AoPS and DOMA test/Pre-Algebra

[MASHomeschooler]

My daughter is nearing the end of my pre- pre-algebra plan (centered on Math Mammoth 6). So I had her take the DOMA pre-algebra as a baseline for the next step.

 

Her results were:

Integer Operations .................mastery

Fraction Operations ................mastery

Decimal Operations ................mastery

Comparing & Converting ........mastery

Estimating & Rounding. ..........mastery

Evaluating Exponents .............mastery

Ratios and Proportions ...........mastery

Simplifying Expressions ........partial mastery

Coordinate Graphing ..............mastery

Linear Func. & Exte. Pat. .......mastery

Simple Equations ...................mastery

Geometry ................................mastery

Interpreting Data .....................mastery

Simple Probability...................mastery

 

With a few sub-sections also not mastered within the "mastered" topics, there are a total of 9 out of over 100 sub-sections (such as "Simplifying [expressions] with variables and exponents") that she did not pass.

 

My question is, has anyone used DOMA testing and AoPS? Once we cover the 9 sub-sections, is that an indication that she is likely ready for AoPS Algebra? I think I have read on the boards previously that some say pre-algebra is not necessary for a student who really understands everything taught to that point - that it is basically a solidification of those skills before heading into algebra. What do you think? She is 8, so I don't want to rush needlessly, but if she really is ready for it, I think she would find it more interesting. Also, I might add that I am still not sure what I want to do for pre-algebra, so if we are skipping it, that would be easier for me. :D

[melmichigan]

I would not skip AoPS Prealgebra  with a child that age.  It will make the transition to Algebra I much easier.  If you think the skills are there you could just use the book at whatever pace is comfortable.  The online class is two semesters.  

 

If you do choose to skip it I would suggest your child complete the alcumus Prealgebra sections, set up to follow the book, before starting Algebra I.  The alcumus is the homework system for the online class.

[geniusmom]

My son did not like the AoPS pre-algebra.  I know lots of people love it, but he found it annoying.  He switched to EPGY and finished pre-algebra with them.  I would check out the format and see if it fits her personality.  There are a number of algebra readiness exams out there.  If she is ready, then by all means don't worry about her age.

 

[Dmmetler]

There's a lot in AOPS Pre-algebra. My DD8 is doing it after a different Pre-algebra course, and the presentation and problems are just so much more challenging and different that even though she has the skills for the most part, it's stretching her, and she's thriving. I really think with a talented 8 yr old, it's worth trying as an extension.

[wapiti]

My advice, for someone looking ahead to try AoPS Intro to Algebra, is to NOT skip some sort of prealgebra (that's not to say that it needs to go by that title; for example, there is at least a little overlap between the original version of MM6 and topics that are commonly contained in a "prealgebra" text).  In particular, I would want to spend some time on exponents and square roots/working with radicals, which are covered heavily in AoPS Prealgebra but more briefly in ch 1 of Intro to Algebra.  Likewise, it may be helpful to spend time solving single-variable equations.  Operations with negative numbers are an absolute must.

 

Note that there is a pre-test for Intro to Algebra.

 

Where there is a little overlap of topics between MM6 and AoPS Prealgebra, for the most part I preferred to do the topic in AoPS, which naturally goes deeper but sometimes comes from another perspective also.  In particular, I skipped MM6 chapters on data/probability and on geometry.  I love the AoPS Prealgebra geometry chapters.

[Jill]

My ds did EPGY's pre-algebra with a running 85% which is ok by them but I could tell there were things that weren't sticking. So I tried the AoPS Pre-Algebra (not AoPS Intro to Algebra)  but I ultimately ran into the issues that came up in this thread: 

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/473914-ok-so-what-is-going-on-hereaops-pre-a-vs-elementary-algebra/

(edited to add link I apparently forgot...)

[MASHomeschooler]

Lots of great points; thanks, everyone. Yeah, the (extremely) mixed reviews of AoPS's Pre-Algebra is the reason I still haven't decided what to for pre-algebra. I actually bought it, but haven't had a chance to go through it; I am planning to do so over our upcoming quarter break. So that might help me decide, too. Also, I had forgotten about AoPS's placement tests but will definitely use them; thanks, wapititi.

 

But I think I will tentatively plan to stick with my original plan, of at least trying AoPS Pre-Algebra. I was just so surprised to see that she scored so close to mastery before we even started. I guess I shouldn't have been, given what I mentioned previously about hearing that pre-algebra is just solidifying everything covered to date; plus, when she was in school she skipped 2nd and 4th grade math by testing out at the beginning of the year. Knowing what I've read about AoPS, though, I figured I should ask those who have used it, and I'm glad I did. I am definitely staying flexible, though, and I do like melmichigan's suggestion of at least doing Alcumus, so I might go by section and have her do some fully and some with just Alcumus.

 

So, new question: If you skipped sections of or completely left AoPS (or considered, or would consider, doing so), what is your criteria for doing so? I am wanting to use AoPS for the challenge of it, as I think many people are. She has had very little challenge to date, and is uncomfortable with it. So if she struggles with AoPS, that is what I want. But how do you differentiate between "adjusting to being challenged" and "being unnecessarily frustrated by overly complicated material" (the latter being my understanding of why many people skip or leave AoPS Pre-Algebra)?

[Arcadia]

 But how do you differentiate between "adjusting to being challenged" and "being unnecessarily frustrated by overly complicated material" (the latter being my understanding of why many people skip or leave AoPS Pre-Algebra)?

I watch my kids facial expressions and body posture for all subjects.  My boys tend to be "expressive" though.

