Is this typical or stealth dyslexia or ... ? (7.5yo copywork issues)

[forty-two]

We haven't done much in the way of writing thus far.  And dd7.5's writing skills aren't very good.  I've been assuming there was a very direct connection between the two ;).  But now, as I've started doing copywork with her, I am wondering if there's a bit more than just not being taught much and not writing much.  I've read a lot of the stealth dyslexia threads, and I see a lot of her there. 

 

Dd7.5 taught herself how to write the alphabet around age 4 and 5, and her writing now isn't much better than then.  I ran through the alphabet over Christmas with her (which has helped her handwriting become more even) and I explicitly taught her about using her finger to space words (she'd run them together otherwise), and then tried to start copywork, but she balked at even 4 word sentences - wanted individual words.  So I dropped copywork and tried to do spelling with her, but we had issues and it turns out her phonemic awareness is bad enough that she failed the Barton pre-screening.  So I bought LiPS and am reading up on it, and dropped spelling for now.  But I didn't want to give up on writing altogether, so I restarted copywork.  She resists it - says it's hard - but she can do a short sentence.

 

She does write on her own, but not as much as she used to - she just can't write what's in her head and it frustrates her (it's what prompted me to get off my duff and make writing a priority right now).  She does do better on the iPad than handwriting - I don't know if that's because of the physical act of writing or what.  I've pulled out my copy of The Writer's Jungle and have thought about buying Jot it Down, to keep on with the creative and thinking part of writing while we work on mechanics.  WRT oral narrations, she resists telling me when I ask, but often narrates spontaneously (and very well), as well as incorporates what she reads and what I read to her into her play, so I don't know if that's an issue or not. 

 

Anyway, what prompted this post is that today she brought home some work from Sunday school, where she'd been copying down the Ten Commandments.  The First Commandment is fine (and in fact we've done that as copywork at home), but the Second Commandment had several small words missing and had some of the words out of order, and generally didn't make sense.  ("You shall misuse the name your God" was what she had.)  Her handwriting and spacing was pretty good, though.  And I was wondering if that is just inexperience or something more than that.  (Although I wonder if it was from dictation rather than copywork, which with her PA issues could definitely be an issue.)

 

Because I thought her phonemic awareness issues had improved when really she just got better at compensating for them.  I've been sounding out words for her to spell since she was 4, and she *still* can't break down a word into phonemes on her own (thus the LiPS).  I don't want to assume she just needs time and "regular" practice if she actually needs something more (that's what I thought with the PA issues, and I was wrong - she learned to read well without ever picking up those skills).  But otoh, she's not had a lot of practice writing.  To *me* missing those "little" words and writing the words out of order seems like more than just needing practice.  But she's my first, so I don't really know what is typical.

[sweetpea3829]

Have you had her vision screened with a developmental optometrist to rule out developmental vision issues?  

 

ETA: After re-reading, I would also like to ask, are there any other signs of perhaps an auditory processing concern?  

 

 

[forty-two]

Have you had her vision screened with a developmental optometrist to rule out developmental vision issues?  

 

ETA: After re-reading, I would also like to ask, are there any other signs of perhaps an auditory processing concern?  

 

Never really had a reason to think there was a vision issue (and I've read a lot of the threads here on such).  But auditory processing issues have been on my radar ever since I found out that my mom's inability to sound out a word from a dictionary pronunciation guide was more than just "not getting phonics".  Both mom and I have some signs of auditory processing issues, and with dd7.5's phonemic awareness issues, it was on my radar.  But when I read over the characteristics of the various subtypes of auditory processing disorder, none of them really stick out.  I've wondered dyslexia, because dd7.5 has some of the markers for that, and learning to read was hard for her until something clicked.  But she always seems to be hovering on the edge of having an issue, and makes a jump just as I'm waffling about if there's a real issue (and on her PA issues it seems the jump was her learning to compensate).

[Clear Creek]

It sounds to me like a big leap in skills...you went from knowing letter formation straight to copying sentences.  In my experience, kids gradually work from learning letter formation to copying whole words to copying a sentence over the course of their entire first grade year, with handwriting practice every day in order to build up strength in their hand.  I would back up a bit and just have her copy several words two or three times every day, and work your way up to an entire sentence. 

[zoobie]

Could be something simple like fine motor weakness, or it could be indicative of dyslexia or dysgraphia. You could start with an OT eval (usually covered by health insurance) and move on to more if your "mom gut" tells you something else is happening.

[sweetpea3829]

I agree with the OT eval, but I would suggest the developmental vision screening "just in case" as well as the auditory processing screening.  

 

My husband is dyslexic, and his symptoms primarily are a result of auditory processing weaknesses.  Like your daughter, his phonemic awareness is weak.  He can tell you what a letter says, but he cannot easily identify the sounds he hears in words.  Hence, his spelling is awful.  

