s/o NME American Indian subtest book a little shocking

[acurtis75]

DD thought the American Indian mythology subtest might be fun so I got the recommended book from the library. It was in the adult section which fortunately means dd checked with me before starting to read. The test recommends specific stories to read and after pre-reading the first one I'm assuming those are all fine. I will be just copying the pages dd needs to study and giving those to her since the first recommended story comes right after a story called "Teaching the mud heads how to copulate" which is even more shocking and inappropriate than it sounds. Dh and I were both like  :huh: . I made him read it because I was a bit shocked.

 

 

[EndOfOrdinary]

I hear you!  While we drove around to errands my son suggested we listen to audio books.  He got very excited when I found the Great Courses Classical Mythology at the library.  The first few lectures/tracks were great!  However, as it went on it started to get a bit more sketchy.  I didn't quite remember the extent of incest which existed in Greek Mythology, or exactly how much sexualized content there was.  Needless to say, there was quite a bit of fast forwarding and a few discussions I wasn't planning to have in 4th grade!

[Ravin]

It's not any more shocking than unsanitized Greek or Norse myths or Grimms' fairy tales. And I'd probably let my daughter read it and discuss it with her rather than censor it.

[acurtis75]

It's not any more shocking than unsanitized Greek or Norse myths or Grimms' fairy tales. And I'd probably let my daughter read it and discuss it with her rather than censor it.

My daughter has read a lot of various greek & Norse myths and we've discussed them. She is only 8 and we don't necessarily need to have conversations about what holes specific body parts need to be stuck in which is part of what was covered in that particular myth. I won't be more specific because I can't without potentially showing up in a purposeful search for x rated material.

 

I know not everyone agrees but in my opinion it is my responsibility to censor what my daughter is exposed to and introduce things at appropriate times. I feel it is one of the great challenges of having accelerated children. Just because she can read and understand everything doesn't mean she should at this point.

[Ravin]

I get the idea. But my opinion doesn't change. An age appropriate discussion of it is possible. I didn't see JAWM in your thread title. I was an accelerated reader and my parents didn't censor. They also didn't always monitor and discuss, something I think is very important.

 

A story about another culture's explanation or understanding of where babies come from our how people made the connection between copulation and reproduction can be age appropriate for an 8yo, unless maybe it's illustrated.

 

Since it's not on the assigned reading I wouldn't go out of my way to have a child read it, but it wouldn't stop me from putting the book in her hands, either.

[acurtis75]

I get the idea. But my opinion doesn't change. An age appropriate discussion of it is possible. I didn't see JAWM in your thread title. I was an accelerated reader and my parents didn't censor. They also didn't always monitor and discuss, something I think is very important.

 

A story about another culture's explanation or understanding of where babies come from our how people made the connection between copulation and reproduction can be age appropriate for an 8yo, unless maybe it's illustrated.

 

Since it's not on the assigned reading I wouldn't go out of my way to have a child read it, but it wouldn't stop me from putting the book in her hands, either.

We've discussed where babies come from. It wasn't at all about where babies come from and the description of where body parts were inserted had nothing to do with reproduction and was quite explicit and included multiple options. Trying to avoid being too descriptive but I can't think of any reason to discuss in detail what copulation options are possible with an 8 year old.

[SKL]

Copulation doesn't scare me.  It's the horrible attitude obviously implied by "mudheads" etc.

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ETA:  those who have read further inform me that "mudheads" is not what I thought it meant, so ignore me, but I will just leave my post up anyway since it's been quoted.

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Maybe I'm a little more sensitive because my kids are biologically Mayan.  Just saying "that's ignorant/mean but people were sometimes ignorant and mean in those days" doesn't cut it.  What they hear at a young age is "the world found racism (and crudity at NAs' expense) acceptable, and there must be some legitimate reason for whole populations accepting it."

[acurtis75]

Copulation doesn't scare me. It's the horrible attitude obviously implied by "mudheads" etc.

