need impartial outsider feedback

[gardenmom5]

Okay - dudeling had one day of cub camp this week before leaving to go camping with dh. I was a "den walker".  the other two adults were a 16 yo girl who had command of the clipboard.  (sweet and reasonably responsible girl - but a TEEN.  I know her well enough to say, she is still learning about leading, and hesitant taking initiative over other people.) and a woman who seemed very . . . . stand-backish and a total follower, not a leader at all.  I had no confidence she would handle children in a chaotic place.

 

I had some run-ins with the coordinator for our den.  (who was rarely with our den during camp - maybe 10 mins total the whole day, and only to talk to teen-girl.)

 

It was time for the den to head to a mid-afternoon campfire pit, and the majority of the boys had left our "home station". they were going and no adult was with them.  teen-girl and coordinator were talking, and I asked teen girl to please go with the boys, as I was back in the den dealing with an aspie threatening a meltdown. (and yes - the aspie is mine)  Maybe I should have gone with the boys, and let teen-girl deal with a tantruming aspie.  but that seemed cruel to both.  coordinator was ticked I interrupted her, and told me "I was talking to her". 

 

we were e-mailed the list of carpool people, but even though the clipboard had a form for that specific information (each boy, and who their carpool was), it was no where on the clipboard, just that they had an assigned carpool.   I didn't want to let any of the 12 boys in our den out of my sight until I knew who they were going with and that person was there to take over responsibility.   I didn't know who each of the boys was going with, because there wasn't a copy of the carpool list.  some boys were good, knew who they were going with, and checked out like they were supposed to.  some didn't, and I was freaking because not all the rides were there, and I had no idea who they were supposed to be with or who I was looking for.  as I was expressing/venting my concern/frustration to a dad I know (happens to be the father of teen-girl), the "coordinator" (who I didn't know was there) said "that's why I e-mailed you the list".   the woman in charge of the whole camp happened to be in earshot and told her the list needed to be printed off and included in the clipboard information.

 

there were 10 dens, with easily as many as up to 12 boys each.  (ours did.) we had boys leave to buy candy or go to the toilets without buddies. (despite refrains of "stick to your buddy")  we had a boy show up in our den and it took *him* five minutes to realize he was in the wrong den.  none of the den -walkers know all the boys.   some boys  from a number of dens refused to wear name tags.

 

to make things worse - the information told the boys to bring a lunch.  camp started at 12:30 and "lunch" was at 4:45.  so we had hungry boys, and even one who didn't even bring a lunch.

 

anyway - that's the background. I did send an email apologizing for being out of line and being a control freak.  (and yes, I did give her information I doubt she knew.)  I was trying to be sincere, though I'm not sure it would come across that way.

 

so - please be gentle with me, was I out of line?, what should/could I have done differently? 

[starwarsmomma]

Was this twilight camp?

I wouldn't have bothered to explain it to her at all.  She should have handled it better.  She didn't know the situation, made a quick (incorrect) judgement and then slammed you for it.

 

I wouldn't worry about it.  As a frequent volunteer stuff in scouts, I've been told worse by rude people.  LOL  

 

I just ignore and let it drop.  

[gardenmom5]

yes twilight camp.  my other boys did day camp.

 

I wanted to end things on a positive, as things are looking like I will be seeing the coordinator much more frequently, and not a once a year or so with only cubs.  (then again, as I do more pursuing of information, maybe it will still only be the "major" pack meetings.  fine with me.)

[Catwoman]

I don't think you were out of line at all. It sounds like you were trying to be organized and responsible and the others... weren't.

 

IMO, they should be apologizing to you. It doesn't sound like they had a clue.

[Jan in SC]

It sounds like the entire event was disorganized. I don't think you did anything wrong pointing out issues to them and trying to help.

 

I do have one concern, and it probably won't go over well, but - I have an aspie(ish) child. When he was younger, I only volunteered as a leader/helper, if my dh or a friend could be with him. I never wanted to have to step away from the group to deal with him if I was considered one of the "official" helpers. That would be my only issue. It might be that you were 30 seconds and then went to help, which is no big deal, but if you had to deal with him for a while, another adult was probably needed.

[Laurie4b]

I run children's programs and I would be freaking out at the organizational holes that left open liability big time. Minimal levels of child security were not in place. Scout rules for child security were not in place.

 

There should be 2 volunteers supervising the kids All. The. Time.  I assume that means adult volunteers for Scouts, but possibly a teen could count. However, supervising means that you are actually with the group. You don't send a herd of kids off to the next activity without an escort.

You & others should have had hard copies of the carpool info.

You & others should have had a hard copy list of who was in your den.

I agree with a pp; if you have a child who is prone to melt-downs, you can't both handle your child and your responsibilities to the rest of the group. However, there were 3 of you assigned to the group. If you had to deal with your child, the other two should have escorted the kids.

