Using Classical Conversations as Base - Is this Enough?

[tagglelim]

We've signed up to join CC this fall and I keep swaying like a pendulum, back and forth, on how to handle the year. This is in regard only to the history/geography portion as we will definitely be adding our own science program. Anyway, I've seen posts of people using CC as their core and posts that say it isn't enough. I'm wondering if you'd take a look at my thoughts and offer some opinions. Here are the two options:

 

1) Use CC merely as memory work, perhaps reading a blurb to provide context from time to time. Use TOG as my main history/literature/geography source. I love that TOG combines so much together and I'll have two daughters working at different levels - a 4th grader (UG/Some D in Literature) and a 1st grader (LG). Even if I use CC as my base these next couple of years, I think I will eventually end up in TOG for its lovely dialectic and rhetoric work. HOWEVER. I can see myself burning out trying to spend my first year in CC AND enter TOG. I can see myself potentially feeling overwhelmed and essentially getting nothing done. Perhaps I could combat this fear, knowing it and my weakness ahead of time, but it is a concern nonetheless.

 

2) Throw myself into CC. I like memorization to be in context with what we are learning. Also, an attraction here is that we will already be part of CC, so why not use that day at CC and build around it during the week. It would make that day at "school" less incongruous with what we are trying to accomplish at home....less of an intrusion into our week, so to speak. If that makes any sense. I DO think that following the weekly sentences will help hold me accountable and stay on track. Cycle 2 seems to be fairly chronological in its format and does cover the "big" moments in history. It also leaves out a lot, though....am I okay with that? Hmmm. If I were to use CC as my base, I would use the coordinating SOTW chapters along with their respective questions, mapwork, and activities....and, of course, lots of fun extra books and ideas from blogs. Looking at the SOTW chart, we would end up reading 39 sections, whether that be an entire SOTW chapter or just a portion thereof. Is that enough? I know we would miss some events in history, though some of those slots would be filled in Cycle 3 of CC. I guess I need to ask myself if these big moments in history are enough to study....am I okay with exposure rather than wanting them to know everything about that time period. I see women like at Halfahundredacrewoods (is that right?) and it seems wonderful - like a very full year. But then I hear so many posts that say otherwise.

 

For now, I think I would stay on better track if I were to follow CC and add lots of context each week. If I did this, I think it would be just for the next two years. Cycle 1 in CC doesn't seem chronological at all and I would probably ease into TOG then - especially since I would have D level and UG level students by then. Hmmm. Or should I just start TOG now? ARG!!!!

 

Would this be enough???????? I'm sorry. I know this is long and I've rambled. Thank you for bearing with me!

[Micron4]

This fall will be my 3rd year in CC.

 

Last year, I started out just reading SOTW1 straight through, and ended up doing something more similar to your option 2. I found that when I kept my history (SOTW1) separate from the CC history sentences, we ended up doing what felt like double the work. For example, if we were reading about the Egyptians in SOTW, we might be doing a CC sentence about the Romans. DD is then asking about the Romans, and I felt like I needed to give her some context to the sentence and not just be telling her to wait a few months until we get to that chapter. So then we ended up doing an "extra" history lesson that week about the Romans so she could understand her CC sentence better along with the planned history lessons from SOTW. For some families that would be fine, but for us it was just too much, so I felt like just expanding on the CC sentences was more efficient and reliable for us.

 

That being said, I know plenty of families who do SOTW on a different track than the history sentences. I can't say I know anyone who is doing TOG with CC, but I'm sure there are people out there. If you have the time to devote to both, go for it! But it kind of sounds from your post, that you think it will be too much.

 

Do you have the CC foundations guide yet? If so, I recommend looking at the 24 history sentences. Even though there are gaps, it is still a lot of content. If your children learn (with context) those 24 sentences, I venture to say they will know much more about that period of world history than most average adults out there.

 

Just my two cents--YMMV. :001_smile:

[tagglelim]

Thank you for sharing, Micron4 - a lot of what you said really resonated with me.

