Feeling very lost...(long)

[Melinda]

Sorry in advance that this is so long, but I wanted to give as much information as possible to make figuring out what to do next easier.

 

I am not sure I even belong here anymore.  When we were homeschooling before, this was definitely where we fit best though, so I am back here.  I posted in the general education forum a couple of days ago about trying to fit everything in.  After thinking about it, I feel like I may not be making the right choices for curriculum and I am not sure how to fix the problem I have created (the stopping homeschool for 2 years and now the kids are behind instead of way ahead problem).

 

My kids have always been way ahead.  When I had my fourth child and needed a break (and she needed to be able to nap during the day), I enrolled my oldest two (going into 2nd and 3rd grade at the time) in the local public school and child #3 (4 at the time) in a half-day preschool.  They were so far ahead at that point, that I figured that even if it was a complete waste of time academically (which it was), that it wouldn't matter too much because they would still come out of it ahead of grade level.

 

The plan was to put them in the local public school for one year and then continue homeschooling.  There were a lot of issues with the public school, the worst being that they refused to test my son for advanced math for several months based on my assessment.  They finally tested him around January and discovered that I was telling the truth about him needing to be in an advanced math class.  At that point, they would not place him there because it was not the beginning of the school year.

 

In March of their year at the local public school (2011-2012), all three of my older kids got into what seemed to be an amazing school.  We had been entering the enrollment lottery every year since my oldest child turned 3, trying to get in.  Out of 12 spots available (and I believe close to 2,000 applications competing for these 12 spots), my kids got 3 of them.  We felt like that was a sign that we should try it.

 

We got our paperwork in and went to the open house.  We were very impressed by the programs in place and the accommodations that were available: half-day Spanish immersion, free Kodaly keyboard and Suzuki violin/cello lessons, after school clubs like yoga, chess, and skiing that were covered by the activity fund, the teachers' willingness to bring in appropriate work from higher-level classrooms if the kids mastered the available materials, and on, and on, and on.  We were so excited about this and had such high hopes.

 

Between the open house we attended in May/June and school starting in August, a lot had changed.  At this point, the school was $67,000 in the hole.  Spanish instruction was reduced to 30 minutes 1x/wk for one semester, Kodaly/Suzuki was eliminated and the only way to get instrumental music was to pay $40/child per month for a group music class where they use small percussion instruments - no orchestral music at all, yoga club started costing $40-$50/month per child and I think the other clubs just disappeared.  We were not happy, but sent them anyway, thinking that they would still be getting a valuable education from this school.

 

My then 4th grader (who started teaching himself algebra at 3 or 4 and could add/subtract huge strings of numbers in his head at that point) had two "research projects" the entire year.  One was a tri-fold travel brochure for a country of his choice and one was the science fair.  He was also required to do 5-6 math problems per day (things like 7+4 and 5-2).

 

I was told that my then 3rd grader (who entered this school doing Singapore 4B with ease, btw) was struggling to keep up with second grade work.  There was a 504 meeting called (she has VERY minor tourette's and epilepsy) where I was told that she was severely disabled and needed a full-time aide in the classroom - fishy, as the lack of funding had caused them to lose their classroom aide the previous week.

 

My Kindergarten student did not have any issues to speak of, but he was doing roughly the same level work when we enrolled him in Montessori as he tests into now.

 

None of them were challenged in any way the entire year and there were no materials brought in to accommodate any of them at their level, so we pulled them and will be returning to homeschool this fall.  They were all so bored that they have lost a lot of ground through lack of using their skills.  I have no doubt that they will get back on the track they were on when we previously homeschooled, but I need some guidance on how to get there.

 

My son who was previously so far ahead in math is now behind and dropped 40 points on his math score.

My daughter who was ahead when she entered the Montessori school outscored the school, county, and state in everything by 25+ points after they told me she was severely disabled, but is also now behind where she was when she entered the school.

 

As of last week (Jared is 5th, Hannah is 4th, and Nathan is 1st grade):

Jared tested into Saxon 5/4 and Hannah tested into Saxon 2/3 (she was right on the cusp), but was able to place in 5/4 when I gave her the middle grades test.  Nathan tested into Saxon 1.

Jared tested into Spelling Power D and Hannah tested into Spelling Power G.  Nathan tested into Spelling Power A.