 

My daughter, on the other hand, has some similarities with yours....there are some red flags for dyslexia, but she just doesn't really "fit".  She actually does pretty well with phonemic awareness, but has significant weaknesses with receptive language.  She reads ok, but even still...I see those minor whispers that, to me, indicate there's a bigger problem.  She has some documented visuo-motor integration issues and some spatial issues.  

 

My daughter's biggest learning issues are with math.  

 

Anyways, I would suggest having those screenings done, just to rule anything out.  

[forty-two]

Ok, I just asked her, and she wrote them (or tried to) from memory.  She said she was the only person who didn't finish (she only got part way through the third commandment), and she was sad about it plus sad that her writing was "squiggly" compared to the other students' neat writing.  I'm pretty sure the memory part wasn't the issue - I've heard her recite them (although now that we are practicing, she asked me what the first commandment was, so...) - but the writing them part. 

 

Ugh.  I feel pretty low now.  And I'm being reminded of all the reasons that we don't get to writing, as dd5 must be involved (so I have to give her something to copy), and dd7.5 is stealing dd5's pencil and writing on her paper, and ds2.5 is getting into everything, and everyone is screeching and the girls are talking more than writing and now dd5 is scribbling on dd7.5's paper :gah.

 

How long should it take for a 7.5yo to write a five word sentence?  It's really hard to tell with her, because it takes too long, but so much of that is because she is doing everything *but* writing.  But it probably takes her at least a minute to write one small word, which does seem long now that I think about it.  And when she tries to speed up it looks messy fast.

[forty-two]

It sounds to me like a big leap in skills...you went from knowing letter formation straight to copying sentences.  In my experience, kids gradually work from learning letter formation to copying whole words to copying a sentence over the course of their entire first grade year, with handwriting practice every day in order to build up strength in their hand.  I would back up a bit and just have her copy several words two or three times every day, and work your way up to an entire sentence. 

 

I wondered.  But is it really harder to write one four word sentence than to write four separate words?  Genuinely asking here.  I'm not seeing it, but dd7.5 definitely acted like multiple single words were easier than one sentence, so....

[forty-two]

Watching her attempt to copy the first commandment over the course of 10 minutes and stopping with five words written, handwriting itself seems hard for her.  (She's a lefty, if that makes any difference.)  Wrt OT screening, what should I look for in terms of "not enough practice" versus "problem practice alone isn't going to solve"?  (I'll look up what our insurance will cover, but anything it doesn't is going to be out of reach.)

 

Also, we didn't do a formal handwriting program.  Worth doing now?

[Incognito]

FWIW, what I have done in our house is the kids do two pages from a Simply Charlotte Mason copybook each morning.  Ours is usually after breakfast, but sometimes goes before eating as well.  It helps to have the younger kid(s) occupied, and the older ones might be more motivated to do it if they needed to finish before eating?

 

There are different levelled books in SCM, one of which teaches letter formation.  I found that doing these books with my kids helped me know more what has been from lack of use and from personal struggle.  One of my kids has to work very hard at the writing of it, the other worked harder at first, but with practice it has gotten easier for that child (well, it has gotten easier for both, but one still struggles).

 

I'm no expert - our printing work is a work in progress, and one of my kids apparently has visual-motor integration struggles (recent testing), but if you are looking to discern for yourself if practice is what you need, having a simple plan in place and trying out practice first is quite inexpensive.

[sweetpea3829]

I would say a formal handwriting program could be helpful...however...my daughter went through Handwriting Without Tears for two years, and her handwriting was actually pretty good.  It took FOREVER for her to actually learn HOW to form each letter...HWT was certainly NOT without tears for us.  But she did eventually conquer it and her handwriting was decent.  

 

Over the last year, however, her handwriting has continued to deteriorate, despite our return to daily practice.  

 

ETA: This deterioration is likely due to her visual-motor integration issues.  

 

As to your question...my kiddos started copywork last year and it did not take them too long to copy a sentence...especially with it being copywork.  My 7 yr old son can take a bit of time to do his writing, but only when he's taking painstaking measures to ensure his handwriting is impeccable.  But hes' a bit of a perfectionist sooo....I wouldn't consider his handwriting typical for a 7 yr old boy...it is much much neater than most...lol.  

[OneStepAtATime]

You might post this question on the Learning Challenges board since your child is having learning challenges.  I get lots of very useful info over there whenever my children are struggling....

[EndOfOrdinary]

My son did not like the act of writing, so he just plain fought the concept of it. Things that shouldn't have, took him forever because he just wasn't jazzed about it. When he started formal instruction in handwriting and one sentence every morning (no fussing) it began to get better. He knows how to do it. That doesn't mean he does it, just that he knows how.

 

It sounds like you need to eliminate the worry about her not knowing how versus not being able to even if she wanted to.