 

Maybe I'm a little more sensitive because my kids are biologically Mayan. Just saying "that's ignorant/mean but people were sometimes ignorant and mean in those days" doesn't cut it. What they hear at a young age is "the world found racism (and crudity at NAs' expense) acceptable, and there must be some legitimate reason for whole populations accepting it."

It was an issue for me also. We've had to discuss what words are and are not appropriate after many books. Edited to add that my daughters are of mixed race and dd8 has rather dark skin so we have lots of conversations about racism.

[Dmmetler]

I'm glad you posted-I'm trying to figure out what test areas to cover with my group next year, and I know a good number of my group parents hand their kids the books and let them do the projects/presentations on their own. We may want to let parents choose to do the AI subtest prep on their own if their kids pick that area, rather than requiring that all the kids have the book if some of the other content is that questionable!

[Ravin]

Copulation doesn't scare me. It's the horrible attitude obviously implied by "mudheads" etc.

 

Maybe I'm a little more sensitive because my kids are biologically Mayan. Just saying "that's ignorant/mean but people were sometimes ignorant and mean in those days" doesn't cut it. What they hear at a young age is "the world found racism (and crudity at NAs' expense) acceptable, and there must be some legitimate reason for whole populations accepting it."

Based on the OP's description, 'mudheads' is a reference in a myth to some mythical group, probably translated from the native language of the tribe in which the myth originates. I fail to follow how this is pejorative to the native people telling the story.

[KarenNC]

Copulation doesn't scare me.  It's the horrible attitude obviously implied by "mudheads" etc.

 

Maybe I'm a little more sensitive because my kids are biologically Mayan.  Just saying "that's ignorant/mean but people were sometimes ignorant and mean in those days" doesn't cut it.  What they hear at a young age is "the world found racism (and crudity at NAs' expense) acceptable, and there must be some legitimate reason for whole populations accepting it."

 

I think you are completely misunderstanding the term "mudhead" and the purpose of this myth. Myth has to be taken within its cultural context. Failing to do so leads to such misunderstanding (like an assumption that Christians obviously engage in actual physical ritual cannibalism because of the language used in the Eucharist--which assumption has been made about Christian missionaries in some societies). In Zuni culture, Mudheads are sacred clowns and perform a vital role in maintaining balance in ritual and life.

 

A preface to this story (and the story http://www.darkwell.com/lor272.htm ): 

 

http://peabody2.ad.fas.harvard.edu/katsina/58605.html

 

And from the Encyclopaedia Brittanica:

Sacred clown:  

 

 

 

A much longer paper on the role of the koyemshi in Pueblo culture https://scholarworks.iu.edu/dspace/bitstream/handle/2022/1940/18%282%29%20113-135.pdf?sequence=1  (which I found fascinating).

 

Now, given all that, I agree that this is not a myth I would have shared with my 8 year old. It's for the same reason that I didn't share the stories of Abram and Sarai wandering the Middle East in the Hebrew Scriptures until this year (age 13) when we studied Biblical literacy, and I waited until this year to watch the Vandiver lectures with her. In our culture, these are not considered appropriate topics for children in pretty much any context. In others, the mores are different.

[SKL]

OK - I stand corrected on the mudheads comment.  I was obviously uninformed.

[acurtis75]

I'm glad you posted-I'm trying to figure out what test areas to cover with my group next year, and I know a good number of my group parents hand their kids the books and let them do the projects/presentations on their own. We may want to let parents choose to do the AI subtest prep on their own if their kids pick that area, rather than requiring that all the kids have the book if some of the other content is that questionable!

 

I didn't read through everything else but based on that one story I wouldn't hand the book to a young child. If they want to do that particular subtest I would provide only the pages with the stories needed for the test. That's assuming the stories for the test are all okay. I haven't finished reading them yet.