 

The scenario you presented when first starting out in Cycle 1 is exactly what I wonder about for us next year. I can picture myself feeling the exact same way - like I was attempting two different history programs. Which makes me wonder if I should just take the plunge and jump into CC. How did your year go when you started to follow the topic sentences? Did it flow well then?

 

Thank you for the encouragement - I think I needed to hear I wasn't crazy..that it is okay to focus on 24 topics and know them well.

 

Anyone else that has tried this? Or anyone that disagrees?

 

Thanks!!!!

[wehave8]

Following this post INTENTLY!

Hope to hear more input.

:bigear: :001_unsure:

 

Pam

[fourisenough]

Well, I can't give you BTDT advice, as I will be joining CC this fall for the first time, but I can share what I plan to do. Because I've been homeschooling a while (6-7 years), I know myself fairly well and am confident this will work for us.

 

My 8 year-old (turning 9 in October) daughter has completed SOTW Vol 1 & 2 at home and at co-op (timeline, map work, hands-on projects at co-op and all else at home), so she has a fairly good 'base' of history through the middle ages. This fall, we'll begin Cycle 2 at CC and continue on with our study of SOTW at home and co-op using Vol 3. I have printed the schedule from Half a Hundred Acre Wood which aligns CC with SOTW and Everything You Need to Know...books. Each week, as we're memorizing the history sentence, we'll read the card and use it for context and copywork/dictation. We'll also read the associated SOTW sections/Everything entries to build context (which will hopefully just be reminders of what she has already learned, for the first semester anyway). At a separate time during the day/week, we'll also be reading/learning our SOTW Vol 3 chapter(s), as planned by the co-op teacher. I know I can manage to do all this because I have the SOTW down to a science (after having taught it for so many years...). We listen to the audio in the car when driving all over town. I ask her the discussion questions and have her narrate when working at the kitchen table. She reads the supplemental books/watches videos throughout the week and she takes the test at another time. I would say that, in all, we spend no more than 1 hour per week 'doing' SOTW at home (not including reading extra books). Because we will spend Mondays at CC and Fridays at our co-op, we'll have to be very productive Tuesday-Thursday, which means streamlining our week: no appointments, distractions, or disruptions during that 9a-3p, 3-day 'at home' work time. When I make this conscious decision in advance, this works well for us. My olders are in school and my preschooler will work alongside us.

 

You can see in my signature what other things we plan to do (actually, I need to update it to eliminate a couple things). I've decided use CC exclusively for Latin, geography, timeline, and science. I definitely plan to embrace the 'stick in the sand' methodology: I am NOT going to get bogged down in lapbooks, charming printables, adorable clay creations or creative projects of any sort! My kids do enjoy this stuff, but (1) they get enough of it via their co-op, (2) I don't think they really learn much from it (though it is, admittedly, fun for them), and (3) I'm not a crafty/creative person and I feel smothered by the thought of having to do lots of projects. As I said above, I know myself very well as a teacher/parent!

 

I'll add two 'subjects' to the CC grammar we memorize weekly: vocabulary (Vocabulary from Classical Roots) and poetry (we'll memorize the 6 poems from FLL 4 over the 24 weeks, so 1 per 4 weeks). I'll just pencil them into my Foundations guide and we'll practice them each week just like we do the other CC memory work.

 

Just FYI - the classes my kids will do at co-op include: ballet, SOTW, Nifty 50 (1 semester of states & capitals and 1 semester of US Presidents), and either art or music or perhaps 1 semester of each. They also swim on swim team, which is our "PE".

[Samiam]

I've seen people do it both ways. Some use CC as their main program for history and science,and other's use it as a supplement. I will using it as a supplement while using SOTW/CHOW/History Odyessy as our main History. Like another person, I've been homeschooling for several years now, (this fall will be my 10th year), and I know what I am capable of doing, as far as implementing. For me, using CC as our main program, would be ALOT of effort on my part, to make my mind comfortable that we were doing "enough". Alot of advance planning, alot of getting to the library (our library is mediocre and not convenient for me, so it's a "chore" to get there on a regular basis), alot of research to find "add-on" activities. For me, it's actually easier to have a program, that has it all laid out for me, step by step, and then I can determine which steps I want to take. Oh, I know some will say CC is laid out, but not enough for ME. A history sentence is not "laid out" in my eyes. That's a simple piece of turkey, and then one has to build upon that turkey, add the bread, the lettuce, slice the tomato, spread the hummus, add the mayo, cut it in half, etc to make it a whole, GOOD sandwich. I'd prefer to have the sandwich already made, and then pick off the tomato that I don't want.