If you didn't say excuse me before interrupting the two who were talking, well, that was a bit of a social glitch, but interrupting to tell them that the kids needed the second person for an escort was appropriate.

 

 

[gardenmom5]

It sounds like the entire event was disorganized. I don't think you did anything wrong pointing out issues to them and trying to help.

 

I do have one concern, and it probably won't go over well, but - I have an aspie(ish) child. When he was younger, I only volunteered as a leader/helper, if my dh or a friend could be with him. I never wanted to have to step away from the group to deal with him if I was considered one of the "official" helpers. That would be my only issue. It might be that you were 30 seconds and then went to help, which is no big deal, but if you had to deal with him for a while, another adult was probably needed.

 

 

I run children's programs and I would be freaking out at the organizational holes that left open liability big time. Minimal levels of child security were not in place. Scout rules for child security were not in place.

 

There should be 2 volunteers supervising the kids All. The. Time.  I assume that means adult volunteers for Scouts, but possibly a teen could count. However, supervising means that you are actually with the group. You don't send a herd of kids off to the next activity without an escort.

You & others should have had hard copies of the carpool info.

You & others should have had a hard copy list of who was in your den.

I agree with a pp; if you have a child who is prone to melt-downs, you can't both handle your child and your responsibilities to the rest of the group. However, there were 3 of you assigned to the group. If you had to deal with your child, the other two should have escorted the kids.

If you didn't say excuse me before interrupting the two who were talking, well, that was a bit of a social glitch, but interrupting to tell them that the kids needed the second person for an escort was appropriate.

this is just about *our* den - one of ten dens at the event.  each den had their own adult helpers, three per den, so in the event one adult had to do something away from the boys - there should have been two left.  it should have been enough.

 

we had one clipboard that teen-girl held onto very possessively (I think coordinator told her to) with the names of each boy - the forms had a space where the carpool info was supposed to go - it wasn't listed.  that's the den coordinator.  other dens' had the information on their "clipboard".  I know - I looked as we were checking out.  the camp did have a check-out station, but some boys just walked on out.  with all the dens up there at one time, it was very chaotic.  I was actually able to track most of them, but a couple got lost in the shuffle.  I was able to track down one, and he was with whom he was supposed to be. the other left slightly early, without checking out.  I was ticked to not even know who he was supposed to have gone home with.  (to my knowledge, he went home with who he was supposed to.)  there was a line of cones non-staff adults were not allowed to cross.

 

the boys had NO escort when I interrupted.  teen-girl and coordinator were talking (don't know about what), and stand-back mom was standing off to the side watching them. (while all the boys walked off . . . )  she came very late, and possibly only about 30 minutes before this incident.  at least we had a temp before she came.  I was sorry to see temp leave.  I had never met her before and had no time to do more than exchange names.

 

I hadn't volunteered to be an adult helper, merely said I would be at camp because I was concerned how dudeling would handle things.  coordinator then made me an adult helper.

[gardenmom5]

thank you to those that responded.  I was irritated by the lack of organization/hard copy information by our den coordinator, and feeling like I was the only one of the den walkers trying to know the whereabouts of the den,   I started wondering if I was just being control freaky. 

 

the stations had much better awareness of who was where.

[KungFuPanda]

I'm a fly-by-the-seat-of-my-pants, laid back kind of girl, but this would have my heart racing. Boys that young NEED supervision and they HAVE to stay with a buddy. What if someone sprains an ankle in the woods? What if a kid goes home with some other family he knows and then the family he was SUPPOSED to ride with asks YOU where this kid is and why he was released.

 

It sounds disorganized and unsafe and I'm comfortable with a level of disorder and physical adventure.

[Alessandra]

I am having a bit of a hard time picturing what happened and when and where. But for comparison, at my dd's Girl Scout camp, for girls who were picked up, rather than going on the bus, the procedure was that there had to be a signed release from the parent indicating who girl was leaving with and all people picking up girls had to show driver's licenses, even people who said they were parents (unless the camp director already knew them). 

 

There HAS to be a system. Whoever sent you the email dropped the ball, imo. When I have been in charge of similar things, I ALWAYS bring lots of extra copies of important lists and documents. Btw, I don't think anyone should have "command" of a clipboard; others should have access to the info.

 

I think you were fine. The overall organization should have been designed (like a spacecraft) for redundancy -- meaning extra copies of paperwork, more than minimum number of adults.

 

 

[Laurie4b]

this is just about *our* den - one of ten dens at the event.  each den had their own adult helpers, three per den, so in the event one adult had to do something away from the boys - there should have been two left.  it should have been enough.

 

we had one clipboard that teen-girl held onto very possessively (I think coordinator told her to) with the names of each boy - the forms had a space where the carpool info was supposed to go - it wasn't listed.  that's the den coordinator.  other dens' had the information on their "clipboard".  I know - I looked as we were checking out.  the camp did have a check-out station, but some boys just walked on out.  with all the dens up there at one time, it was very chaotic.  I was actually able to track most of them, but a couple got lost in the shuffle.  I was able to track down one, and he was with whom he was supposed to be. the other left slightly early, without checking out.  I was ticked to not even know who he was supposed to have gone home with.  (to my knowledge, he went home with who he was supposed to.)  there was a line of cones non-staff adults were not allowed to cross.

