I was thinking about newborns and shunning visitors today...

[BlsdMama]

I wouldn't bet on it. I have a new grand-niece that lives across the street from our dairy. Family members have been bringing in meals for them, and have not seen the baby except for pictures posted on Facebook. The baby is always "sleeping" when people arrive, no matter when they arrive, even if it's family, even if they're very kind & clean & healthy. I just think it's a sign of how far we've come from common sense. I don't know what these people are thinking. Somehow we managed to keep our children alive before germ gel and sequestering of babies.  :001_rolleyes:

 

Actually I'm anti germ gel and all for my kids eating dirt :D and  I still  don't think bringing a meal gets anyone a ticket to deliver something that could result in serious illness if a baby is a preemie or has lung issues or mom just plain doesn't want visitors.

 

FWIW, I'm not fond of visitors for the first couple weeks.  For goodness' sakes, I'd like a bit of time to snuggle in, recover, and nurse without having to worry about people seeing me without a bra, or be presentable, or be up and around and "hospitable."

 

Actually letting everybody and their brother near a baby with almost no immune system shows you how far we've come from common sense.  Baby USED to be held close to mama and NURSED to receive antibodies. That's not the case anymore.

 

I'm really happy (thrilled actually) for people who have had full term newborns with boisterous immune systems.  However, please do realize your experiences have colored your glasses.

 

Baby #2 - RSV prior to two months  - hospitalized

Baby #3   - Death due to NICU PREVENTABLE infection

Baby #4 - Respiratory and later immune issues - healthy now.  36 weeker Failure to thrive, two biopsies of the intestine before age two

Baby #8 - Failure to thrive (Healthy now)

Baby #9 - NICU stay (short term) rehospitalized shortly after birth, absolute nightmare (Healthy now)

Baby #11 - 15 day hospital stay - CPAP machine, FTT (Seems to be healthy now)

 

I'm one of those "treat naturally" folks.  I believe we're born with immune systems that can withhold quite a lot.  We only partially vax based on what we've researched carefully and decided.  I believe in not treating fevers until you have to, not using antibiotics 'til you're stuck, and staying out of doctor's offices to stay healthy.  We breastfeed, co-sleep, and do all of that other stuff that people do when they are conscientious. 

 

However:

 

Babies are far more delicate than people realize.

They are precious.

They are a gift.

They are NOT replaceable.

 

Wait a week?

Wait two?

 

So what?  What kind of incredibly selfish person puts her will/right to see a baby over the mother's sense of well-being or the baby's health if mom feels there is a reason to keep baby safe for a few days.

 

Bonding? We're talking about a couple of weeks!

 

Long term relationships are built on exactly that - the RELATIONSHIP, not fifteen minutes of holding a newborn when they are barely conscious.

 

And, FTR, my four month old is tucked safely in her carrier when we go out so people don't breathe on her.  She's not a doll, not a toy, and not something to entertain others, she is my very precious child who spent what seemed like an awful long time learning to breathe.   My family lives further away, but I didn't let  my closest friends here visit until she was almost three months old.  I wanted to see them badly, but the pediatrician was very serious about her not being exposed to things.  And, unfortunately, I know what it's like to be the mother of the tiny minority.

 

Who knows what the back story is here?

Does MIL get sick a lot?

Did DIL have three miscarriages before carrying this one?

Did baby have a CPAP machine for three days in the hospital and the pediatrician scared her to death?

 

One just doesn't know from the outside looking in.................

 

 

  I'd be incredibly insulted if my mother or my mother in law couldn't be sweet and patient for her well-being.  Or if they couldn't recognize that I wasn't being paranoid, selfish, or rotten....  And I'd really have to wonder about the adult woman who:

a.) didn't "get" it and it was her grandchild

or

b.) decided to make sarcastic remarks to complete strangers about her daughter in law.  Really?

[BlsdMama]

 

I think all this trash talk is striking a nerve.  I know I've been raked over the coals for not letting the in-laws be in the delivery room or camp at my house those first few weeks (and I didn't even make mil wash her hands before holding the baby).  It isn't spiteful.  Childbirth is hard.  The recovery is even harder.  Be kind!  Most new mothers aren't trying to keep people from their baby.  Even the crazy uptight new moms who squirt sanitizer at everyone who walks through the door aren't trying to be spiteful.  If anything it's a sign that they take motherhood seriously.  They take the responsibility to care for a new human being seriously.  Be glad that they care that much.  Most first time moms will relax over time.  Give them the space to find that balance without having so much criticism and condescension thrown at them.

 

Yes!