 

We'll do the same concept with Science, using Real Science Odyessy Earth.

 

I anticipate CC adding 30-ish minutes to our day on a normal basis, so doing a different science and history is not anything we've not been doing already.

[mrs.m]

I think either option is fine. Really, they will learn a lot from the memory work even if it isn't in context with the other studies. The idea is to give them the pegs and then when they enter the dialectic and rhetoric stages, the have that base for discussion. I suggest you read The Core as Leigh has laid out the methods and reasons for the Foundations method in that book.

[stm4him]

A lot of this advice is coming from people who have never done CC. There is nothing wrong with that as we've all done that, but I can say after 2 1/2 years of CC that what I thought I was going to do each new year and what I actually did were two different things.

 

The first year I tried to do TOG with CC. It was my second year of homeschooling and my oldest was 5. It was too much (combined with other things like being pregnant with my 4th and putting my oldest in OT halfway through the year) so we quit halfway through. We did love TOG but the more kids I added in the harder it was to plan all of that. It is A LOT to plan and put together if you really want to do the whole thing. For me, when I have something all planned out (the whole sandwich), I feel like I have eat the whole sandwich or I've failed. CC for me is very freeing and yet very thorough. I don't have to search and add a bunch of stuff. What we add is a list of living books (found on CC Connected plus any other books on topic I already own....many of which I bought when we were doing TOG or MFW etc.). When/if I feel like it I add in printables from CC Connected but I really don't do that very much at all. We buy coloring books when I come across them online that go with the basic period we're studying. CC sells VP guides and SOTW so many people add that in on some level and though I found CC to be plenty after using it for over a year straight, I have still wrestled with how to fit those in. I think I have finally found a solution which I'll share below.

 

When we came back to CC my oldest was 9. I bought the VP self-paced lit packs that went with 1815-Present thinking they would do self-paced history alongside CC but we never ended up having the money to join and so we just read the read alouds. I also read to them the backs of the timeline cards at some point during the year. They learned SO much this way with just some read alouds and the cards. The only other thing we did was listen to audios in the car like SOTW and Jim Weiss stories. It blew me away what they learned with so little effort from me.

 

The next year (this past year) we switched to CC's new timeline. All year I read the kids the history highlights and the backs of the cards and we notebooked the cards by having them write a narration and illustrate the card and copy down the title and dates. It worked beautifully and they learned even more than the previous year, plus more world history was added in than before. I have history books on every topic in our house so my kids just read on all kinds of history topics in their free time. My son is practically an expert on the Civil War because that is his passion. My daughter prefers to read about world cultures. Anyway, this year partway through I had them read from a book basket and I dictated how much time had to be fiction and how much time had to be non-fiction and the books were from the CC list. This worked pretty well, too. I am debating for next year whether or not to dictate what they need to read or use the book basket idea again or just let them read whatever history they want to. They know so much history now that they really don't necessarily need to be tied to certain reading schedule, but it may force them to discover some of the great books they might not otherwise have picked up.

 

Next year I need to limit our study time beyond the 3R's because we are adding outside activities back in and we are entering Essentials (which I have made the core of our language arts studies in spelling/phonics, grammar, vocabulary, and writing and can explain if you'd like). I think I will have about 2 hours per day total to cover these subjects. The cards worked so well this year for history and science that I want to center our time on them again. SOTW will be something we read this summer and we will continue to listen to the audios year round. I will give them the student pages to do as they like and I may or may not have them do the maps and tests. I will describe the projects and over time I will collect the extra books for our home library and hopefully that will inspire them to do some fun history projects (they already play history together regularly) and read some more great books but it will not be required of me or them. Also, we will definitely do the review questions and cards.