I plan to go back to WWE 3 and FLL 3 with both Jared and Hannah and do WWE1 and FLL1 with Nathan.

Jared's handwriting is atrocious and can be difficult to read.  Nathan's is typical of a 6 year old boy.

Jared and Hannah both exceeded all the reading and comprehension tests I gave them.  Nathan tested into 3rd grade reading.

Jared tested very high in the inventing disposition with a performing disposition secondary.

Hannah tested equally well in Performing and Inventing dispositions, with Thinking/Creating slightly higher.

Nathan tested very high in the thinking/creating disposition and almost at zero in all the other dispositions.

All three are extremely kinesthetic, with visual second, and auditory third.

 

I have lots and lots of materials available and am able to get other things if I need to.

 

Given the situation, what do I need to do to get them back to where they were and continue on the path we were on?  Which programs would you use with kids like this?  I had planned to put the older two in everything but spelling together and use Saxon 5/4 to build all their basic skills back up, but now I am feeling like this is the wrong way to go about things.  I chose Saxon to bring them back up to speed because of all the built-in review, but I am afraid it is going to move too slowly for them.  At the same time, I am afraid to let them go too fast this time through because evidently they didn't retain as well as I thought they were (although, it may just be the effects of virtually no academic challenge for two years).

 

One more thing...my kids have never been IQ tested, but have always learned 99% of whatever they needed or wanted to with little effort.  They have always been intense kids who somehow just know things they were never taught.  I have been told by long-time "gifted" educators that they have no doubt.  All this makes me wonder, though.  If they are really gifted, would they lose ground like this?  Does this happen to truly gifted kids?

[quark]

Please know I mean well but I may not be qualified to suggest anything because we've always homeschooled and I have an only, and I don't have similar experience to what you have been through.

 

First, :grouphug: ! Sorry it's been so hard.

 

Second, every child is different and I don't know whether "truly" gifted kids will lose ground (again, I only have experience with one child) but I do know that boredom and lack of challenge can do a lot to kill a child's motivation, no matter how gifted and/or accelerated/ far ahead. Some have the drive to fight through it all and thrive no matter where you put them (my DH is like this, excels in anything despite very difficult home-life and school situations during childhood) but some kids will just fall between the cracks. They will wither and their spirit will take a huge beating and they will just stop asking questions or caring (DS is like this and why we pulled him out of kindy after just a few weeks). There are so many flavors in between.

 

I have little experience with the curricula you mention so take this with a grain of salt. My first thought really is to "deschool", especially your older two because it sounds like they will need it the most. Deschooling doesn't really need to equal lack of any learning. Instead, make a lot of interesting and intriguing resources available to them, including alternative resources like living math books (library trips!), puzzles, origami, opportunities to just think and build and do stuff with their hands if they are inclined that way. Try to avoid prescribing a set time or day to use the resources and see what happens from there. Give them time to rediscover the beauty of learning. If you are uncomfortable doing this for a few months, try it for a couple of weeks.

 

They are still young and a lot of "lost ground" can be covered orally or with read alouds and documentaries (more so if you have the time to be there to answer questions).

 

More than anything, give yourselves time to heal and enjoy being home and learning together again? I hope this helps!

[Tanikit]

Yes, I think you can lose it whether gifted or not - some things just require practice - you can't remember more advanced math if you never get to practice it but it should come back very quickly when they do start practicing again. I would aim to move at their pace - they may even need to deschool for a while depending on their personalities and then get back to work. I would plan on having quite a bit available from things that should be slightly too easy for them to work that is a couple of levels above where you guess they will be soon.

 

If you helped them get to those levels before they started schooling then you will know what to do with them and how to teach them when you start doing so. You just need to give your whole family the chance to readjust to homeschooling and sort out routines as there are now naturally more children to deal with and they are all older.

[Melinda]

Thank you both.  Deschooling is a foreign concept to me, but it sounds like that is what we need to do.

[jenbrdsly]

 

My then 4th grader (who started teaching himself algebra at 3 or 4 and could add/subtract huge strings of numbers in his head at that point) had two "research projects" the entire year.  One was a tri-fold travel brochure for a country of his choice and one was the science fair.  He was also required to do 5-6 math problems per day (things like 7+4 and 5-2).