[Guest]

Wow! Didn't know this thread sprang to life while my head was turned! ;)

 

A few things:

 

1. The baby is not a preemie; the hairdresser specifically mentioned it. She said the baby was 9lbs. 5oz. I remembered because that was the size of my second child, so I can relate. He was mucho sturdy! It's not just grandma, either. They aren't having visitors hold the baby, full stop. Hairdresser talked about how she has all these photos of her own babies, being held by aunts, uncles, grannys, everyone. It won't be the case with the baby. Tangentially, she also said the daughter (or dil, I don't recall) won't nurse around/in front of anybody. So, if baby needs nursing, she must sequester herself off somewhere.

 

2. And yeah, the baby is always sleeping if grandma stops by, even if she texted first to ask if it was a good time to swing by.

 

3. It's entirely possible there is more to the story, of course. But I don't think so. It sounds to me like the "germs-around-the-baby" paranoia gone to excess.

 

4. I do believe in the "dirty vaccine" of some exposures. Obviously, not if your child is medically fragile, but if they are healthy, their immune system is *supposed* to see germs, so it can say, "Make immunities! That's a baddie we have to look out for!"

[Janie Grace]

 . . . and she's complaining about it to random women as she does their hair?  The dil sounds extreme, but I'm guessing there's a whole lot more to the story. 

 

I've known my hairdresser for a long time and we talk about all kinds of stuff, including family struggles. I don't think that part of it sounds weird.

[MinivanMom]

Wow! Didn't know this thread sprang to life while my head was turned! ;)

 

A few things:

 

1. The baby is not a preemie; the hairdresser specifically mentioned it. She said the baby was 9lbs. 5oz. I remembered because that was the size of my second child, so I can relate. He was mucho sturdy!  I don't think you can discern the state of the baby's health based on birth weight.  I've known of plenty of 9 & 10 lb babies who had to spend time in the NICU for respiratory problems (often after a C-section).  It's not just grandma, either. They aren't having visitors hold the baby, full stop. Then it isn't personal.  Hairdresser talked about how she has all these photos of her own babies, being held by aunts, uncles, grannys, everyone. It won't be the case with the baby.  So?!  I think most of us have enough life experience to know that the relationship grandma develops with the baby over time matters more than photos. Tangentially, she also said the daughter (or dil, I don't recall) won't nurse around/in front of anybody. So, if baby needs nursing, she must sequester herself off somewhere.  I am hyperventilating!  Surely you are not suggesting that the mother steps into another room to breastfeed out of spite!  I can't believe the grandma complained about her going to another room to breastfeed!  Isn't this a first-time mom learning to breastfeed her first child?  Sheesh, it took me months to learn how to breastfeed my first without completely taking my top off.  Even after 5 babies, I still step into the other room when I need to breastfeed.  I think that goes double with a newborn who may not be latching easily yet.  I can't believe anyone would criticize a new mom for not breastfeeding her newborn in front of her mil & all the other visitors!  I am truly speechless.

 

2. And yeah, the baby is always sleeping if grandma stops by, even if she texted first to ask if it was a good time to swing by.

Wait!  She lets grandma stop by whenever . . . and grandma doesn't even have to text first!   I'm guessing the dil interprets those texts as grandma asking permission to drop by.  If grandma wants the baby to be awake, then she should ask whether the baby is awake.  Either way it doesn't sound like anyone is limiting her contact with the baby.

 

3. It's entirely possible there is more to the story, of course. But I don't think so. It sounds to me like the "germs-around-the-baby" paranoia gone to excess. You are basing this opinion on the parts your hairdresser chose to share with you?  The definition of "more to the story" is that the important parts haven't been shared.  By definition, you can't know whether or not there is more.

 

4. I do believe in the "dirty vaccine" of some exposures. Obviously, not if your child is medically fragile, but if they are healthy, their immune system is *supposed* to see germs, so it can say, "Make immunities! That's a baddie we have to look out for!" I agree, but it's not our baby . . . or grandma's baby.  It's not anyone's call, but the momma's!

 

I would like to amend my initial statement.  Instead of

"The dil sounds extreme, but I'm guessing there's a whole lot more to the story,"

I now say,

"The mil sounds like a piece of work, but I'm guessing there's a whole lot more to the story!"

 

Quill, I know you are very involved with your extended family in a loving, caregiving capacity.  Not everyone has that kind of family or that kind of grandma.  Any brand new mom who lets her mil drop by whenever is a saint in my book.  Your hairdresser should stop complaining and gossiping or she's going to damage her relationship with her son and his family.  I feel very sorry for the dil.

[kewb]

I think to each his/her own.  I know some people who felt this way when their babies were born and didn't let anyone near.  I ddin't get to meet my cousins baby until he was 3 months old because they were told to keep people away. 