 

The only way I would know of doing that is to have a really up front conversation with her that you are worried there might be something bigger going on. Ask her directly if she will talk about it, because it doesn't mean she is dumb/bad/broken just that you want to help her if her brain and eyes work differently.

 

FWIW, my son is not dyslexic. He is a very strong reader. His father was a letter flipper and I am pretty sure has auditory processing issues. Dad also has a Masters degree in teaching English, but didn't really start reading or writing effectively till he was 11. There is hope!

[Clear Creek]

I wondered.  But is it really harder to write one four word sentence than to write four separate words?  Genuinely asking here.  I'm not seeing it, but dd7.5 definitely acted like multiple single words were easier than one sentence, so....

 

I think half the battle is mental, which is why four separate words would seem easier than one four-word sentence.  To a young child, the sum of the parts does not seem to be as great as the whole.  For example, when my middle child was that age, if I told her to go clean her room she would have a total meltdown at the thought of all the work that was involved.  But if I told her to go clean up her barbies and report back to me when she was done, then pick up her little people and report back to me, then pick up her dirtly clothes and report back to me...in no time her room would be clean, and in her mind it was not that hard.

 

All three of my children have been like that with handwriting.  Small steps, slowly working up to greater amounts, and by the end of first grade they could all write once sentence as copywork and two sentences from dictation.  But they slowly worked their way from individual letter practice to words to sentences over the space of nine months.  It is like the frog in the pot on the stove...it builds up so gradually that they hardly notice the increase in difficulty.

[Walking-Iris]

Just a thought...

you say her phonemic awareness isn't good, and you dropped spelling...how is her reading?

 

Mainly...can she *read* the Ten Commandments you're asking her to write? Honestly, if not, then why ask her to do it? 

 

I try to keep my 1st graders copywork within the realm of words he can read, or can read with some help from me. 

 

It does seem to be a stretch to expect long copywork if you're still working on handwriting/spelling/reading. 

 

Maybe back up and do a small bit of handwriting each day. Explode the Code is excellent in covering both handwriting/phonics, and a bit of spelling. And the child wouldn't have to write so much. 

 

Just work on the skills a little each day. Don't be in a rush to get to the next step.

[Incognito]

Explode the Code could be a great idea - I will caution that for my child that had these struggles it didn't work well, but we tried it when she was in Kindergarten, so it may just have been an age issue.  I found for my DD that doing the copy work has been easier - it is a separate subject and she isn't having to think about other things besides writing while writing.  Copy work also helps because she can see what to write.

[MerryAtHope]

Could be dyslexia, could be a vision processing or tracking issue (check www.covd.org), it could relate to ADHD, it could be the auditory processing--or even a combination of issues.

 

That she thinks individual words could relate to any of these as well. It's less to focus on at once--she may have trouble looking at only one part of a sentence or thinking about it as "parts" versus the whole--she may feel she has to remember it all and copy it all. She may lose her place in the sentence. She may feel overwhelmed by all the words versus individual words. She may get caught up thinking about the idea of the sentence and be distracted.

 

Truthfully, I would stop the copywork with her. I know you want her writing--work on handwriting. I learned the hard way that doing copywork before a student is ready for it actually reinforces the wrong habits--and leaves you with work to undo later on. (See "Mistake #2 in my blog post on 6 writing mistakes.)  

 

Work on the LiPS and phonemic awareness skills. When she's ready, reintroduce spelling with a program that helps her visually see how to segment words to augment her auditory struggles and help her strengthen that pathway. (All About Spelling helped us with this because it uses multiple learning pathways).

 

When she is confident with segmenting words, you could try copywork again (but I'd start with dictation instead for this type of student because they can't copy a word visually like it's a phone number--they do have to pay attention to the sounds to write the word. And when they miss sounds in dictation, you can see where the struggle is and reinforce that area.)

 

Then, when you do use copywork, make sure to choose passages that she can not only read, but ones where she thoroughly understands how the phonograms are working. Teach any that she is unfamiliar with. Have her read the passage back to you before she writes it. Let her ask questions about words and what they mean or how they are spelled. Teach the passage directly (the way you would studied dictation).

 

Personally, I find that copywork is a better tool for teaching literary elements than for teaching mechanics, especially spelling. For struggling students, I think copywork can exacerbate struggles, and we have to be watchful. HTH some! Merry :-)

[Pen]

I think when you are wondering if things are okay or not, that it is wise, if possible, to look into it with some official evaluations that can pick up on whether it is normal and just needs time and practice, or if there is something wrong.  If all is well and only problem is more practice is needed, then you can be reassured. Otoh, if the situation is not within normal limits, then you would be able to start sooner rather than later on the path to figuring out what, and what to do about it, saving a lot of frustration and wrong paths, and often remediating dyslexia type problems, if that is relevant, is easier when started earlier, or at least knowing there is dysgraphia, if that is relevant, can help to have reasonable goals for written work.