 

I was told that my then 3rd grader (who entered this school doing Singapore 4B with ease, btw) was struggling to keep up with second grade work.  There was a 504 meeting called (she has VERY minor tourette's and epilepsy) where I was told that she was severely disabled and needed a full-time aide in the classroom - fishy, as the lack of funding had caused them to lose their classroom aide the previous week.

 

My Kindergarten student did not have any issues to speak of, but he was doing roughly the same level work when we enrolled him in Montessori as he tests into now.

 

Given the situation, what do I need to do to get them back to where they were and continue on the path we were on?  Which programs would you use with kids like this?  I had planned to put the older two in everything but spelling together and use Saxon 5/4 to build all their basic skills back up, but now I am feeling like this is the wrong way to go about things.  I chose Saxon to bring them back up to speed because of all the built-in review, but I am afraid it is going to move too slowly for them.  At the same time, I am afraid to let them go too fast this time through because evidently they didn't retain as well as I thought they were (although, it may just be the effects of virtually no academic challenge for two years).

 

One more thing...my kids have never been IQ tested, but have always learned 99% of whatever they needed or wanted to with little effort.  They have always been intense kids who somehow just know things they were never taught.  I have been told by long-time "gifted" educators that they have no doubt.  All this makes me wonder, though.  If they are really gifted, would they lose ground like this?  Does this happen to truly gifted kids?

 

 

I can't figure out how to multi-quote anymore, so I condensed the things I thought thoughts about.  What a nightmare for you!!! Big hugs!

 

In retrospect, the school could have been doing a lot of things for your 4th grader in math.  They could have sent him up to 5th grade for math, signed him up for Stanford EPGY (although cost would have been the issue), signed him up for Dreambox, hooked him up with Descartes' Cove.  Now he's lost a whole year of school. 

 

I would not do Saxon.  If your son was at one point able to manipulate big numbers in his head, then he'll be able to do that again. Saxon is more about memorization and algorithms.  So I'd think sticking with Singapore and than moving to AOPS Algebra would be the way to go.  I have some more info on Constructivist math on my blog that you might find helpful.

 

Now for your third grader.  A 504 is by definition not a Special Education plan.  504's are for things that don't qualify for special ed funding.  So why were they saying your daughter needed an aide?  At that point, it should have technically moved to an IEP.  That's all really weird.  However, if she really does qualify for special ed, then she'll still qualify no matter what, even if she's homeschooled.  So document EVERYTHING, and don't be afraid to advocate for your child.

 

Good luck!

 

[Melinda]

Thanks, Jen.

 

Singapore and moving into AoPS was our pre-school plan for him, but I have been worried about putting him back there.  I am glad to hear somebody suggest that, it makes me feel better about making the choice to skip Saxon in favor of SM.

 

As far as Hannah goes, she has VERY mild juvenile tourette's (her tics manifest as eye twitching, clearing her throat, blinking often, etc).  She also has a very mild case of juvenile epilepsy (petit mal absence seizures - basically, she appears to be staring off into space for a second or two).  The neurologist is fairly confident she will outgrow both issues by age 12.  Both the tourette's and the epilepsy are subtle enough that unless you are told they are present, it is likely you would never notice either of them.

 

I have no idea why they were pushing for the 504 or saying that she is severely disabled, or that she needs a full-time aide, or how having a 504 would even qualify her for that.  She is definitely not severely disabled.  At the public school (non-Montessori), Hannah was surpassing the expectations of the classroom teacher to the point that she recommended her for the magnet school.  At home, she might need to be instructed in how to do things once, but that is it.  It is very odd to me that the Montessori school did not seem to know what to do with her because she is one of those very studious over-achieving, striving for excellence in all things kids.

[Tracy]

I saw your initial post, and I didn't respond, because I didn't feel qualified.  I guess that is how a lot of us feel, but know that we feel for you and want to help as best we can. :grouphug:  My first thought, too, was to make sure they have some deschooling time.  Perhaps start a thread asking for lists of educational games, crafts, activities, etc. that you could do together or that they could do by themselves.  Keep a list of the things that pique their interest.  Meet with them after a couple of months (or whatever time frame you choose), and ask for their input as to what they want to do more formally.  