 

No skin off my nose either way.  I will respect the wishes of the parents and patiently wait and smile and nod.

 

 

[FriedClams]

I respect those here with different birth experiences and medical issues, so please don't think I'm ignoring them. My response here is based on a healthy baby and the assumption that the grandmother isn't a dangerous hazard...

 

To me it sounds like a new mom who will Germ-x baby at every chance and knows all things baby. I think the current culture of "What to Expect" and older first time moms completely disregards the wisdom and experience of older moms, grandmothers and MILs. Yes - some are wacky - but most have real world experience before the invent of Mothers Day Out, shopping cart protectors, and cub holders on strollers. And sadly, I think when these new moms figure out (by baby 2 or 3) that their moms and MIL arent idiots, many bridges have already been burned.

 

Yes, a baby is the full purview and reaponsibity of the parents, but a family is often more than that. This is a big deal to grandparents and to disregard that is selfish and hurtful to the child in the long run.

 

I laugh now that Im sure I was similarly shortsighted in not realizing with baby 1 that I wasn't the first woman to ever give birth or face the challenges of being a new mom, and that healthy babies are pretty resilient. We laugh about a time I had to take my 6 week old to the ER because, after a nasty fall (yes, at 6 weeks, in a car seat no less) I didn't deem my brother a "real" doctor.... Sadly the ER guy was a friend of his from med school - who graduated after my brother! LOL!!! New moms are crazy - myself included!! I just hope when she has 3 little ones she'll be hoping for back up that it's not too late.

[beaners]

 

To me it sounds like a new mom who will Germ-x baby at every chance and knows all things baby. I think the current culture of "What to Expect" and older first time moms completely disregards the wisdom and experience of older moms, grandmothers and MILs. Yes - some are wacky - but most have real world experience before the invent of Mothers Day Out, shopping cart protectors, and cub holders on strollers. And sadly, I think when these new moms figure out (by baby 2 or 3) that their moms and MIL arent idiots, many bridges have already been burned.

 

This is the kind of attitude I was talking about when I said that I hate the way people dismiss mothers because they don't have "enough" or the "right" experience.  What if someone makes the same decisions with their fourth child that they did with their first? All of a sudden that silly new mom decision must have merit, right? The condescending "come back to me in a few years, you silly little thing," spiel sets my teeth on edge. I know that when you say it, you mean well. You know what your own experience was like, and think that's probably how it must be for other moms too. But I hate how little respect our culture has for new mothers, and this is part of that.

[m0mmaBuck]

I didn't let people visit until the kids were 2 wks old. That included friends, relatives, co-workers...  I also didn't take the babies anywhere besides their own doctors' appts. Why? Both were born during flu season.  DD was 6 wks early.  We have had several friends and family members with very sick babies (either born that way or acquired). And we wanted time with the babies before the whirlwind of out-of-town visitors hit, expecting the house to be perfect and meals to be cooked and tour guides to be available.

 

babies were ours, not the property of the world, so that was our decision to make.

[Penelope]

This is the kind of attitude I was talking about when I said that I hate the way people dismiss mothers because they don't have "enough" or the "right" experience. What if someone makes the same decisions with their fourth child that they did with their first? All of a sudden that silly new mom decision must have merit, right? The condescending "come back to me in a few years, you silly little thing," spiel sets my teeth on edge. I know that when you say it, you mean well. You know what your own experience was like, and think that's probably how it must be for other moms too. But I hate how little respect our culture has for new mothers, and this is part of that.

Yes, and it isn't always true that Mom and MIL know best,because they were likely listening to their pediatricians as many of us today do.

 

If I listened to the grandmothers around me, I would have given bottles very early so DH and great grandma could "bond with the baby" (and made myself uncomfortable by having to pump or having breast feeding problems as a result), let them continue to try to soothe the baby when I could see from their cues that they were clearly hungry (people who have not cared for babies in a while may forget these things or not be in tune), giving pacifiers when they needed to nurse, started solids at two or three months, and on and on.

 

I am so puzzled that people still think that the baby needs to bond with anyone other than mom or dad in the first few weeks. There is nothing wrong with others holding the baby, of course, and getting the pictures, but it is mom that needs to be holding baby for a lot of the time and establishing breastfeeding well. Lots of time passing the baby around takes away from that and can even be detrimental to nursing if overdone.

 

As far as texting and then having baby be asleep, newborns are only awake for a few minutes at a time, so I can totally see that happening.