 

So my plan for next year's afternoon time will be to read 2 VP History, 2 VP Bible, 2 CC timeline cards (or history highlights which is the free context for the history sentences found on CC Connected or with the app) and 2 CC science cards. They have a perfect size notebook for this from Miller Pads and Paper (online). I will copy the cards and let them glue the front side on the left page of the notebook. On the right they will glue the information from the box on the VP cards and from the top box of the CC cards. On the bottom lines they will take their own notes on what they learned. While they are setting up the notebook pages I will read the cards to them and we will discuss them. We will chant (or sing) through the previous cards from the year. For the VP cards I will pull out the teacher manual and fire off review questions and read anything interesting from the corresponding pages. We did this yesterday and in roughly 15 minutes per card we had a lively discussion and review session on each card plus they had taken some pertinent notes. It was great and they loved it. The sad part is that they won't be drawing the cards like they did this year, but they will be working on drawing the timeline cards in their PreScripts books so I'm going to let that go. I will also have them color/trace/draw the CC maps each day for geography. I used to think that unless we did self-paced or every worksheet in the VP and SOTW guides my kids would not get a thorough history education. But I have found that less, with a lot of repetition, is more. Knowing the cards that give the most important people and places and events has been a magnet for all the little details that they come across in the world and in their reading. I'd take a solid grasp of the most key information and a good grasp of how the pieces fit together and flow over lots of time spent on history periods in order without necessarily knowing how they fit together or not spending enough time reviewing them to remember long term. I can tell you my daughter remembers very little from our fun year and a half of TOG. She got a feel for the Old Testament and Egypt and a little of how they fit together, but she couldn't tell you much about it beyond what fun things we did....

 

I love how Leigh Bortins explains history in The Core. It is our job to get the kids to KNOW history....not just explore it for fun. They will need to know history to engage in the deeper discussions in the upper years. It is important to spend our time repeating the core of history information and making sure they've got that down and doing the fun extras in our leftover time. It is so easy to get bogged down in doing those projects and papers and miss the acquisition of long term storage through repetition. Because we know the timeline we are freed up to study any history. I can't tell you how wonderful it feels as a mom to watch a world history series on TV with my kids and have them yelling out names of peoples and places I never heard of until high school from their exposure to the timeline. They have such a good overall grasp of things and a passion for history (especially my son) and they have several years of repetition left to go that will just make that even stronger. They have some confidence that they know something and make amazing connections regularly between cultures and peoples and time periods, etc. Also, if you think about how history was taught a long time ago they did not have a lot of fun history projects and a huge library of books. They had a core amount of knowledge in their school books that they were drilled on and/or they passed on history through lots of repetition of stories. I think SOTW audios (or books) are a great way to add stories to what they're learning easily. If you spark their learning with memory work and give them a strong, repeated core of knowledge to build confidence they will be well equipped for the upper years and also desire to explore history further through creative projects that they either hear about in SOTW or VP guides or design on their own. And they usually enjoy it more when it is their idea, anyway.

 

The last thing I want to say is that over time you may even decide to stick with CC when you really understand the model and methods it promotes. But even if you don't your kids will be very well prepared for TOG in the later years if you spend time on the CC timeline and history highlights and throw in some good books or audios for their feasting.....

[G5052]

Our family did six years of Foundations, and I treated it as add-on memory work. Reviewing took no more than 20 minutes a day, and mine took that over for themselves for 4th grade and up. After they took it over, I did only spot checks.

 

We did the year of Sonlight that approximated the period CC was on. I've always had way too much going on outside of homeschooling to do something that wasn't scripted.

 

It worked for us. Now they're teens, and they still remember *SO* much of it. It was worth the sacrifices we made to do CC.

[tagglelim]

Thank you to those of you that have shared your systems thus far! You've all given me some food for thought.....and it seems to be 50/50 on whether or not to use a separate history program. :lol:

 

Stm4hm, I REALLY like your idea of drawing the cards! What a great way to combine both technical art skills and history.

 

One thing that is nice to see in the posts, regardless of how one approaches it, is that the memory work seems to be worth it. I'm also walking away with a sense that even just focusing on the main CC history points/timeline can generate a substantial knowledge of history. That is making me feel much more at peace with the decisions ahead of me.