 

As you were talking about math, in particular, an article came to mind about an experiment that was done in a school nearly 100 years ago.  A school taught no formal math until 6th grade, but instead wove math concepts into the other subjects they were doing, such as literature and history.  At the end, the 6th graders who had no previous formal math instruction did better than the same-age students who had formal math instruction throughout elementary school.  It seems to me that you are feeling like you have to catch up, but perhaps this article can give you hope that the catch-up does not have to encompass repeating 2 full years of math instruction.  

I hope that helps.  

[Melinda]

Thanks, Tracy.  That article is amazing and I appreciate you posting it here.  Since testing the kids last week, I have felt so selfish for needing to take a break from homeschooling and seeing what happened to my kids because of my choice.  This article makes me feel that I have not failed them and that it will be okay in the end.  Thank you.

[Incognito]

Since it has been a couple of years since you were homeschooling, perhaps you haven't heard of Life of Fred's elementary series?  I would think it would be a great fit for you during a "quasi de-schooling time".  It is a math text, but it is a story.  Let the kids read, do the math and remember what they knew.  We use it more slowly and more systematically, but my kids are younger.

 

Try not to beat yourself up about choices you made - it sounds like you really did make thoughtful choices and they just didn't work out great.  So you are changing what you are doing.  It seems like you are really on top of things and being proactive. 

 

I haven't done what you are doing, and haven't been in your shoes, but my advice is to be careful to not make the kids feel stupid for how much they have dropped/lost.  It would be upsetting.  They will likely catch the drift of why they are being pulled from school and I'd work to find a way to frame it all more positively than the need for the change naturally would seem.  Emphasize how nice it will be to learn together as a family more again, find ways for them to pursue their interests and talents, etc.

 

 

 

[Melinda]

Thanks, Incognito.

 

Yes, I have been careful not to say any of the things I have written here out loud within their earshot.  I would hate for them to get down on themselves about something that was not their fault.

 

We actually have the entire series of LoF and Jared enjoys reading them and doing the work in them as he reads.  I may start trying to do LoF with Hannah, though.  Thanks for the suggestion!

[MinivanMom]

I saw your post on the general education forum.  First, I think you need to be kind to yourself.  We do the best we can with the knowledge we have.  When we know better, we do better.  You made the best choice with the information you had about the school situation.  Now that you know what it is really like, you are making a different choice.  It is a rare child who never encounters a poor school, poor teacher, poor class, or poor curriculum.  Others have survived and then thrived.  Your children will too.

 

Second, I think it is a myth that gifted children will continue to learn and thrive in poor environments.  There are a few highly resilient outliers who might, but most children need instruction and support.  I'm not surprised that your children have lost ground in math, while continuing to excel in reading.  Areas like math, writing, and grammar generally require direct instruction (even for most gifted students) so it makes sense that they would lose ground there.  Reading, though, is an area where it is easier for children to progress independently. 

 

As far as curriculum choices, I agree with the other posters.  If math was a natural area of strength for your son then you should be choosing something like Singapore, Art of Problem Solving, or Life of Fred.  If you have to start further back, that's just fine.  Don't worry about where you have to place him as long as he is consistently moving forward.  I think the same principle applies to other subject areas as well.  Choose the best, most rigorous curriculum and place them where they need to be (even if it means placing them back).  I wouldn't be surprised if they moved forward at a pretty quick pace.  It doesn't matter, though, as long as they are continually progressing. 

They will probably be back on track within a year or two.

 

Eventually their time in school will become an amusing anecdote you tell people when they ask why you are homeschooling.  "Well, we tried putting them in school a few years back and . . . " 

[lewelma]

I'm so sorry for what you and your children have been through. Really really sorry. 

 

My guess is that it will take you a full year to get their attitudes back on track.  Boredom is a horrible thing and I am guessing that they will also have a sense of being 'not good enough.'  You will need to be very patient.  And personally, if it were me, I would keep a diary on each kid, including my thoughts about his/her emotional needs, what I plan to do about it, and the successes that I achieved.  During the transition year, when I would be feeling low and like things were not progressing, I could look back at where they were and see how far they had come.

 

As for school work, he is an idea for a plan.  Obviously, I don't know you or your children, I just wanted to show you how you can ease in.