[BlsdMama]

This is the kind of attitude I was talking about when I said that I hate the way people dismiss mothers because they don't have "enough" or the "right" experience.  What if someone makes the same decisions with their fourth child that they did with their first? All of a sudden that silly new mom decision must have merit, right? The condescending "come back to me in a few years, you silly little thing," spiel sets my teeth on edge. I know that when you say it, you mean well. You know what your own experience was like, and think that's probably how it must be for other moms too. But I hate how little respect our culture has for new mothers, and this is part of that.

 

Love this and couldn't agree more.  There is a reason new moms are hormonal and a little beserk... We're meant to be protective.  This relaxed "babies don't break" attitude drives me nuts, really nuts.  They do.  They break all the time.  And I love that we steadfastly protect the right of everyone to "bond" with the baby and yet we want to see mom up and acting like normal immediately after giving birth.  I'm *that* woman that is up and moving around an hour after birth, but I will say that after having 11 babies, I no longer believe that's normal, healthy, or good.  Bodies need to rest and recover.  BONDING should be in the form of a strong nursing relationship - nurturing and protecting that milk supply, putting energy into recovery and making milk, not getting dressed and behaving hospitably.

 

As for MiniVan Mom's post.  You might be my new best friend.  Just maybe.

 

Any woman who throws her daughter or daughter in law under a bus, sniping to ANYONE (good friend or not) about her decision making process regarding her newborn is ... Well, I'll not say it.  But she's suspect.  Highly suspect.

 

I'd be incredibly hurt if my mom or mil was sniping to anyone behind my back about my ability to make a good judgement call on what my baby needs.  What happened to respecting parental judgement?  And, ironically, we complain all the time about people making poor decisions regarding the health and well-being of their children, yet when they err on the side of safety and health, then we question that?  Oh goodness.

 

Having had 11 newborns, I feel that the way I didn't guard my body, my nursing relationship, my health and welfare after labor, feeling the need to let everyone see and touch baby, go out right away, etc., was silly and short sighted.  There's a truly experienced mama's point of view and how condescending would it sound if I said, "Well, you've only had three, or only had five, or seven, so you don't know what you're talking about... Some day, maybe."   I've had *my 11* children.  I don't know what's best for Janie's firstborn!!!!!

 

[MinivanMom]

Love this and couldn't agree more.  There is a reason new moms are hormonal and a little beserk... We're meant to be protective.  This relaxed "babies don't break" attitude drives me nuts, really nuts.  They do.  They break all the time.  And I love that we steadfastly protect the right of everyone to "bond" with the baby and yet we want to see mom up and acting like normal immediately after giving birth.  I'm *that* woman that is up and moving around an hour after birth, but I will say that after having 11 babies, I no longer believe that's normal, healthy, or good.  Bodies need to rest and recover.  BONDING should be in the form of a strong nursing relationship - nurturing and protecting that milk supply, putting energy into recovery and making milk, not getting dressed and behaving hospitably.

 

As for MiniVan Mom's post.  You might be my new best friend.  Just maybe.

 

Any woman who throws her daughter or daughter in law under a bus, sniping to ANYONE (good friend or not) about her decision making process regarding her newborn is ... Well, I'll not say it.  But she's suspect.  Highly suspect.

 

I'd be incredibly hurt if my mom or mil was sniping to anyone behind my back about my ability to make a good judgement call on what my baby needs.  What happened to respecting parental judgement?  And, ironically, we complain all the time about people making poor decisions regarding the health and well-being of their children, yet when they err on the side of safety and health, then we question that?  Oh goodness.

 

Having had 11 newborns, I feel that the way I didn't guard my body, my nursing relationship, my health and welfare after labor, feeling the need to let everyone see and touch baby, go out right away, etc., was silly and short sighted.  There's a truly experienced mama's point of view and how condescending would it sound if I said, "Well, you've only had three, or only had five, or seven, so you don't know what you're talking about... Some day, maybe."   I've had *my 11* children.  I don't know what's best for Janie's firstborn!!!!!

 

Yes, this!  A person who gossips always tells you much more about themselves.

 

I was thinking about this thread in terms of homeschooling.  Imagine if we went through this thread and replaced the phrases "wash hands", "limit contact", and "hand sanitizer" with "homeschooling".  Instead of, "These clueless young moms with their germ obsession; kids did just fine being passed around to all the relatives in my day; these young moms should be learning from those of us who are older and wiser; they'll regret keeping their newborns in later," it would be, "These clueless young moms with their homeschooling; kids did just fine in public school in my day; these young moms should be learning from those of us who are older and wiser; they'll regret homeschooling later"!  The hive would have a collective fit!  We would talk about respect and boundaries, about parental rights and how to pass the bean dip.  Nobody would suggest that the relatives ought to have a vote in how our children are educated or that we should learn from the wisdom of grandma by putting the kids in public school.  Why is this different?!

