Interesting discipline stats from our public high school

[creekland]

Just food for thought - or conversation...

 

I was checking through my (high) school e-mail today and came across this one from guidance:

 

Hello,

 

After some questions from faculty, I decided to look more in depth into our discipline statistics from last school year.

 

We had 1201 discipline referrals last school year.

 

We had 318 or 25.9% of students referred for discipline.

 

137 of the 318 students were one-time offenders and generally got a referral for minor offenses ie late to school, missed homework, etc.

 

883 or 74.1% of students received no discipline referrals.

 

80 students or 6.5% of the entire student population made up 66% of the discipline referrals. These were students with five or more referrals last school year. We had several students with over 20 referrals. In fact, the 5 students with the most referrals made up over 10% of all referrals.

 

I've often thought that school would be a much better place all around if only a few students either changed their ways or weren't there.

 

I wonder what the solution is... It's a public school.  Kicking the kids out (beyond out of school suspension which these kids generally love) is not an option.  Even when they get in trouble legally, they just end up coming with an anklet on to track their whereabouts before/after school.

 

My solution would be to send them to the work force somewhere.  Many would prefer being there too.  NCLB makes that not an option either.

 

My ideal world would have them going into an exchange program in a very third world country with no money for a month or so... with the hopes that if they survived, when they returned, they might be a little bit thankful for the opportunities they have here.

 

Your solution?

[regentrude]

I wonder what the solution is... It's a public school.  Kicking the kids out (beyond out of school suspension which these kids generally love) is not an option.  Even when they get in trouble legally, they just end up coming with an anklet on to track their whereabouts before/after school.

 

My solution would be to send them to the work force somewhere.  Many would prefer being there too.  NCLB makes that not an option either.

Your solution?

 

My solution is the one used successfully in my home country:

Let those kids who are not planning to go to college graduate after 10th grade with a valid high school diploma - they would NOT be dropouts - and have them continue their education in vocational training or apprenticeship. (Back home, we have by law a mandatory education until age 18, but this does not mean mandatory school.)

Let only students who are aiming to go to college continue at the high school for 11th and 12th grade.

 

This way, kids not interested in "more school" are not forced to sit there for two more years because they would otherwise be dropouts - they could go and get a more practical education that would help them with their plans for their future.

 

[Elisabet1]

What you posted says they are giving referrals for kids who are tardy. My daughter was late on day when she showed up and band was having a field trip, so their buses were blocking the parking lot. She was redirected to park across the street and walk back. By the time she got in the building, she said she was already in the building, dashing to class when the bell went off. She got a tardy, which meant detention. I think that is crazy. That "crime" is punished the same way as some who, for example, gets in to a fist fight in class. This makes stats like that worthless.

[swimmermom3]

My solution is the one used successfully in my home country:

Let those kids who are not planning to go to college graduate after 10th grade with a valid high school diploma - they would NOT be dropouts - and have them continue their education in vocational training or apprenticeship. (Back home, we have by law a mandatory education until age 18, but this does not mean mandatory school.)

Let only students who are aiming to go to college continue at the high school for 11th and 12th grade.

 

This way, kids not interested in "more school" are not forced to sit there for two more years because they would otherwise be dropouts - they could go and get a more practical education that would help them with their plans for their future.

 

For me, this plan is preferable to throwing the non-compliant  students to the wolves. The older I get, the more it seems to me that there really are very few "rotten" kids and a whole lot more bad home or school situations. For example, one of our guidance students was often late for her first period class and had several referrals. She is the oldest of two daughters of a single mother that works graveyard shift. Sometimes the shift lets out late and the oldest daughter stays with her little sister until mom gets home. This family is really doing the best they can. Mother and oldest daughter agreed on the graveyard shift arrangement for the oldest's senior year. This allowed mom to be home with youngest in the afternoon and to give the oldest a chance to participate in extracurricular activities for the first time ever.

 

I am not going to send a 16yo kid who is acting out in class to a third world country to see if he can survive, when he is struggling to survive at home with the new stepdad that is beating the crap out of him. Making non-compliant kids disappear isn't a productive answer.