 

I'm all about streamlining and I think I'm leaning towards jumping into CC and enhancing/building on it......hmmmmm.........

[Mrs Twain]

 

So my plan for next year's afternoon time will be to read 2 VP History, 2 VP Bible, 2 CC timeline cards (or history highlights which is the free context for the history sentences found on CC Connected or with the app) and 2 CC science cards. They have a perfect size notebook for this from Miller Pads and Paper (online).

 

 

Could you tell me which notebook you like from Miller Pads and Paper? I think your notebooking idea is great.

[The Crazy 4]

Next year I need to limit our study time beyond the 3R's because we are adding outside activities back in and we are entering Essentials (which I have made the core of our language arts studies in spelling/phonics, grammar, vocabulary, and writing and can explain if you'd like). I think I will have about 2 hours per day total to cover these subjects.

Can you explain this to me, Please?

Our family did six years of Foundations, and I treated it as add-on memory work. Reviewing took no more than 20 minutes a day, and mine took that over for themselves for 4th grade and up. After they took it over, I did only spot checks.

How did you do this? Did you buy the CC foundations guide?

[G5052]

Can you explain this to me, Please?

How did you do this? Did you buy the CC foundations guide?

 

 

I tutored Foundations for five years, so I always had the guide. But from 4th and up, I made the flashcards and CD's available to them, and they took it from there. One of mine never liked the CD's, but the other one listened to them quite a bit on their own.

 

I'm a no-frills homeschooler, believe me.

[nwmama]

Can you explain this to me, Please?

How did you do this? Did you buy the CC foundations guide?

 

 

If you join a CC Group then you would need to buy the Foundations Guide. But there are other resources for review if you want more.

[The Crazy 4]

I am joining the Foundations and essentials. Am confused on the essentials class, I went to the info meeting and thought I understood, but confused again. The catalog says EEL is a complete language arts program, does that mean that the guide will be my core for grammar, spelling, and writing? I was planning to use Rod and Staff English and Spelling workout, will I still be able too? I also use WWS1 and will be around week 15, but was told I should change to IEW.

[nwmama]

I am joining the Foundations and essentials. Am confused on the essentials class, I went to the info meeting and thought I understood, but confused again. The catalog says EEL is a complete language arts program, does that mean that the guide will be my core for grammar, spelling, and writing? I was planning to use Rod and Staff English and Spelling workout, will I still be able too? I also use WWS1 and will be around week 15, but was told I should change to IEW.

 

 

You can use Essentials as your complete language arts program but I've also heard of families only using it as a supplement. I most likely won't be doing Essentials at all because I prefer WWS and BW/TWJ to IEW and the cost doesn't justify using it as a supplement, to me.

[G5052]

I am joining the Foundations and essentials. Am confused on the essentials class, I went to the info meeting and thought I understood, but confused again. The catalog says EEL is a complete language arts program, does that mean that the guide will be my core for grammar, spelling, and writing? I was planning to use Rod and Staff English and Spelling workout, will I still be able too? I also use WWS1 and will be around week 15, but was told I should change to IEW.

 

 

The Essentials Guide plus the IEW book will be your grammar and writing. The guide has spelling, but the parents I worked with usually did their own thing for spelling. We used Spelling Workout through the whole series, so that's what mine did. I didn't see any reason to change what was working for us.

 

I would encourage you not to mix in an additional grammar program unless you pick-and-choose exercises to add to a concept you need more practice with. I've found that mixing definitions and even diagramming conventions can get extremely confusing. Once we started Essentials, I dropped everything else for grammar, and always went back to previous weeks if I felt like they needed more.

 

In writing, you might be able to pull in a few of the WWS1 exercises during the off weeks, but I wouldn't mix the two otherwise.

 

Over the years I did have a few who did just the writing or just the grammar part of Essentials, but frankly it was a frustrating experience for them. Being that age and sitting through a class isn't much fun.

[The Crazy 4]

Thank you so much, you have calmed my fears. I really wanted to do TWTM curriculum and am sad that I will have to change things (we really enjoyed what we were doing), but we really don't have any homeschool groups to join around here, but need some time out of the house and with others.

