How many of you use WTM rec's exclusively vs. using TOG, MFW and others?

[Holly IN]

I am curious. I have been using TOG for a long time due to working full time and homeschool full time with 3 kids. If I wasn't working I def. would be using WTM exclusively. So how many of you just use WTM rec's esp for history. Why do you use WTM rec's vs something already prepped like TOG? I sincerely would like to know not for debating as to what is better or not. That is not what I am asking. I am asking why due to one is all done for you vs one is not. I would love to use WTM rec's exclusively but I can't as I have no time to do so. I do believe WTM rec's are superior to other programs. Again this is not up for debate but for discussion. I do not want to see this thread shut down. ;) thanks!

[regentrude]

For history, I am not using WTM exclusively, and I am not using prepackaged programs like TOG either.

 

I take the philosophy from WTM, the idea of studying Great books integrated with the history of the period, and many of the literature suggestions. I use the history spine recommended in one of the older editions (Short History of Western Civ by Harrison), but I do not follow the precise format, and I use many other resources, especially lots of Teaching Company lectures. I prefer to tailor my own program to my students' interests. I want the flexibility of my own approach and do not want to be stuck having my students do the busy work that would be part of a predesigned curriculum.

 

Concerning other subjects than the humanities: while I consider the WTM approach to history and English very good, I do not find their suggestions for mathematics and science to be of the same quality. My kids need a mastery based, more rigorous math curriculum, and as a scientist, I do not find that the WTM approach to science will give the level of college preparatory science education that I want for my students. I have serious issues with the science suggestions for the upper grades.

[Holly IN]

I agree with the science and math as I do not use their recs for those two main subject areas. Totally agree there. WTM is wonderful for the Humanities side of education. I do wish there was a way to use a different science curriculam and still use the philosophy of WTM with it. So for ex: I use Pearson Biology program. I am trying to figure how to use the WTM philosophy of their science section in the book to Pearson's Biology (Miller Levine with Macaw on cover)

[regentrude]

I agree with the science and math as I do not use their recs for those two main subject areas. Totally agree there. WTM is wonderful for the Humanities side of education. I do wish there was a way to use a different science curriculam and still use the philosophy of WTM with it. So for ex: I use Pearson Biology program. I am trying to figure how to use the WTM philosophy of their science section in the book to Pearson's Biology (Miller Levine with Macaw on cover)

 

I do not think one can, since the approach is geared towards humanities.

One important aspect that is missing in the science approach is the understanding that science education needs to develop skills. It is not sufficient to read books about physics and talk and write essays about physics, but the student needs to master problem solving. Approaching science from the original papers is not useful: first of all, the target audience of the original works were other scientists with thorough scientific training, and second, original works do not teach any problem solving skills. In addition to problem solving, a thorough conceptual discussion is necessary, something the recommended self-study guides do not provide.

 

I believe that science needs to be approached fundamentally different than literature and history, and that it is not appropriate to transfer methods form the humanities.

[Nscribe]

Take a look at Susan Wise Bauer's video about high school on these forums. She wrote the book and I would guess she would tell you the WTM is a guide, not a mandate.

[Holly IN]

Take a look at Susan Wise Bauer's video about high school on these forums. She wrote the book and I would guess she would tell you the WTM is a guide, not a mandate.

I am very familiar with her book and I have all of them. :) I know everything about WTM and her philosophy. ;) All I am asking is why use TOG or other " done" programs vs WTM recs. Just wanting to have a discussion about this. I use TOG due to my full time job. Right now I am doing a lot of thinking as things may change this fall re to my job and kids schooling (yes will continue to homeschool but may have to make changes). Just want to have a discussion about this.

[Nscribe]

Ah, gotcha! I don't personally use TOG, MFW or any of those. But, talking with other mom's along the way the reasons have varied from spiritual issues to just feeling having it all set out in an organized way works for them as a family. Sometimes schooling multiple kids, they like having something they can feel is tried/true and will free them up a bit.

 

We use a variety of things and are influenced by a variety of educational philosophies. If forced to nail it down I would say we are WTM with many philosophically consistent deviations that cater to Dd's math/science and theatre strengths. In other words, I would tap dance around the question because it really just is a what works for us answer.

 

I appreciated that video post by Susan. It says a lot when the book's writer says she would do things differently in hindsight.

 

I am sure you will get lots of feedback from those who do use. It will be neat to watch the discussion.

[Donna T.]