 

[Elisabet1]

In fact, try this to simulate how easy it is to get a detention. Set 8am as the time they have to be in their chair. Then set 3 times during the day where they can use the bathroom. The other option is lunch, but that means they have to forfeit lunch. Since they don't have big crowded hallways and long lines at the restrooms, give them 2 minutes. They cannot leave their seats until the bell rings. Then, the timer is on. In 120 seconds, if they are not sitting in their seats, they get detention. Then, one day, take their chairs and hide them (to simulate showing up and the parking lot is blocked off). Give them no warning it is coming. So when they go to sit down at 8am, they cannot sit. They have to search your home for the seat before they can sit. Give them detention for not finding the seat and being seated in time. Then tell them they should have planned ahead for things like this, even though nothing like this has happened in the years they have been coming. Later, if one of them sneaks out in the middle of the night or has some much bigger offense, give them the same exact punishment they got when they took too long to potty or couldn't find their chair in time. 

 

THEN it will be like the public school.

[Elisabet1]

My solution is the one used successfully in my home country:

Let those kids who are not planning to go to college graduate after 10th grade with a valid high school diploma - they would NOT be dropouts - and have them continue their education in vocational training or apprenticeship. (Back home, we have by law a mandatory education until age 18, but this does not mean mandatory school.)

Let only students who are aiming to go to college continue at the high school for 11th and 12th grade.

 

This way, kids not interested in "more school" are not forced to sit there for two more years because they would otherwise be dropouts - they could go and get a more practical education that would help them with their plans for their future.

I agree with this. I keep hearing from parents whose kids are not college bound, suffering through classes like British Lit and pre-cal, because it is required to graduate. It would be better if they could get some real job training.

[Mom22ns]

This makes stats like that worthless.

 

Not at all. They said that:

 

137 of the 318 students were one-time offenders and generally got a referral for minor offenses ie late to school, missed homework, etc.

 

It is the 6.5 percent of the student population that makes up 66% of the referrals that are the real issue.

 

I agree with Regentrude's and many other countries concept of different tracks for different kids. Tracking used to be commonplace in American schools in younger grades. It was never carried through to the high school level to the degree that other countries do though i.e. offering different diplomas and different routes to those diplomas based on children's abilities and interests.

 

Currently tracking is considered unacceptable because it is discriminatory. It doesn't offer the same opportunities to everyone. There is so much concern about giving the same opportunities, it isn't allowing kids to find the RIGHT opportunities. Not all kids have the same abilities or the same interests, so trying to make the educational experience the same for everyone of course offers great frustration to those at the ends of the spectrum. High kids and low kids, kids with interests that don't require a lot of classroom education, are all equally frustrated. If you use a system like that Regentrude describes, many of these kids would leave the schools sooner while still preparing for the workforce and those who were left would have greater opportunities to excel without the distraction of those who are miserable in the classroom and are therefor try to make everyone else equally miserable.

 

The problem I see with tracking is that kids change as they grow up and it can be very hard to change tracks. Regentrude, can you speak to that?

 

I have a 2e kid who might well have gotten stuck in a non-college prep track in spite of his extremely high IQ. He learns and works differently. That is why we homeschool. However, he is starting to take college classes and I think he will graduate from college one day. It may well take him more than four years even with dual enrollment and some CLEP credits, but he want to continue his education and should have the opportunity.

[regentrude]

The problem I see with tracking is that kids change as they grow up and it can be very hard to change tracks. Regentrude, can you speak to that?

 

In Germany, tracking begins in 5th grade into a college prep track that goes to 12th grade (the diploma serves as entry certificate to university) and a non-college prep track that graduates after 10th grade.  There are some opportunities to change track in between, but it is rather rare.

It is much easier is for a late bloomer or student who changed his mind to complete the 10 grade school and add a three year program that gets him to graduate with the college prep diploma - so only one year is lost.

It is also possible to sit the college prep high school final exams as an independent student without any affiliation to any school, or to complete a course of study that leads to this diploma as an adult via night school.

[swimmermom3]

 

Not at all. They said that:

 

137 of the 318 students were one-time offenders and generally got a referral for minor offenses ie late to school, missed homework, etc.

 

It is the 6.5 percent of the student population that makes up 66% of the referrals that are the real issue.

