Please Recommend a Math for possibly 2E child- Beast Academy?

[Paige]

I have a child who has always struggled with math. She doesn't get the easy things like counting or calendars. She can compute the difficult things, like 3 digit multiplication, fairly easily but show her a calendar and ask her what day it will be in 2 weeks and she cries. She can follow directions for complicated crafts like a savant. These crafts can require complex mathematical thinking and skills, but she doesn't realize it because it doesn't feel like math to her. She is so good at that kind of stuff that she makes me feel stupid. She's 9 and about 1/2 yr behind in math. She is a perfectionist and has a lot of anxiety. The anxiety is worse in math, but she feels it in many other situations as well.

 

We have tried MM, Dreambox, Everyday Math and Harcourt at schools, cheapo workbooks, Timez Attack, Shiller, and a little MEP. She doesn't like any of them and she doesn't like games. Games involve too much pressure with her perfectionism and trigger her anxiety.

 

I was thinking of trying Beast Academy, but that sounds a little crazy, right? She loves comics, however, and I thought it may make math more like a craft-type situation. She may not feel like it's really math if she thinks it's a comic, and her anxiety may not be triggered like it is when she sees a page of problems. I had her tested and the brief assessment showed that contrary to my expectations, her visual processing was super high while her auditory processing was significantly lower. DD prefers to work alone as much as possible; probably because her auditory skills are weaker and she prefers silence when she's processing something new. I thought BA may teach to her strengths but I'm nervous about purchasing it because it is spoken of as being for kids gifted in math. I was thinking about only purchasing 3B and maybe 3C.

 

We have been using MM consistently at home and trying most of the others as supplements. I'm not really a curriculum hopper. We'd probably keep up doing MM a little w/ the Beast Academy unless she really took to it. I'm really wanting to just get her past this hump she's stuck on. She has so much anxiety right now that I don't think she can learn anything. I feel like if she had some successes and a boost in confidence that everything would come together more easily for her as her anxiety subsides.

 

Is there another program you would recommend and has anyone used BA successfully with a struggling student? I saw some critiques that BA is not great for kids with dyslexia but she does not struggle with that.

[PeterPan]

Not helpful, but is it possible the craft things go well because of her VSL strengths?  

 

It's very possible to have a math disability technically and actually be surprisingly math gifted, especially with certain aspects.  Does BA have sample pages?  

 

Has she had a full eval btw? Counseling for the anxiety?   

[geodob]

Hi Paige,

Math anxiety is a very real disorder, and also termed as math phobia.

Where the anxiety externally effects the ability to do math, as opposed to an actual math disability.

 

While we think of anxiety as a 'feeling'?

What is happening at a functional level?  Is a fleeting thought of 'doubt', as one thinks or works through a process.

Where this brief thought of 'doubt', has the effect of disrupting our train of thought and the process of thinking through something.

With the result that one needs to start all over again.

But as one starts over again, the thought of doubt from the previous attempt is recalled?

Which disrupts thinking again, so that one has start all over again.

Where this has a snowball effect, and the repeated attempts just reinforce the doubt.

 

Though you also mentioned that she is a 'perfectionist'?

Where you might look at this in terms of activities where she has no thought of 'doubt' about her ability to carry out an activity.

Where it has become a sort of 'reflex thought' ?

 

Where this has a broader impact on learning, as making mistakes and learning from them. Is fundamental to the learning process.

So that I would rather suggest that the focus really needs to be on helping her to put these thoughts of perfectionism, anxiety and doubt aside?

So that she feels free to make mistakes and learn from them.

[FairProspects]

I'm not sure I would try BA with a child with anxiety about math. The whole philosophy of BA is to encourage a child to struggle and perservere. BA is very hard on my SPD kid because it causes so much frustration - and he actually enjoys a challenge once he gets past his initial upset. I really think it might make a math anxious kid worse, but if you do decide to try it, I would probably start with 3A. 3A starts with geometry and tangram puzzles and is the least like regular arithmetic and more like math logic.

[Paige]

She had a limited evaluation- whatever the insurance would pay for. The person who did the eval said he didn't think she needed ongoing counseling, and for her, going to the counselor was anxiety producing on its own. At this point, I don't think another counselor would help and I don't want to medicate, although I've considered it and may revisit the issue if she doesn't outgrow some of it. She seems to be getting better.

 

I thought Beast Academy may bypass her anxiety triggers because it is so different from other maths. I see math difficulties in two areas. The first is a confidence issue- years of struggling have caused her to doubt herself. She'll hand me a page with sad pictures drawn all over it and tell me everything is probably wrong. Everything is frequently correct. It's better, however, because a couple years ago she wouldn't even hand me the paper. She would have done it, erased it, drawn sad faces, and then tried to throw it away. I could see that she frequently had everything correct under the eraser marks.

 

For her problem areas- the basics- she just doesn't seem to understand the language of math on the page- equals, add, subtract, difference, before, more, less...those seem to be words that are foreign to her and she's trying to figure out. She makes errors that make NO sense. with my other kids and those I've tutored, I could follow their thought patterns and see where errors were made and why. With her, I have no clue how she gets where she does, but there must be a reason because there's usually a pattern. I've asked her to explain, but she can't or won't, so I can't figure out what misconception is tripping her up. I think she may be looking for a pattern to follow instead of thinking about each problem individually. I am wary of giving her a procedural math because I think she would do well without ever understanding.