I have always wanted to follow WTM for High School history and literature. I began collecting resources that I wanted to use for my high schoolers before my kids were even born! We have a house full of Great Books and primary history resources. But, now as my oldest is heading into 9th grade, I feel a lack of confidence in an ability to pull these resources together. We have had a somewhat difficult year this year due various stress in the family. So, I feel like we are behind and my son will continue with some things this summer that I had hoped he would be done with by this point. I don't think we can afford a year of figuring it out. Also, one thing that slowed my son down this year was waiting on me to focus on helping him to accomplish particular things. He is a morning person and very capable. I don't want him waiting on me this next year! We will be traveling to Ukraine for an adoption and then will have a non-English speaker to integrate into our family. All that to say that he needs to independent as much as possible.

 

I thought maybe we would use TOG but I really have to be realistic about what I will be able to do, so I think we are going to go with MFW. I like the content. I like that he can work independently with a follow up meeting with me each week. I know TOG is set up that way to a degree, but because I feel behind right now, I don't think we can afford time to invest in the learning curve that it would take for us to use TOG.

 

So, for me, it has come down to needing a course of study that he can run with rather than waiting on me to direct him. I won't be able to put the planning time in this summer so that we could be ready for the fall. BUT, I do plan to take a little more time to pray over this decision, so I may decide that I can do it!!

[Julie in MN]

I am curious. I have been using TOG for a long time due to working full time and homeschool full time with 3 kids. If I wasn't working I def. would be using WTM exclusively.

I started homeschooling with a 10th grader, and at the time there was no MFW high school, I don't think there was TOG high school, and SWB hadn't had a high schooler yet so her outline for high school seemed pretty vague and untested.

 

I did what a lot of homeschoolers were doing, and that was pulling things together myself similar to what a lot of WTMers do now. I'd take someone else's ideas and combine them with another bunch of ideas that looked good. So I feel like I know what exclusive WTM use would look like at my house. And it wasn't pretty.

 

The thing is that I was pulling in too much. And I didn't know what a typical kid would/should do in a typical hour's time -- maybe she wasn't accomplishing enough, or understanding in enough depth? Outlining for her was too detailed, her notebooking might be on things that she didn't have the life experience to realize were not important, and discussion too often went in directions I didn't go in my own mind and ended up taking on the general theme of, "What do you want me to say, mom?"

 

Whenever something just didn't seem to be working (e.g. a Beautiful Feet book supposed to teach about an historical time period but she wasn't noticing the time period at all when reading), I'd change directions. Or, I'd re-do something in another way (used those Homeschool in the Woods timeline figures to death).

 

In the end, she only got through "most" of the Bible, and we had to jump over some pretty big gaps in history, and I had odds 'n ends that made giving credits a headache.

 

Now that I'm homeschooling using just one "program" (MFW of course), I have a "skeleton" or a "framework" that matches my priorities. I don't actually see any fluff in there, but I do sometimes have different goals or needs, or want to fit in outside experiences like book club and dual credit classes, so I sub in and out. But with a framework, we get to the things that are important to me and we get to the end, not waylaid. And my son gets to be different than me and different than either of his siblings, because I have sort-of an overview of what's going on and am more comfortable tailoring to him.

 

I don't find homeschooling a high schooler to be easy in any case, and at times it's the hardest thing I could imagine doing. But it's a lot easier when I have a solid "plan" made by an outside source that I trust, who has tested the daily requirements on hundreds of high schoolers and determined them to be reasonable and yet of high standards. That helps me when I want to teach everything and feel like I'm getting nowhere. And it helps him, because sometimes he feels afloat without an anchor, being the only high schooler in the house and not having anything to compare himself with.

 

Julie

 

P.S. All those homeschoolers I knew when I started 11 years ago have gone on to adulthood, and although none of the ones I knew then were uber-scholarly at home, some are now in good careers or working on their Ph.D.s. That reassures me, as well, that it's better for me that I don't try to do it myself and cram in everything I can think of.

[Candid]

I thought maybe we would use TOG but I really have to be realistic about what I will be able to do, so I think we are going to go with MFW. I like the content. I like that he can work independently with a follow up meeting with me each week. I know TOG is set up that way to a degree, but because I feel behind right now, I don't think we can afford time to invest in the learning curve that it would take for us to use TOG.

 

 

 

I would encourage you to consider TOG. It sounds like your son is the right type of student for Tapestry. And while I don't think anyone believes me, at the high school level Tapestry is really easy to implement. Get your books in before the year begins, print out the student activity pages, maps, and evaluations you want to use and have those organized to go (I spiral behind everything into a notebook). You read about a half hour of background information during the week and then lead the discussions. Yes, the discussions take some getting used to and I do recommend watching the video on leading Socratic discussions, but they are mostly scripted so you don't have to work with them in advance, just open and go.