 

I agree with Regentrude's and many other countries concept of different tracks for different kids. Tracking used to be commonplace in American schools in younger grades. It was never carried through to the high school level to the degree that other countries do though i.e. offering different diplomas and different routes to those diplomas based on children's abilities and interests.

 

Currently tracking is considered unacceptable because it is discriminatory. It doesn't offer the same opportunities to everyone. There is so much concern about giving the same opportunities, it isn't allowing kids to find the RIGHT opportunities. Not all kids have the same abilities or the same interests, so trying to make the educational experience the same for everyone of course offers great frustration to those at the ends of the spectrum. High kids and low kids, kids with interests that don't require a lot of classroom education, are all equally frustrated. If you use a system like that Regentrude describes, many of these kids would leave the schools sooner while still preparing for the workforce and those who were left would have greater opportunities to excel without the distraction of those who are miserable in the classroom and are therefor try to make everyone else equally miserable.

 

The problem I see with tracking is that kids change as they grow up and it can be very hard to change tracks. Regentrude, can you speak to that?

 

I have a 2e kid who might well have gotten stuck in a non-college prep track in spite of his extremely high IQ. He learns and works differently. That is why we homeschool. However, he is starting to take college classes and I think he will graduate from college one day. It may well take him more than four years even with dual enrollment and some CLEP credits, but he want to continue his education and should have the opportunity.

 

 

The part in bold is a very good point. Both of my older kids couldn't wait to be done with high school starting about half way through their junior years. One is almost done with cosmetology school and the other will be starting an automotive repair program this winter. Neither of them is happy with sitting all day and yet both enjoy learning. I am not sure how I feel about cutting two years off of high school education, especially if it is the only formal education they ever get. The older two took AP courses event though they knew they weren't testing and they weren't going to college. I can see both of them going back to school later and that is hard enough, but if you were missing two years of high school, it seems like it would be a very daunting task. Kids do grow and mature.

 

 

[La Texican]

They have a test called Making Annual Progress (MAP) that can be given up to four times a year. If they wanted to track kids by ability rather than tracking whole schools they could use that one.

[La Texican]

I don't know, but it would let them make separate tracks without letting kids get lost, stuck in one track. I've read that the testing they use now doesn't affect the kids, only the teachers, schools, and money involved.

[Elisabet1]

The other part I noticed is that kids get discipline referrals for unfinished homework? Think of how often your own children would get a referral. Even at home, I am about to go fetch a child who had not finished his writing today. At school, they do not have a parent doing this. They would just get a discipline referral. I am shocked the numbers are not higher.

[creekland]

My solution is the one used successfully in my home country:

Let those kids who are not planning to go to college graduate after 10th grade with a valid high school diploma - they would NOT be dropouts - and have them continue their education in vocational training or apprenticeship. (Back home, we have by law a mandatory education until age 18, but this does not mean mandatory school.)

Let only students who are aiming to go to college continue at the high school for 11th and 12th grade.

 

This way, kids not interested in "more school" are not forced to sit there for two more years because they would otherwise be dropouts - they could go and get a more practical education that would help them with their plans for their future.

Yes, I do love this solution and have often advocated for it here.  I'm not exactly sure why I forgot it this time... perhaps I can blame it on my medical condition?  ;)

 

What you posted says they are giving referrals for kids who are tardy. My daughter was late on day when she showed up and band was having a field trip, so their buses were blocking the parking lot. She was redirected to park across the street and walk back. By the time she got in the building, she said she was already in the building, dashing to class when the bell went off. She got a tardy, which meant detention. I think that is crazy. That "crime" is punished the same way as some who, for example, gets in to a fist fight in class. This makes stats like that worthless.

It takes 3 lates to = 1 detention here.  Your daughter also would not have gotten a "late" had she checked in with anyone (teacher, admin) for the redirection.  A fist fight is an automatic out of school suspension with involvement of law enforcement.  I don't know about public schools in your area, but ours is evidently different.