 

Month 1: Read alouds in history and science, field trips 3 times per week, classic movies (e.g. Singing in the Rain with literary discussion), math puzzles (SM has a bunch of these at the end of each of the intensive practice sections).  At the end of the month I would have each child make a poster about their favorite field trip and prepare a presentation for daddy.  So subjects covered: history, science, math, language arts (literature, writing, oral presentations)

 

Months 2 and 3: Continue read alouds, but now assign books also -- fun/interesting history and science book.  Have them pick whatever topic they are interested in from the library, and suggest 1 history and 1 science book per week.  Give each one a good literature book to read also.  For math, I would get them on things like Khan academy - an online math program with built in motivation and the ability to choose whatever they are interested in studying.  I would now do just 1 field trip per week.  Have them prepare a poster 2 times per month, and by month 3 have them copy over a favorite poem every week and then decorate it. Continue with classic movies and literary analysis if they like it.

 

Months 4 and 5: pick up spelling, and start them in Singapore Math (be prepared to accelerate, and do quite a bit of it orally to get them to the level they need to be at more quickly). Depending on your children, decide how to increase their writing output using projects, stories, nonfiction.  But still keep it more casual - meaning no curriculum. Continue with read alouds and assigned reading for history, science, and literature. 

 

Months 6 - 9: Pick up grammar, consider some organized writing instruction with a set weekly schedule.

 

Hope that gives you some things to think about,

 

Ruth in NZ

[Melinda]

Thanks, Minivan (sorry, I don't know your actual name).

 

I am so glad I reached out.  I feel a lot better about things now.  I appreciate what you wrote to me - it brought tears to my eyes.  <3

 

[Melinda]

Thanks, Ruth.

 

I love the idea about the diary and will definitely be doing that.

 

Thanks for writing up that schedule, I think I may use at least part of it.

 

Thank you.

[quark]

There's so much wisdom in your post for everyone I think. Thanks for writing all that out Ruth!

[8filltheheart]

Hi Melinda,

 

I haven't read all the responses.  I read your post earlier and thought about it while I was working with my kids.   I see that a lot of people have responded since, but here are my thoughts anyway.

 

I am not a parent that worries about any type of label for my kids.   I simply let them be who they are and progress them at their pace.....whatever that may be.   So, from my perspective.....all of that is irrelevant as to what you should do.   I do not believe that being ahead before and behind now means that anything at all long term.   I have had kids that have been significantly behind end up significantly ahead.   So, simply offering them a positive learning environment that encourages them to be the best them they can be will allow them to blossom.  

 

I would recommend using non-graded materials and materials that are completely different than traditional textbooks that they would have seen the last few yrs at school.   The only subject where this is probably going to be an issue is in math. 

 

I would consider looking into Hands on Equations as a supplement for math.   I personally wouldn't use Saxon b/c the incremental approach has too much repetition for my kids.   Beast Academy, Singapore, Math in Focus might options.   Or, perhaps combining a more traditional workbook like CLE or Horizons or Math Mammoth with something like Beast Academy.

 

I would simply spend lots of time reading to them and letting them read for science, history, and lit.   I would look into something like MCT's CE for vocabulary.  

 

Most of all, don't worry about what has been.   Simply move forward and focus on where they are and where they are going.   :)

[NASDAQ]

SM is very easy to accelerate, so I would go with that, especially since it's what you used before. You might need to do extra math drill on the side. If you do one lesson a day you're going to pull ahead very quickly, especially if the underlying work is easy for them.

 

Michael Sull has a program called American Cursive Handwriting. You can use that to teach your son an adult hand -- it's designed to be used for adults but will work for a 5th grader. In the alternative, you can just teach him to type.

[Melinda]

Thanks, 8filltheheart.

 

The more I am thinking about this, the more I feel like Singapore is what we will end up doing.  I have Beast Academy also, so may supplement with that.  Thanks for reminding me about it!

 

Also, I appreciate the sentiment about looking forward and not back.  Dwelling on what has been as opposed to all the fun things we have to look forward to does not help anything or anybody.

[Melinda]

Thanks, Nasdaq.

 

I think you are right about SM with a supplement being the way to go.

 

I have never heard of American Cursive Handwriting, so thank you for that.  I plan to start having them all do typing, but I really want all of them to have penmanship that is at least legible.