[Candid]

I started homeschooling with a 10th grader, and at the time there was no MFW high school, I don't think there was TOG high school, and SWB hadn't had a high schooler yet so her outline for high school seemed pretty vague and untested.

 

 

 

If Tapestry was available, then it had all four levels from the beginning. She actually designed it as high school down because that is where she felt she was missing out in providing her children with the exclusive prep education she had received.

 

The literature did receive a bump up when they moved to the redesigned series about 7 or 8 years ago.

 

However, ten years ago or so, Tapestry was a much smaller company, less likely to be on your radar.

[Donna T.]

 

 

I would encourage you to consider TOG. It sounds like your son is the right type of student for Tapestry. And while I don't think anyone believes me, at the high school level Tapestry is really easy to implement. Get your books in before the year begins, print out the student activity pages, maps, and evaluations you want to use and have those organized to go (I spiral behind everything into a notebook). You read about a half hour of background information during the week and then lead the discussions. Yes, the discussions take some getting used to and I do recommend watching the video on leading Socratic discussions, but they are mostly scripted so you don't have to work with them in advance, just open and go.

 

 

 

Thank you, Candid! You do make it sound straightforward! One problem that would solve for me, I think, is that he is literally begging to cover the Modern Times in depth. MFW would require him to start HS with the Ancients. He likes the look of the program but he doesn't want to start HS with that time period. I don't want to high jack the thread, so I may send you a message if that is o.k.! I have been told you can start TOG with any unit.

[Kathie in VA]

I too wanted to follow the WTM way of doing LA and history. I planned well but implemented poorly. We also had many outside interruptions to our school so it was difficult to get things *done*. Then my oldest began questioning all I gave her to do and doubts rose .... so I began to realize that maybe a curriculum with specific assignments would be clearer and eliminate the doubt that I was assigning too much. We still had trouble but at least I knew it wasn't due to poor planning on my part. We have bounced around a bit with curriculums and co-ops over the years, trying to find the right blend of classical approach, learning/rigger, enjoyment, growth of skills, and the hardest part ... time for life in addition to homeschooling.

 

We are up to 5 kiddos and are now in a new co-op that uses TOG, CW, BJU for science, and Lingua Latina. I still use FLL at home and I'm trying to get the group to incorporate logic as I agree with WTM that we need it. Now that I'm using TOG I do see it's benefits in that *I* have things laid out for *me*. I'm still not convinced it is better than just following WTM though. I love both in that they keep my younger ones on the similar topics as my older ones. With WTM I got to add but with TOG I find I need to cut or hope that the class leaders cuts enough... we all tend to assign too much! Then again I guess that could be the case with a WTM approach also. Anyway, we need accountability .. it seems to get things done and I just haven't found anyone willing to do a WTM co-op!

[simonpqqe]

I agree with the science and math as I do not use their recs for those two main subject areas.

 

[Alice]

I don’t know that I use the recs exclusively, I’m not sure anyone does. But I don’t use a prepped curriculum for history and science if that’s mostly what you mean. For me, it’s because I enjoy the planning and I like pulling in different sources. I’m a bit obsessive about things like list-checking so I worry that if I had something like TOG I’d stress too much about not getting it all done or not checking every box.

Which would kind of defeat the decreased stress of having it laid out for you.

 

I also am naturally a tweaker, so I figured I’d end up tweaking any program I picked so better just to make my own.

 

I live in an area with great resources (libraries, field trip opportunities, co-ops) so it’s fairly easy to pull together lots of options.

 

It’s cheaper than buying something like TOG (if you have the access to a good library).

 

I have youngish kids and have felt like loosely following the recs in WTM has been more than they need right now. As they get older I may find that something different works better for us. Also, next year will be the first year I really try to have two doing full-on history and science. We’ll see how it works, it might be that I find it’s easier to combine them if I had something more laid out for me.

[TravelingChris]

I used the book lists fairly well for my oldest and he got a great education. We supplemented with TOC courses. For my next one, I had to change because of her health issues and also she had learning issues of a very specific kind that made it necessary to spend double time on math and science, thereby reducing time for other subjects. My last one is doing a bare minimum English and somewhat more than minimum history. For her I will be picking short great works of literature or selections within great works to read. I tried TOG when my 2nd was a freshman but she got very sick and she couldn't keep up and neither could I do that with the third at that time (doing the second rotation).