 

For me, this plan is preferable to throwing the non-compliant  students to the wolves. The older I get, the more it seems to me that there really are very few "rotten" kids and a whole lot more bad home or school situations. For example, one of our guidance students was often late for her first period class and had several referrals. She is the oldest of two daughters of a single mother that works graveyard shift. Sometimes the shift lets out late and the oldest daughter stays with her little sister until mom gets home. This family is really doing the best they can. Mother and oldest daughter agreed on the graveyard shift arrangement for the oldest's senior year. This allowed mom to be home with youngest in the afternoon and to give the oldest a chance to participate in extracurricular activities for the first time ever.

 

I am not going to send a 16yo kid who is acting out in class to a third world country to see if he can survive, when he is struggling to survive at home with the new stepdad that is beating the crap out of him. Making non-compliant kids disappear isn't a productive answer.

 

And guidance makes teachers (including me) aware of situations like these and they don't get into trouble either. Our school works with them. The kids with the oodles of behavior referrals are not in this situation.  Often the parents (or grandparents) are also trying to figure out how to solve the problem.  Many times drugs are involved.

 

The solution here is to sit down with guidance, parents, and principal.  They come up with a better placement. That might be the work-study program, it may be vo-tech, it may be night high school, it may be homebound instruction, it may be alternative school, it may be early college DE or it might be something the judge orders. It could also be a few section changes -- maybe out of reg ed and into honors/ap, maybe out of reg ed and into multisensory, maybe independent study. OSS & homebound is usually for those who are working out the drug/alcohol issues and in treatment.  School to work is big here.

 

Additionally, no one is forced into unrequired classes. Seniors have 2.5 required classes. They can leave if they are in the work-study or vo-tech program. 

 

Some high schools around here do not schedule seniors for 1st or 9th period classes...if they are in honor society or work they can enter late or leave early if they have their own transportation.

 

MIssing hw is not tracked as a discipline referral here.  Late - they get three lates and then its automatically an afterschool detention.

Three missing HWs became a discipline referral when our school ended up on the "caution" list for not producing the results they needed educationally.  The school has started to get serious about kids completing HW in order to try to improve.  It's not actually a bad thing.  Our county does not have a Vo-tech, but our school offers some decent shop classes.  There are also options to DE with a Tech Prep group for kids who like things like cooking, nursing, or law enforcement.  It's not generally those kids getting into trouble.

 

We have some alternative programs here.  One in particular allows student to basically sit in a room (in another location) and complete all of their work on computers.  There are some other options, but I'm not sure how they all work.

 

Discipline is a very huge problem here.  The suspension rate at the high school is about 25% (state average is 5%).  A student suspended multiple times is only counted as 1 suspension overall when they compile that stat.

We do have some alternative programs here too.  It can take a bit to get a kid assigned to one - we need a LOT of documentation.

 

In general, it's been interesting reading the responses.

[creekland]

Yeah I wonder if that is anytime they don't finish or a student with a pattern of not turning in homework. 

3 missed HW assigns from the same teacher = 1 referral IF the teacher is not ok with the student's excuse.  Most teachers are very reasonable with legitimate excuses.  The referrals tend to hit kids who simply don't care to do it.  Most, after one detention, change their mind.

 

Having kids do their HW in a timely manner is something I support. It's good college training or work ethic training.

 

One complaint I often hear from those at college about homeschooled kids is that they don't know how to handle deadlines...

[creekland]

Yeah, I realized the e-mail wasn't specific enough with some of those details.  Those of us who work there know what happens, but for anyone reading just the e-mail, it does seem a bit harsh.  It's an interesting example of how one needs to think about the reader rather than just assuming all know the "behind the scenes" details.

 

In general, I think our school is very fair with punishment fitting the offense.  The only exception to that is fighting.  When it comes to fighting both parties get out of school suspension - even if one student was clearly just defending themselves.  The school's take on it is that it takes two to fight and they want to come down harshly to do anything possible to avoid fights.  The defender does get fewer days out and the offender also gets law enforcement to deal with, so there is a difference, but...

 

The detentions for unexcused tardies and homework incompletes are both aimed at preparing students for the work force where they ought to be getting there and completing tasks on time regularly.

 

I think both are important.

[RootAnn]

Ugh, but wouldn't it be awful to be tested 4 times a year (I'm assuming this is a standardized fill in the bubble sort of test)?

