s/o of the Christianity and Judaism thread

[HRAAB]

I was reading through the other thread because religion fascinates me and followed some of the links. This one led to some questions? Baptists and Assemblies of God do not believe in original sin? I have read the Orthodox view of ancestral sin but rather assumed that other Christian denominations had some understanding of original sin. If there is no original sin then from what are you being saved. Why did Jesus have to die?

 

Original sin was the first sticking point in Christianity for me and a hard one to get around because it is (to me at the time) inextricably linked to Jesus' death on the cross. What was the understanding of original sin before Augustine in the early church?

[violamama]

That's weird. The site is saying that imperfection is different from sin, and then with this redefinition of the words "original sin" pronounces Baptists non-believers in that doctrine. Which is total hooey. The site has an agenda, but I didn't stick around to figure out what. Why is a Jewish library commenting on Baptist theology in such a stretching-truth way anyway?

 

If you'd like to know what Baptists are like doctrinally, listen to John Piper or read some of the things he wrote. I will say the Bible says Jesus was no "Plan B" but that he knew how things would go and intended to be our savior "before the foundations of the earth" for the glory of God. If you are stuck on that point, it may be helpful to read some of these if you're interested:

http://www.desiringgod.org/resource-library/articles/what-is-the-biblical-evidence-for-original-sin

http://www.monergism.com/_original_sin_depravity_infect_1.php

 

HTH.

[Seasider]

Um, John Piper does not represent ALL Baptists. In fact, IIRC, Baptists are historically known for their position on free will. Piper is firmly in the election camp. There has been a rise of the Reformed Baptist in recent years, but that's not the historical position (the way I understand it).

 

Ishki, it's really hard to get a firm position on Baptist doctrine under the umbrella term "Baptist." There are many flavors within the denomination. Try looking individually at Southern Baptist, American Baptist, Free Will Baptist - that'll get you started.

[violamama]

Fair enough Seasider, but he represents my flavor of Baptist fairly well. Do some of those other Baptists deny original sin or the need for salvation? If so, why would they need baptism? Seems illogical.

[Chelli]

I'm Church of Christ and we don't believe in original sin. Adam and Eve only passed along death which exists because we live in a fallen world now, but they did not pass along their sins.

 

ETA: I just read through the original thread and we believe the exact same thing as the Orthodox church's view on original sin that was linked in that thread.

 

As for what Jesus needed to die for....all of my other sins (lying, pride, gluttony, etc.).

[albeto]

I'm Church of Christ and we don't believe in original sin. Adam and Eve only passed along death which exists because we live in a fallen world now, but they did not pass along their sins.

 

ETA: I just read through the original thread and we believe the exact same thing as the Orthodox church's view on original sin that was linked in that thread.

 

As for what Jesus needed to die for....all of my other sins (lying, pride, gluttony, etc.).

 

 

The Roman Catholic theology of Original Sin doesn't include the idea that each individual holds some guilt or responsibility for the sins of Adam and Eve. In other words, they didn't "pass along their sins." Each person is incapable of being naturally sinless because the nature of reality changed such that humanity no longer has the opportunity to know God face to face and make all the right choices, as Adam and Eve did (literally or figuratively, with the exception of Mary). So in that respect, the Original Sin changed the reality of the world such that Jesus died for your sins due to the event known as "the original sin." Without that change in reality - sin entering the world - what function would Jesus' death and resurrection provide?

[HRAAB]

Um, John Piper does not represent ALL Baptists. In fact, IIRC, Baptists are historically known for their position on free will. Piper is firmly in the election camp. There has been a rise of the Reformed Baptist in recent years, but that's not the historical position (the way I understand it).

 

Ishki, it's really hard to get a firm position on Baptist doctrine under the umbrella term "Baptist." There are many flavors within the denomination. Try looking individually at Southern Baptist, American Baptist, Free Will Baptist - that'll get you started.

 

I knew there were different Baptist congregations, but I didn't realize beliefs could vary so much. I've never heard of a Reformed Baptist. However, whether a free will Baptist or Reformed Baptist, wouldn't one still believe in original sin?

 

I think my bil is an American Baptist, and is definitely not reformed. I will do some more reading.

 

Thanks.

[Seasider]

As to original sin, I can only speak with reference to my own knowledge of Southern Baptist and Reformed Baptist Beliefs. Those sects of Baptist definitely do believe in original sin and the need for salvation. I could say I suppose other Baptist groups do as well, following violamama's logic; but since I am not completely familiar with their doctrinal nuances, I couldn't give you a definite answer.

[Ellie]

I was reading through the other thread because religion fascinates me and followed some of the links. This one led to some questions? Baptists and Assemblies of God do not believe in original sin? I have read the Orthodox view of ancestral sin but rather assumed that other Christian denominations had some understanding of original sin. If there is no original sin then from what are you being saved. Why did Jesus have to die?

 

Original sin was the first sticking point in Christianity for me and a hard one to get around because it is (to me at the time) inextricably linked to Jesus' death on the cross. What was the understanding of original sin before Augustine in the early church?

 

 

Most Protestants do not believe in Original Sin. They believe Jesus saved us from the sins we commit all by ourselves (because all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God).

[Ellie]

What was the understanding of original sin before Augustine in the early church?

 

 

Why would it be different before Augustine??

 

The Catholic Church has not changed its doctrine regarding, well, anything, including Original Sin.