 

When she does crafts, she doesn't question what it means and just intuitively gets what to do. She can see the relationships, the patterns, and how to fit them together without really thinking about it. She can do tangram type puzzles better than anyone I've seen. She can even do the math to get things she wants to do just right without realizing she did math. She can measure, manipulate shapes, do arithmetic, or whatever else she needs if it's part of the whole, but stumbles when it is pulled out in isolation. It's not just that the directions tell her step by step what to do, because sometimes the directions are useless, but she'll see decide she wants to change them, and then is able to come up with her own plans that work. I was thinking of skipping BA 3A because she's so good at that stuff already. Maybe we should do that to give her confidence first?

 

Geodob, my DS has OCD, and what you described as math phobia reminds me of that. Maybe DD is a little OCD about her math problems. Perhaps she's getting intrusive thoughts that she is wrong, or a compulsion to erase and do over endlessly...I'd never thought of it like that, but it makes sense.

[OneStepAtATime]

I have two bright kids with LDs.  I was told by several not to do BA but after reading more about it I decided to give it a try.  Based on what you have described, it might very well be a good fit for your daughter.  My suggestion, though, is to definitely start with BA 3A and work through it with her.  Make it a FUN thing.  Share time with her on it.  The kids and I do it together and make it into a game, with lots of discussion.  They are learning, having fun, and the math anxiety isn't nearly as high as it can be with other math sources.

 

Honestly, I agree with geodob that working on helping her in any way that you can to get over her anxiety seems paramount at this point.  Anxiety can be crippling and lead to a life-long issue with learning.  

 

When you say math games cause anxiety, we had that here, too, until I really examined what types of games we were playing.  What types of games have you tried?  You might seek out Soror's "relaxed math" thread on the general education board (can't every seem to link it right or I would link it) and try some of the resources over there.  There are many ways to approach math that can be fun without causing stress.  Your child is young.  Finding ways to help her see how fun math can be, and how useful and interesting math can be, in a non-stressful no pressure way, might help her get over at least some of her anxiety.

 

You might consider working with her on a dry erase board instead of doing worksheets and just doing a couple of problems at a time, starting with very basic ones that she definitely knows.  I found that when I brought my kids home from a brick and mortar and they had tremendous math anxiety they did better working problems on the dry erase.  Fewer problems, lots of space between the problems, mistakes were erased not marked wrong, etc.  

 

As for clocks and calendars, I stopped even mentioning those for a while until DD had more confidence in other areas of math.  Then, I reintroduced the topic not through math exercises but through daily need by modeling for her when I look at clocks and calendars and why (we need to go to the doctor tomorrow, better look at the calendar and write down the date and the time, etc.).  Slowly, I began doing other things to incorporate calendars and clocks into our day in a non-stressful way and to start having her do the same.  Now, at 13 she is more comfortable with both and is learning how to use them properly and to be able to answer word problems based on calendars and clocks without panicking or crying.

 

You might also look at starting over with a manipulatives based system, like MUS or Math in Focus with the manipulatives kits so she has something physical to work with and manipulate.  It might help relieve some anxiety.  (I still use MM for some reinforcement, but honestly by itself it has caused stress in our household.  Too cluttered on the page for one thing.)

 

Not sure any of that helped, but I wish you and your family the best and hope you find something that helps. Best wishes.

[Paige]

It's not that "math games" cause anxiety. All games cause anxiety. It doesn't matter if it's Sum Swamp, Scrabble, Memory, or Candyland. She's gotten better through playing cooperative games like Forbidden Island and also with team games on the wii or xbox, but she still usually prefers to watch. She used to cry and refuse to participate if I had a game for us to play and now she will cooperate and play and won't run off if she doesn't win. I am definitely seeing positive progress.

 

We frequently do MM on the dry erase board w/ manipulatives and orally. It helped tremendously when we switched to doing that for much of it, but she doesn't like it. She wants to do it on paper w/no manipulatives because somehow she thinks it would be better and that doing it orally or on the board means she's not doing it right.

[Pen]

I think to know if BA would work for her you would have to try it, as her mom you probably have a better idea of if it will play to her strengths or be too hard and cause more anxiety. I agree that if you try it you should start with the lowest level book... and don't assume that will be easy, even if 3 digit multiplication is, it may still be that BA will be very hard... or it may be that the comics and other aspects will make it wonderful for her, and finally solve the troubles.  

 

MM is not a program that I would probably choose for a spine for what you describe.  I tend to agree with above post that MUS, with its manipulatives and DVD explanations also, might fit better. or Math in Focus, with its explanations about what basically is happening when you use the math word/symbols like add, subtract, etc, she seems  thrown by.  What about Kitchen Table Math (all I know is the title, we were past that point when I first heard of it), or what about one of the math programs where you keep a pretend business? 

 

You wrote: " I am wary of giving her a procedural math because I think she would do well without ever understanding."

 

But maybe that is something she needs right now. Something she can do well in and get past some of her anxiety. She could come back to working on understanding at a later stage perhaps.

 

Mathematical Reasoning and/or Math Detective from Critical Thinking co. might be more user friendly for her.

 

And if she is unclear on basics like add, subtract, etc., you may need to go back to the start and work forward, even though she is way ahead in some aspects.  If she can do the processes, and know what to do in a real life situation, but not understand the words, that seems like a separate issue though and maybe is somehow language related. Can she do word problems orally?

[Pen]

A totally different approach might be something like to go very very very slowly through something like Aufmann's (I am not sure how many f's and n's) Basic College Math, which would give a review starting with adding (and maybe even counting, I cannot recall), and would say "college" on the cover so she would not feel bad that she is going back to review basics... if she took 2 to 3 years on it, but was able to do it, she would have all basic math before pre-algebra done.

 

I don't know. The emotional aspect seems to be the hardest thing here, if you can get that dealt with there is probably some math approach that will work for her.