[ETA:  Not sure if this is the same MAP testing the other poster referenced. MAP testing here is "Measures of Academic Progress."]

 

MAP testing here is all on the computer. The test 'adapts' to your answers, making the next questions harder or easier depending on what you already got right/wrong. It reminds me of Khan Academy's mastery test, in a way. They MAP test math for sure. I don't know if they have a 'reading' comprehension version or not. 

[Elisabet1]

Yes, I do love this solution and have often advocated for it here.  I'm not exactly sure why I forgot it this time... perhaps I can blame it on my medical condition?  ;)

 

It takes 3 lates to = 1 detention here.  Your daughter also would not have gotten a "late" had she checked in with anyone (teacher, admin) for the redirection.  A fist fight is an automatic out of school suspension with involvement of law enforcement.  I don't know about public schools in your area, but ours is evidently different.

 

Where we live, ONE tardy equals a detention, not three.

[albeto.]

 

My solution would be to send them to the work force somewhere.  Many would prefer being there too.  NCLB makes that not an option either.

 

My ideal world would have them going into an exchange program in a very third world country with no money for a month or so... with the hopes that if they survived, when they returned, they might be a little bit thankful for the opportunities they have here.

 

Your solution?

 

 

The younger a child is, the more adaptable they are to their environment. But kids learn what they need to learn, and kids learn well. They learn to survive in any given environment. If we take time to look at those habits in ourselves we don't much care for, the things we'd like to change, we can probably trace them back to some habit we picked up in childhood to make things easier. You might think of it as a kind of "psuedo survival mode." These habits became problematic when we grew up and moved on and that solution was no longer necessary, but nevertheless that skill was habitualized anyway. When this happens to other kids in schools we want to think they're just being willfully naughty, but when we understand behavior - conditioning, temperament, environmental and neurological factors, etc - we learn students are simply adapt to their environments the best they can. Just like we did as kids. Some of us are fortunate to have relatively safe environments to grow up in. Probably most of us. It's hard to conceive of that not being the case, it's easier to conceive of someone just choosing to be a jerk, but that's not an accurate explanation. My solution would include education for the educators. 

Can you imagine the impact if schools had to publish these statistics, and were judged and graded on them?  Referrals would drop overnight, and classrooms would get a ton worse.

[creekland]

Can you imagine the impact if schools had to publish these statistics, and were judged and graded on them?  Referrals would drop overnight, and classrooms would get a ton worse.

Scary thought...

 

My first impression upon reading them is that  3/4ths of students are never any sort of major problem.  Half of the rest do something once, but learn from it.

 

This is all a good thing for our society.  It's very helpful when citizens learn how to "play" nicely with others both socially and in the workforce.

 

It's a very small percentage that are truly difficult to convey that concept to - and from personal experience - very often drugs or alcohol (or both) are involved.  Poor parenting may or may not be involved.

 

Our school has had a recent newcomer - from the projects of a nearby city - currently in foster care.  I got to meet him (in a class) last week.  Suffice it to say today he came up to me today (sought me out) eager to share that he made the basketball team.  I shared his enthusiasm and told him he's a great addition to our school - and not just for basketball.  I also saw our "at risk" counselor and made sure he knew math tutoring was also an option should the chap want it (for free).  He's on a fence now, but I truly think this kid can hop down on the "good" side.

 

The details might differ based upon the kid (the one above is a real situation, but of course, there are others who could be "him"), but the response is always similar.  Our school does NOT try to punish to make kids robots or similar.  They try to show consequences for behavior in preparation for life.  There is a LOT going on trying to help kids who need it.  People who aren't privy just don't see it.

 

Kids do not always respond well to people who are trying to help them.  Many times alcohol/drugs are easier for them.  Other times they have too much of a wall up for one reason or another (genetic or environmental).  It's these kids I'd like to send a wake up call to.  They have so much going for them here, but they won't use it.  Getting them on a track they like could help some of them.  A month in a true developing nation could help others.  The feeling remains that one wishes they could do something.  Reality says I'll see most of them in the police blotter as soon as they are 18 and names can be revealed.  Now they are just "a juvenile..."  I wish we could change reality via one method or another.