 

the boys had NO escort when I interrupted.  teen-girl and coordinator were talking (don't know about what), and stand-back mom was standing off to the side watching them. (while all the boys walked off . . . )  she came very late, and possibly only about 30 minutes before this incident.  at least we had a temp before she came.  I was sorry to see temp leave.  I had never met her before and had no time to do more than exchange names.

 

I hadn't volunteered to be an adult helper, merely said I would be at camp because I was concerned how dudeling would handle things.  coordinator then made me an adult helper.

 

It's always really hard when the person with the highest level of leadership skills (you)  is way down the organizational scale. I think you had every reason to have felt stressed. I hope you didn't feel that I was criticizing you, but the system. Just because 3 adults are assigned doesn't mean Scout policy of 2 deep supervision is being followed. The clip board should have been with the highest ranking volunteer. A teen doesn't have the status to deal with boys splitting off without escorts, etc. All your alarm bells should have been going off. It was appropriate that they were going off.

 

 

[In The Great White North]

I don't think you were being control-freakish at all. My sympathies.   For next time:

 

1.   When you say you are coming to take care of dudeling's special needs, don't let them talk you into doing something else.  Even if the event gets cancelled due to lack of adult supervision.

 

2.  Ask for carpool arrangements ahead of time.  And all their names, parents' names, phone numbers, medical info, etc.  Make sure your den is organized, even if the rest of the group is not.   Always prepared and all that.

 

3.  16 year olds are not adults and don't count as such for any Scout event I've ever been to.  Ask next time who the other adults are and refuse to participate if the other "adult" is actually another minor you will be responsible for.

 

4.  There needs to be some consequence within your den for boys going off alone, leaving without checking out, etc.  Like not coming next time unless a parent comes too.

 

5.  What's a Den walker and where's the Den Leader?

 

ETA:  Not trying to criticize you but I don't think the organization is going to change, so if you want to avoid this experience again next year, you'll have to play hard ball.

[gardenmom5]

It's always really hard when the person with the highest level of leadership skills (you)  is way down the organizational scale. I think you had every reason to have felt stressed. I hope you didn't feel that I was criticizing you, but the system. Just because 3 adults are assigned doesn't mean Scout policy of 2 deep supervision is being followed. The clip board should have been with the highest ranking volunteer. A teen doesn't have the status to deal with boys splitting off without escorts, etc. All your alarm bells should have been going off. It was appropriate that they were going off.

 

 

no, I didn't feel like you were criticizing me.  when there is that much reliance on helpers, the helpers need to be better organized.  I did what I could.  I guess I'm really glad I only sent dudeling to one day of camp this year.  dh made plans the same week, without knowing they were the same week until all plans had already been made.

 

before camp even started, I just felt "I don't want to do this", but went anyway.

[gardenmom5]

I don't think you were being control-freakish at all. My sympathies.   For next time:

 

1.   When you say you are coming to take care of dudeling's special needs, don't let them talk you into doing something else.  Even if the event gets cancelled due to lack of adult supervision.

 

2.  Ask for carpool arrangements ahead of time.  And all their names, parents' names, phone numbers, medical info, etc.  Make sure your den is organized, even if the rest of the group is not.   Always prepared and all that.

 

3.  16 year olds are not adults and don't count as such for any Scout event I've ever been to.  Ask next time who the other adults are and refuse to participate if the other "adult" is actually another minor you will be responsible for.

 

4.  There needs to be some consequence within your den for boys going off alone, leaving without checking out, etc.  Like not coming next time unless a parent comes too.

 

5.  What's a Den walker and where's the Den Leader?

this was cub daycamp.  the oldest cubs are 11.  the "coordinator" e-mailed the carpool information, but did NOT include it with the clipboard that went with each den.  the gal over the entire camp had a notebook with every form parents filled out - I saw what she had, and she was actually better organized, but could have done a better check-out system.  the gal over the camp also told her it needed to be on the clipboard.  (just after coordinator told me "I e-mailed you that information")

the "den walkers" with the day helpers with each den.  I've NO IDEA where the regular den mother's were.  one was back at the carpool meet place as she didn't come to camp.  the coordinator is supposedly one of the regular den leaders, and she was never with the cubs in our packs during the day.  I think they split our regular bear den (made of multiple packs) into two dens for day camp and the coordinator was with the other den.  I may be wrong.  apparently there was a training day last month I never heard about until someone else referred to it in the past tense.

it's a small park - with a large open field surrounded by thick woods (and few places you can get through growth).  all stations were on the field. exceptions were archery and shooting and the adults over those stations were *hyper*organized and very firm of rule.