dictation Resource Book one year with my two older kids at about the same age you are looking at for time reasons as well. I thought I didn't have time to do SWR with them and loved the idea of the SP/DRB lists. I didn't include SWR work at all, FWIW, except when we marked missed words. 

 

It was a colossal waste of time for us. I feel like I lost a year of SWR / a year of spelling improvement. Everytime I leave SWR for something else (eldest did a little less than a semester of Megawords because I thought it would be great for syllabification and save me time), I end up back with SWR. I've learned that for us, still doing the program and just spending less time per day on it, is the better tactic. We might not move forward much, but I don't lose as much spelling knowledge.

 

Each kid & family is different, so it might would great for you. Just sharing how what I tried didn't work for us.

[ellebro]

Really, if the Wise Guide had a full set of dictation sentences for each level, I would probably just go with SWR completely. I wish someone would make a Dictation Resource Book companion to the Wise Guide!  Dictation sentences really work well for my kids to really help the spellings sink into their long-term memories.  Or at least, I know it works for my son -- he made good progress last year doing only dictation sentences with occasional phonogram work.  But I do feel like I need to add in more spelling theory and analysis, and I like the way SWR approaches that.  My daughter is a natural speller so almost anything will work for her.  She did, however, seem to find dictation sentences tedious when we did that every day for spelling and nothing else.  I think mixing in a good bit of SWR work -- phonograms, reference pages, marking all words every week  -- will provide some variety and also will help them connect the spelling of individual words to the big picture, the overall spelling patterns of the English language.  I think the SWR theory/analysis will make a nice learning "sandwich" with the intensive practice provided by regular sentence dictations.  Kind of like how Classical Writing has its two complementary sides, Analysis/Theory + Writing Practice.  

 

 In a way I guess I'll be using SWR for the method and theory and Spelling Plus for the content.    

 

Since we'll go all the way through the end of the Spelling Plus lists this year, I'll probably start them back in the Wise Guide lists at the beginning of next year. Even now they would probably place fairly high, so I imagine they'll place somewhere in the middle of the Wise Guide levels at least.  Hopefully by  that point I'll have the SWR method down pat and will have more time and energy to create my own dictation sentences.  For this year, though, I am drawn to the open and go simplicity of having all the sentences done for me.

 

By the way, what did you think of my tentative weekly schedule? You mentioned that you do a streamlined version of SWR; what is your weekly routine?

[Tracy]

I am using Modern Speller for my dictation sentences.  

 

Here is the second book for more advanced students.