[acurtis75]

Thanks for the history lesson Karen. I've actually been to the Zuni reservation and seen some of the obscene figures that represent the clowns but didn't remember the term mudhead or make the connection from the story to the zuni clowns. My aunt has a native american jewelry store and used to sell art as well so she has a lot of the figurines which she refers to as kochina (sp) dolls. Some of them would be considered obscene by most in our culture. 

 

 

[Ravin]

Thanks for the history lesson Karen. I've actually been to the Zuni reservation and seen some of the obscene figures that represent the clowns but didn't remember the term mudhead or make the connection from the story to the zuni clowns. My aunt has a native american jewelry store and used to sell art as well so she has a lot of the figurines which she refers to as kochina (sp) dolls. Some of them would be considered obscene by most in our culture. 

The clown figures are not, by defintion, obscene:

 

 

 

OBSCENITY

A category of speech unprotected by the First Amendment.

A comprehensive, legal definition of obscenity has been difficult to establish. Yet key components of the current obscenity test stem from a District Court case tried in 1933. United States v. One Book Called “Ulysses†5 F. Supp. 182 (S.D.N.Y 1933), aff'd United States v. One Book Entitled Ulysses by James Joyce, 72 F2d 705 (2nd Cir. 1934) determined that a work investigated for obscenity must be considered in its entirety and not merely judged on its parts.

Currently, obscenity is evaluated by federal and state courts alike using a tripartite standard established by Miller v. California 413 U.S. 15 (1973). The Miller test for obscenity includes the following criteria: (1) whether ‘the average person, applying contemporary community standards’ would find that the work, ‘taken as a whole,’ appeals to ‘prurient interest’ (2) whether the work depicts or describes, in a patently offensive way, sexual conduct specifically defined by the applicable state law, and (3) whether the work, ‘taken as a whole,’ lacks serious literary, artistic, political, or scientific value.

 

The figures have significant religious, artistic, and perhaps political value to the Zunis, and therefore are not obscene.

[ThoughtfulMama]

Kudos to you for being on top of things and checking out the reading! I think homeschooling forums are likely to represent some extremes of parenting styles, but I will admit that I'm surprised that anybody thinks it's ok for a young child to be reading something so graphic. You would think that somebody putting together recommended reading would be a little more aware.

[mamaraby]

Kudos to you for being on top of things and checking out the reading! I think homeschooling forums are likely to represent some extremes of parenting styles, but I will admit that I'm surprised that anybody thinks it's ok for a young child to be reading something so graphic. You would think that somebody putting together recommended reading would be a little more aware.

Different families, different points of view. We've gone around and around and around on the book censoring thing with quite a few folks making similar judgements about those of us who do not censor what our children read and would not have a problem with our children reading/discussing what others feel is "so graphic."

 

I think what's most important here is not that other families choose differently, but rather that if these sorts of things could potentially be an issue for your family, then it's always best to pre-read. Homeschoolers are not a monolithic entity so it should not, imo, be surprising when something like this occurs.

[KarenNC]

Kudos to you for being on top of things and checking out the reading! I think homeschooling forums are likely to represent some extremes of parenting styles, but I will admit that I'm surprised that anybody thinks it's ok for a young child to be reading something so graphic. You would think that somebody putting together recommended reading would be a little more aware.

 

To be fair, the NME *doesn't* recommend reading this particular story. It recommends specific other stories from a book which also contains this story. I do admit to being a bit surprised they didn't look for a different resource (we have a copy that was my husband's text for a college class years ago), since they do use much more sanitized children's versions for basic Greek, Roman, and Norse (d'Aulaire's rather than, say, Ovid).  The test is designed by teachers of Latin and Greek for grades 3-12, and while the younger students *may* take any of the other subtests, it's not until 6th grade that they are required to take one of the literary subtests. They choose among a section of the Iliad, a section of the Odyssey, a section of the Aeneid, selected Native American tales, selected African tales, or selected portions of Norse mythology. http://www.etclassics.org/pages/the-national-mythology-exam  Honestly, since the selections for the Iliad, Odyssey and Aenied are also from translations used in colleges, you may want to pre-read any of those as well. They can contain some extremely graphic violence and other areas that could be concerning for younger children. The Arnott "Tales from Africa" is aimed at children, like the d'Aulaire's, and would be a safer resource.