[GSOchristie]

We did CC cycle 1 this year with my kindergartener and preschooler, no supplementing other than library books. Next year we are adding SOTW vol 1. I am not going to make it match up with CC, that is just too much work for me. I am also adding Shurley grammar. We are going to add Apologia science for second grade (CC cycle 3). We are planning to add Essentials in 4th grade.

 

We know families in our CC group that just do CC, and others who use a full set if "other" curriculum.

[The Crazy 4]

I can see how that work for foundations, and science, history, or even latin. But it does seem like it would be to much when you start essentials, just the grammar and the writing. Doesn't it change and you need to start using what will be taught in the class?

[Micron4]

Thank you for sharing, Micron4 - a lot of what you said really resonated with me.

 

The scenario you presented when first starting out in Cycle 1 is exactly what I wonder about for us next year. I can picture myself feeling the exact same way - like I was attempting two different history programs. Which makes me wonder if I should just take the plunge and jump into CC. How did your year go when you started to follow the topic sentences? Did it flow well then?

 

 

 

My year went MUCH better once I just decided to stick with the CC plan for history/geography/science. It just seemed like everything we did at CC weekly reinforced what we were doing at home and vice versa.

 

This was my dd7's first run through world history, so not having any prior knowledge of events was a big part of it. Since I was constantly having to explain the history sentences to her, it just made sense to go with CC as our history plan. We are doing (finishing!) SOTW1 over the summer, primarily as a read-aloud with not many activities. It is exciting when we come to a part that she knows from the CC history sentence--she definitely perks up and is very interested. HTH!

[Micron4]

I used to think that unless we did self-paced or every worksheet in the VP and SOTW guides my kids would not get a thorough history education. But I have found that less, with a lot of repetition, is more. Knowing the cards that give the most important people and places and events has been a magnet for all the little details that they come across in the world and in their reading. I'd take a solid grasp of the most key information and a good grasp of how the pieces fit together and flow over lots of time spent on history periods in order without necessarily knowing how they fit together or not spending enough time reviewing them to remember long term. I can tell you my daughter remembers very little from our fun year and a half of TOG. She got a feel for the Old Testament and Egypt and a little of how they fit together, but she couldn't tell you much about it beyond what fun things we did....

 

I love how Leigh Bortins explains history in The Core. It is our job to get the kids to KNOW history....not just explore it for fun. They will need to know history to engage in the deeper discussions in the upper years. It is important to spend our time repeating the core of history information and making sure they've got that down and doing the fun extras in our leftover time. It is so easy to get bogged down in doing those projects and papers and miss the acquisition of long term storage through repetition. Because we know the timeline we are freed up to study any history. I can't tell you how wonderful it feels as a mom to watch a world history series on TV with my kids and have them yelling out names of peoples and places I never heard of until high school from their exposure to the timeline. They have such a good overall grasp of things and a passion for history (especially my son) and they have several years of repetition left to go that will just make that even stronger.

 

 

Thank you for this encouragement! I bolded my favorite parts of what you said. It's kind of what I guessed would be true, but I appreciate hearing it from someone who is a few years ahead of me in this homeschool journey.

 

I'm amazed at how little world history I know, so I figure that if my children will truly learn and know the timeline and each cycle's history sentences, they will be eons ahead of most, and that will help them tremendously when they get into the upper grades and college.

[tagglelim]

My year went MUCH better once I just decided to stick with the CC plan for history/geography/science. It just seemed like everything we did at CC weekly reinforced what we were doing at home and vice versa.

 

 

That is encouraging to hear and what I'm hoping for next year. Thanks!

[fourisenough]

I attended a CC practicum last week where I purchased all 4 sets of Acts & Facts History Cards and the set of science cards that we'll be using this year (Ecology/Astronomy/Physics). I was showing them to my husband and oldest daughter and explaining how they are used to flesh-out the timeline and history sentences. They were both amazed. My daughter, in particular, said that if the students at her high school knew 10% of the content, they would be rock stars. I thought that was a funny way to characterize it, but she was adamant that the way history is taught at school lacks both the depth and the big-picture focus that the 'CC' method will produce. I tend to agree...