[Onceuponatime]

About Churches of Christ, the standard teaching is that Original Sin is the doctrine that all people are born in sin and are sinful from birth, which is why it would be necessary to baptize infants. They reject this idea and believe that sin is done from out of knowledge of right and wrong. So young children are considered innocent until they understand and are accountable for their actions.. They tend to get a little anxious for a child's soul if they haven't been baptized by the time they are 13 or "the age of accountability."

 

Adam and Eve are supposed to have introduced the knowledge of right and wrong into the world when they chose to eat of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Death would be because people were banished from the garden where the tree of life is.

[HRAAB]

 

Why would it be different before Augustine??

 

The Catholic Church has not changed its doctrine regarding, well, anything, including Original Sin.

 

My understanding is that the doctrine of original sin was developed by Irenaeus and it was further developed by Augustine as a response to Pelagius. I do not believe that the early church (1st century) had the same understanding of original sin as is held today. The understanding of the doctrine of original sin was more fully expressed with Augustine and has developed over the centuries. I know the belief in original sin comes from St., but the first Christians would have had no understanding of the term 'original sin'.

 

Since it is something I don't believe, it's really neither here nor there. I was interested in how many Protestants view original sin today and how the doctrine developed in the first few centuries of the church.

[Seasider]

Most Protestants do not believe in Original Sin. They believe Jesus saved us from the sins we commit all by ourselves (because all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God).

 

Sorry, y'all, I don't mean to appear to be a troublemaker, but this is another blanket statement with which I must disagree. I know many protestants that do believe in original sin as well as imputed sin, many in the non-denominational evangelical churches and in reformed baptistry.

 

I have linked an article that you may find helpful, Ishki, as you sort through these terms. Consider the source, John Piper is a Reformed Baptist. Other denominations may not see things the same way, but I think this article explains the way original and imputed sin are viewed by some Protestants.

 

http://www.desiringg...and-imputed-sin

 

I think it's an interesting topic to explore - I haven't looked at a denominational comparison of this aspect of theology, it's just something I've always been taught and accepted.

 

ETA _ Hey violamama, I just realized my link is very similar to one of the links you posted! Sorry if it's redundant. Ishki, take note that both articles credit Jonathan Edwards, a figure of the Puritan movement.

[HRAAB]

Sorry, y'all, I don't mean to appear to be a troublemaker, but this is another blanket statement with which I must disagree. I know many protestants that do believe in original sin as well as imputed sin, many in the non-denominational evangelical churches and in reformed baptistry.

 

I have linked an article that you may find helpful, Ishki, as you sort through these terms. Consider the source, John Piper is a Reformed Baptist. Other denominations may not see things the same way, but I think this article explains the way original and imputed sin are viewed by some Protestants.

 

http://www.desiringg...and-imputed-sin

 

I think it's an interesting topic to explore - I haven't looked at a denominational comparison of this aspect of theology, it's just something I've always been taught and accepted.

 

ETA _ Hey violamama, I just realized my link is very similar to one of the links you posted! Sorry if it's redundant. Ishki, take note that both articles credit Jonathan Edwards, a figure of the Puritan movement.

 

 

Thank you for responding. I always assumed (wrongly obviously) that all Christians believed in original sin. At some point sin had to enter the world. That would be The Fall. Whether it's passed on by father to children or grace was lost and changed all of creation, sin came into the world. That's traced back to Adam, and is what I call original sin. I guess I shouldn't be surprised by how confusing it is since there seems to be many different understandings of Adam's fall.

 

As I said before, it's not something I believe. I shut the door on that long ago, but I'm still very interested in how different faiths view Adam's sin and its effect on humanity.

 

I've bookmarked the different sites. If I get brave, I might ask my bil, the Baptist minister. :tongue_smilie: Unfortunately he would rather argue than explain, and that doesn't make for a pleasant family gathering. Much safer on the internet.

[Ellie]

Sorry, y'all, I don't mean to appear to be a troublemaker, but this is another blanket statement with which I must disagree. I know many protestants that do believe in original sin as well as imputed sin, many in the non-denominational evangelical churches and in reformed baptistry.

 

I said that *most* do not. That isn't a blanket statement. A blanket statement would be that NONE of them do.

 

I can tell you that Assemblies of God, Southern Baptist, and Calvary Chapel affiliates do not believe in "Original Sin" the way that the Catholic Church does. ("Southern Baptist" is not the same as American Baptist, or Freewill Baptist, or Reformed Baptist, or any other group with "Baptist" in the name.)

[abacus2]

I said that *most* do not. That isn't a blanket statement. A blanket statement would be that NONE of them do.

 

I can tell you that Assemblies of God, Southern Baptist, and Calvary Chapel affiliates do not believe in "Original Sin" the way that the Catholic Church does. ("Southern Baptist" is not the same as American Baptist, or Freewill Baptist, or Reformed Baptist, or any other group with "Baptist" in the name.)

 

Can you please explain? This the first I've heard anyone say Southern Baptists don't believe in Original Sin. What are the differences?

[Shahrazad]

Growing up Episcopalian, I was taught that the Original Sin was forgiven by Jesus' death and no one after that had that sin upon them. In my current faith, we believe that Adam and Eve repented and asked God to forgive them after they sinned and He did so no sin was passed on to subsequent generations. I'm surprised to hear that there are Christian denominations that did not have the concept of original sin. These discussions are interesting as I'm always learning more about topics that I thought I knew well.

[Seasider]

 

 

Can you please explain? This the first I've heard anyone say Southern Baptists don't believe in Original Sin. What are the differences?

 

http://sbctoday.com/2012/05/30/an-introduction-to-“a-statement-of-the-traditional-southern-baptist-understanding-of-god’s-plan-of-salvationâ€/

 

Scroll on down to Article Two.