 

Also to be fair, there are numerous stories in the Jewish and Christian scriptures (to take our dominant religious mythos in America) that would be seen as "obscene" and inappropriate for children by the standards of our culture if taken out of the context of their religious framework. Those stories are not usually the ones included in a children's book of Bible stories, but I wouldn't throw out something that suggested we read the story of Noah and the ark from a full Bible just because it's in the same book with the story of Lot and his daughters. :001_smile:

 

I ran up against something similar (being suprised by what is acceptable for children in another culture) when we were in the mall in Japantown in San Francisco when my daughter was 7. Tanuki are common figures in Japanese art and folklore, based on an actual animal, but in the folklore having a hugely enlarged scrotum, which is a symbol of good financial fortune. They are comic trickster figures, not typically sexualized that I know of. When we turned a corner in the mall, suddenly there were several adult human-sized statues of tanuki in the middle, with their "attributes" at eye level for my daughter. :eek:  I diverted her attention quickly to a shop window, because it wasn't something I was willing to explain at the moment and she didn't have the cultural referents for. These showed up in a children's anime (Pompoko) as well that I had rented once, which was a bit of a shocker! :001_smile: This difference in cultural mores is the reason we've been pretty vigilant in previewing her selection of manga through the years.

[acurtis75]

Karen is correct. NME didn't recommend the story we're discussing. It just happened to be right before the one they did recommend so I read it as a sampling for what is in the rest of the book before letting dd read it. I don't expect NME to make sure stories are appropriate based on my standards and I have no problem previewing materials. I see that as a parenting responsibility. We'll probably still do the subtest because dd enjoys the other stories.

 

I understand the clown figures aren't considered obscene in the Zuni culture. I've spent quite a bit of time on the Zuni reservation. I said that the figures would be considered obscene by most in our culture. Maybe I should have said some in our culture but I don't believe that is what this thread is really about. 

 

Since there are other parents of accelerated learners/readers who I knew were taking the exam and probably doing subtests even though they are below 6th grade (like dmmetler) I thought I would share the content I found to be inappropriate to give them a heads up to preview it before they handed it over to their children. I didn't assume everyone would find it inappropriate nor did I imply that no one should let their child read it. Part of the benefit of homeschooling is the ability to decide what should and shouldn't be included in our children's education. I'm not sure why a person who doesn't believe in censorship would even be interested in this thread. 

[Dmmetler]

That's one reason why I focus on the Norse as the "literary" subtest for my group-because I'm pretty confident D'Aulaires is appopriate for the younger kids in the group, but it still supports the middle schoolers who have to take at least one subtest. It sounds like we could probably do the African ones as well-that might be a good choice for next year, since I have a lot of the same kids coming back for multiple years.

 

 

Last year, my DD really wanted to take the subtests for the Iliad and the Odyssey, and ended up getting Bronze instead of Gold because the versions she read weren't the specific ones the test used.

[acurtis75]

That's one reason why I focus on the Norse as the "literary" subtest for my group-because I'm pretty confident D'Aulaires is appopriate for the younger kids in the group, but it still supports the middle schoolers who have to take at least one subtest. It sounds like we could probably do the African ones as well-that might be a good choice for next year, since I have a lot of the same kids coming back for multiple years.

 

 

Last year, my DD really wanted to take the subtests for the Iliad and the Odyssey, and ended up getting Bronze instead of Gold because the versions she read weren't the specific ones the test used.

 

 

I'm glad you told me that about the Iliad and Odyssey. We'll probably skip that one for now too since she wouldn't be reading the texts aimed at older kids.

 

I'll have to pull out materials back out and finalize the plan for what she's going to do.