 

ETA:

I guess my kids are overly expressive :lol:

[MASHomeschooler]

She is definitely expressive, but "I got 1 wrong" or "I don't immediately get it" can look very similar to "This is so impossibly hard and I can't believe you are torturing me with impossible tasks and I am so hopeless". :D

[boscopup]

Knowing prealgebra and going through AoPS Prealgebra are two totally different things. :lol:

 

Actually, I think having some mastery of prealgebra topics before starting AoPS Prealgebra is a good idea for a young child. My 9 year old is using it this year, and what is working best for us is to use Dolciani to practice basics before we go indepth in AoPS. For example, we are in AoPS Chapter 2 - Exponents. I had him do all the odd problems in the sections in Dolciani that dealt with exponents. That was pure DRILL, but he got very comfortable working with exponents. Then we picked AoPS back up, and he had a much easier time and was able to focus on the *problem solving* part, which is not present in Dolciani (Dolciani is a cakewalk compared to AoPS). We'll likely take about 2 years to do Prealgebra this way, as we're using most of both books. We've skipped some sections of Dolciani, but we do ALL the problems in AoPS, including all the Challenge problems.

 

Since I have him doing Dolciani work in a notebook on his own, plus he does CLE Math 500 each day as a practice session to keep elementary math basics fresh (it takes him about 15 minutes to do a whole "lesson" in CLE, because it's all review and very easy - he likes it though), I figure he's doing enough paper/pencil work in math, so I have him do AoPS all on the white board now. I call out the problem or let him copy it from the book, then he solves it on the board and explains what he's doing. I make any comments necessary from the book, but we're not reading the problem solutions verbatim. If he did it the same way and can explain it to me that way, we don't need to read the solution. ;) I do read the explanations before the problem sets, and I read anything that he didn't figure out on his own. If he gets stuck, I'll ask him a socratic question, and he can usually figure it out. Sometimes my question is very vague, like, "Which property could you use to make this problem really easy?" :)

 

He's enjoying the book this way. When he does Intro to Algebra (probably around age 11), I'll want to move him toward working independently through it.

 

And FWIW about the "overcomplicated material", I think Chapter 1 was the worst for that. In Chapter 2, it really hasn't seemed overcomplicated like Chapter 1 was. I've worked through Chapter 7 myself, and I really enjoyed it. So give it a try. As I said, if she has a basic grasp of prealgebra topics already, I think it will be helpful in using the book this young.

[MASHomeschooler]

Knowing prealgebra and going through AoPS Prealgebra are two totally different things. :lol:

 

 

I am definitely getting that impression. :)

 

Thanks for explaining how you are working through it with your son. I think that my strategy, at least to start, will be similar - to guide her through it, really observing her every step so I can see how far away she really is from "getting it". Then from there I can determine whether to let her flounder a bit, guide her, have her practice the skills with something else, show her the solution, skip it, or whatever. Hopefully that will allow her to experience the benefits without getting unnecessarily/overly frustrated.

 

So, reasons to use AoPS Pre-Algebra (even though pre-algebra content is "mastered") that I am hearing and speak to me are:

1) Provide the "depth" I claim to want but don't always know how to provide 

2) Provide a transition to the level of challenge in AoPS materials

3) Provide a transition to the discovery approach in AoPS materials (with the goal being for her to be able to handle this fairly independently by the end of Pre-Algebra)

[EndOfOrdinary]

I was once an alternative school math teacher, and now a homeschooler of an 8 year old as well.  We are using Art of Problem solving pre-algebra this year.  Much like your daughter, my son "knows" his pre-algebra.  However, he doesn't know in the sense that he can take it appart, play with it, see the numbers and what they are representing, and really internalize the information.  He can answer problems, and generally speak about them.  He can pass tests.  What AoPS does is it forces the student to really understand.

 

More than anything, I began with pre-algebra so that he could learn the format with information that he is really comfortable with.  This is not a "normal" program and is not established in a "normal" way.  That threw my son off.  This asks him to actually think and there is no process to follow to just get an answer.  If you were going to start your child with completely new information and a new format it might be too much for her to really feel successful.  It is the difference between difficult and complex.  Traditional texts provide difficult problems which are simple; AoPS provides easy problems which are complex.  It is a difficult transition for younger kids, because many - my son included - just knew how to scam the infromation.

 

I personally walked him through the first 2 chapters.  We did the third chapter verbally.  By the 4th chapter he could do most of it independently.  I am hoping that by the end, he will feel comfortable enough with the curriculum to be completely all in and really going with the algebra. 

[MASHomeschooler]

Thanks for sharing, EndOfOrdinary. I think there are some things that she "knows" but doesn't understand inside and out, as you're saying about your son. Another reason to proceed as planned; thanks. And I expect we will do similar to you and boscopup, with me guiding her through it at first as she adjusts, then working towards her becoming independent with it. Thanks!

[musicianmom]

Boscopup, your kids are similar in age to mine. What are your younger kids doing while you do this in-depth work with your oldest? I always feel rushed through lessons because I'm trying to hurry and get through before we get interrupted. It doesn't help that dd8 cannot handle any noise when she's concentrating. I think it's an auditory processing issue because my husband was diagnosed with APD as a child and he's the same way. But as a consequence, we rarely have time to dig in and take as much time as is needed for math, and I dread next year when the science gets more involved!

[boscopup]

Boscopup, your kids are similar in age to mine. What are your younger kids doing while you do this in-depth work with your oldest?

 

Playing outside in the sandbox. :lol:

 

Or if the weather is too bad, they're either playing somewhere else (I don't care where - just any other room!) or if I get desperate, I'll have them watch a Leapfrog or Magic School Bus or something. I teach my little ones in the morning, and then they're free to play. If they come into the room, they MUST be very quiet. They'll get kicked out if they make noise.