 

Does having respect and good boundaries mean only respecting choices we agree with?  Does it mean that people ought to have respect for us, but we don't need to have respect for them?  Were we "real" mothers when we gave birth to our first, but our daughter-in-law (sister-in-law, niece, cousin, etc) isn't a "real" mother yet since she doesn't have our experience?  Do we all really think that people who make different choices than ourselves must be ignorant or uneducated or inexperienced?  Is that really the kind of person you want to be? (general you)  We are better than that! (general we)  We can all be better than that!

 

MinivanMom:

Who doesn't make people wash their hands around her newborns, but will defend to her death the right of other mothers to make a different choice!

[MinivanMom]

*snip*

What kind of incredibly selfish person puts her will/right to see a baby over the mother's sense of well-being or the baby's health if mom feels there is a reason to keep baby safe for a few days.

 

*snip*

 

I am so sorry about your daughter.  I can't even imagine the pain of losing a child.

 

I think there can be some selfishness when babies are born.  When we are excited, it's easy to forget that they are fragile.  It's easy to forget that the *moment* isn't about us.  It's about the baby; it's about the momma; it's about the new little family.  Parties can wait.  Extended family can wait.  We can wait.  I hope that I can be that kind of loving, supportive grandma someday.

[mommymilkies]

I agree with you, Kelly.  Honestly, it's not my place to say the DIL is being extreme or mean.  There's probably more to the story, but it is *their* baby and *their* choice. Honestly, my 3rd child was given so many horrible germs (croup, resp infections, etc.) from my SIL right after birth until we finally moved away.  With #4, we lived far enough that nobody came to see her for like 2 weeks and she didn't get nasty germs even with dh teaching.  Then with #5, SIL came with her dd again and that kid ALWAYS has some horrible illness and ALWAYS says she's not sick.  Guess who got sick?  That's right, the baby who was losing weight from having a bad lip tie and reflux.  I was soooooo mad.  I won't be having any more kids (dh got a vas), but I would even contemplate giving birth a few states away to avoid that one again.  

[kahlanne]

With #1 I was in labor for 36 long hours. It was a difficult deliver with my mom present. Our extended family was allowed to visit in the hospital with all my children. With #2, it was a shorter birth but at almost 11 lbs, natural birth, I wouldn't say easy. However we went to the mall on the way home from being discharged from hospital. We only went to two stores and I carried him close to keep people at bay. #3 was an easier birth with us coming home and visitors later that week. #4 was difficult delivery, I pushed and pushed but dd was sideways unbeknownst to nurse. Doc was delayed and was angry at nurse when he realized. He had to turn her while I was fully dialated. Very painful! With her, we had planned a big 4th of July party at our house before I went into labor. We scaled it back to a few close friends and relatives. Dh stopped by target on way home to pick up a few things as we were cooking as well. I enjoyed that time. #5 was an easier delivery but I lost lots of blood. The next day when I was up to walk, I passed out and the docs had trouble reviving me. It had to have many tests ran on my heart etc but in the end, they associated it with blood loss and spike in blood pressure. I never before had high bp. When we were able to go home, I we stopped by my eldest dd soccer game. Wouldn't change it for the world. #6 was an emergency c section so I had no choice but come straight home. My mom stayed to help and a week later 7 members of my family came to stay with us to meet Elsa. I breastfed all but #5. I tried desperately to bf him but he wasn't getting enough and lost too much weight. Finally we had to bottlefeed. I was devastated. I felt like a failure because my idea of what had to be beat for him wasn't happening. Took me a while to realize that I needed to alter my view of what is best based on the circumstances. He is a strong vibrant 4 yr old boy that never gets sick in spite of not being bf. Sometimes it is beat to loosen up and not put to much pressure on ourselves as moms to do everything perfectly. Yes, babies are fragile but they are also very adaptable. I am not saying that my way is the best but that as a mom, WE always want to prove to others and ourselves how serious we take our responsibility but leave out time to just enjoy. You can imagine I would never be one to withhold my child from its grandparents out of unwarranted fear. We are not guaranteed days on this earth and God forbid they be denied meeting their pride and joy and something did happen to child. My beatfriends baby passed away a day after birth. Both grandparents were able to hold and love this child for only a short visit in hospital yet it is a memory that they will always cherish. They had no idea it would be their one and only memory. Bonding can happen anytime between parents, children, relatives, etc but only if you still have time on this earth. It's all a guess as to when each person's time is up. Just something to consider.