 

Thank you, thank you!

[Pen]

Not Saxon.   Other than thoughts you've already been given like SM/AoPS, for oldest you could also try a program that goes through all basics, such as a Basic College Math, or Barron's Arithmetic the Easy Way, and then go on with Pre-Algebra as soon as he is ready for it.  Or, if he was already working on Algebra on his own, go back to that and fill in other holes as needed.   I'd go to last highest level of SM the others were doing and review and then progress on up from there, I think. 

 

Writing compositions for olders that include research in science or history, or short essays from prompts.  If you could use the WWE as help to practice penmanship, maybe you could use something else like Brave Writer for more freedom and to be able to write about topics of interest.  

 

I'd let reading be mostly whatever they want to read with, perhaps, a weekly trip to library as part of your plans.   And reading aloud to them also.  Maybe some interesting audio materials.   We liked Story of the World audio a lot.

 

You could try something like Duolingo for some language perhaps.

 

 And maybe do something for music (instrument since that seemed an appealing part of the special school?), and / or art, and also some nature study or something along those lines so you get some balance between academics and other things.

 

Yes, if you do not use it, you lose it, in most areas.   Perhaps not in learning to ride a bike, where once grasped it is mostly retained.   But people quickly lose language and other such skills when not used.

 

My ds was in bricks and mortar schools his first years and started homeschooling very behind, but is catching up and moving ahead now.  Yours will probably get caught back up and move on ahead within a year or two, and they probably did gain some things from being in regular school--even an understanding of what it is like.  In any case, you were trying for something that sounds like it could have been superb, and now realizing it wasn't you are now making adjustments, that is part of life.  It will be okay.

[Terrilth]

At the same time, I am afraid to let them go too fast this time through because evidently they didn't retain as well as I thought they were (although, it may just be the effects of virtually no academic challenge for two years).

I think you hit the nail on the head here.  I don't know if your kids are gifted or not, and it really doesn't matter at this point.  What you know is that they were ahead, and now they are behind.

 

I agree with the deschooling idea.

 

If I were you, I'd spend the first 4-ish months or so simply letting the kids choose what they want to learn about/read/make/write about. I'd go completely in the direction of unschooling and then slowly start implementing what you SEE that they NEED and WANT. The thing is, you will only know what they need and want by observing them.  So observe for a while while they de-stress and de-school.

 

I'm sorry your kids have had a hard time.  :(

 

[Pen]

I am unclear about the "deschooling" idea here.  It sounded to me like the bricks and mortar experience was itself basically a deschooling period, with no particular academic progress and that fall would now be time to get back to some schooling.    ????

[Tracy]

I am unclear about the "deschooling" idea here.  It sounded to me like the bricks and mortar experience was itself basically a deschooling period, with no particular academic progress and that fall would now be time to get back to some schooling.    ????

 

Deschooling just means recovering from their school experience where they were made to do only things someone else wanted them to do.  Not only are they behind academically, but they have lost their love of learning and their ability to learn things on their own.  That is what you need to recapture before you can address the academic concerns.  The generally accepted way to do that is to start with a period of vacation (which they may already have had over the summer) followed by fun educational activities, such as field trips, games, read alouds, etc. in which they have some say as to what they do.  You then gradually introduce more formal academics.  But as you see what they love, you can tailor those academics to their interests, skills and personalities.  

[texasmama]

To help your mindset, I suggest approaching the situation as if you had not homeschooled previously but rather were starting now for the first time. What would you do if this were the case?

 

Leave the guilt at the door. It serves no useful purpose. Move upward and forward. I think it will go well. :)

[mathwonk]

you, and your kids, are way...y ahead of the curve, i personally went to a poor school for 12 years! hang in there.

[Melinda]

Pen, Terrilth, Tracymirko, Texasmama, and Mathwonk,

 

  I am so sorry I did not respond right away.  Our schedule has been hectic and I have not had time to respond to anything.  I appreciate all of you responding and am grateful for all the suggestions.  I am in a much better frame of mind now that we are starting (and utilizing a lot of the suggestions on this thread) and I am able to see that all is not lost.  Thanks for being patient with me.

[kiwik]

Maybe your oldest 2 and you could do beast academy together as a fun thing.

[Melinda]

Thanks, Kiwik. :)