CC Challenge A

[purplejackmama]

Love it? Hate it? Tell me about your experience.

[G5052]

Loved it! Just finished with my youngest. That's our favorite Classical Conversations Challenge year.

[nancyb]

Love it!

[mrs.m]

Love it? Hate it? Tell me about your experience.

 

 

We loved it!

[purplejackmama]

Thanks ladies. I would love to hear your thoughts on this. My friend's daughter completed Challenge A and then went to a local charter school for 8th grade. Our state just completed it's annual standardized testing and the daughter was really upset with the science portion. The majority of questions were biology related and she didn't know much. The mother blamed it on the year spent in Challenge. She said since the biology portion was simply writing papers, so her daughter was a severe disadvantage. Thoughts?

 

For the record: I place little to no stock in standardized tests scores as a means for determining knowledge =)

[mrs.m]

Well, it doesn't teach to a standardize test and if that is important to be covered in someone's homeschool, then there are other weeks in the year that they aren't doing challenge coursework where they can cover that material. Or they just shouldn't choose Challenge as it really doesn't fit a core knowledge mold.

 

CC makes it pretty clear what it does cover and how that is covered. It's no different than selecting any other curriculum and it may need to be altered if you want it to fit a certain mold.

[TarynB]

Well, it doesn't teach to a standardize test and if that is important to be covered in someone's homeschool, then there are other weeks in the year that they aren't doing challenge coursework where they can cover that material. Or they just shouldn't choose Challenge as it really doesn't fit a core knowledge mold.

 

CC makes it pretty clear what it does cover and how that is covered. It's no different than selecting any other curriculum and it may need to be altered if you want it to fit a certain mold.

 

 

As a potential CC user, I've found it fairly difficult to get straight answers about what exactly CC does cover and how the Challenge programs function, even after attending a seminar, personally speaking with two different directors, and studying the website and the latest 2013 catalog. Forgive me, but I've heard vague lingo and CC-specific terms (that mean little to an outsider) thrown around, but it all seems rather secretive and frustrating for those wanting to investigate further. But the PP's point seems valid about the science topics covered. CC apparently doesn't teach "science"; rather CC teaches research skills and applies them to science topics. Is that correct or am I misunderstanding? For a potential STEM student interested in the "whys" of math concepts and in-depth conventional science, I'm not sure CC would be a good fit. Your thoughts?

[mrs.m]

As a potential CC user, I've found it fairly difficult to get straight answers about what exactly CC does cover and how the Challenge programs function, even after attending a seminar, personally speaking with two different directors, and studying the website and the latest 2013 catalog. Forgive me, but I've heard vague lingo and CC-specific terms (that mean little to an outsider) thrown around, but it all seems rather secretive and frustrating for those wanting to investigate further. But the PP's point seems valid about the science topics covered. CC apparently doesn't teach "science"; rather CC teaches research skills and applies them to science topics. Is that correct or am I misunderstanding? For a potential STEM student interested in the "whys" of math concepts and in-depth conventional science, I'm not sure CC would be a good fit. Your thoughts?

 

 

Well, I think if you look at that texts that are being offered, you should be able to gather the scope of what is being covered as far as CC science goes. It isn't a standard biology textbook. And it really is as described in the catalog and not much more than that. I think your interpretration of vague is that the course really is as writen in the catalog and not much more. Yes, it is more research skills but they do teach science in the Challenge 1-4 levels with Apologia textbooks, just not in Challenge A & B. I think Challenge A is more of an extension of the Foundations program as it continues on with memory work and drilling. They transition out of that in Challenge B and into deeper thinking.

 

My point above is that if a parent is very concerned about standardized testing and STEM, then curriculum needs to be chosen accordingly and CC probably will not meet those standards without supplementation of the Challenge A & B science. CC is really just a curriculum and the tutors follow it closely. You don't have to do that at home and can alter it how you see fit and still participate in the community. You are the teacher and the tutor is really there to facilitate discussion and hopefully provide some motiviation and inspiration for the kids as well. I love CC and feel it is the best choice for us, but it doesn't follow the standardized path making it not the best choice for everyone. I really don't think they are trying to conceal that in any way.

 

Personally, I feel that the math course is right for us. Not all the students in my DD's group use Saxon, so there is some flexibility if Saxon is not your math text of choice.

[TarynB]

Well, I think if you look at that texts that are being offered, you should be able to gather the scope of what is being covered as far as CC science goes. It isn't a standard biology textbook. And it really is as described in the catalog and not much more than that. I think your interpretration of vague is that the course really is as writen in the catalog and not much more. Yes, it is more research skills but they do teach science in the Challenge 1-4 levels with Apologia textbooks, just not in Challenge A & B. I think Challenge A is more of an extension of the Foundations program as it continues on with memory work and drilling. They transition out of that in Challenge B and into deeper thinking.

 

My point above is that if a parent is very concerned about standardized testing and STEM, then curriculum needs to be chosen accordingly and CC probably will not meet those standards without supplementation of the Challenge A & B science. CC is really just a curriculum and the tutors follow it closely. You don't have to do that at home and can alter it how you see fit and still participate in the community. You are the teacher and the tutor is really there to facilitate discussion and hopefully provide some motiviation and inspiration for the kids as well. I love CC and feel it is the best choice for us, but it doesn't follow the standardized path making it not the best choice for everyone. I really don't think they are trying to conceal that in any way.

 

Personally, I feel that the math course is right for us. Not all the students in my DD's group use Saxon, so there is some flexibility if Saxon is not your math text of choice.

 

Thank you for taking the time to respond. It seems to me that the things CC does cover, it covers them very rigorously, which can be a strength, obviously. But it seems to leave little time in the rest of one's schedule for adding other key subjects or supplementing with other curricula at home, starting in the Challenge A level. A friend with a 7th grader in Ch. A expresses this to me regularly. Maybe that's just him, though. :)

 

Also, I wonder, for those students like the ones in your DD's class who choose not to use Saxon math, do they perhaps feel left out or not part of the group because they use a different math program? If we were to join CC, a large part of our reason for joining would be for the social/community/peer motivation aspect, and I would be afraid that choosing to abstain from certain parts (like Saxon math) would make DS feel like the oddball, which would defeat the purpose of joining, for us. Do you think that is a big deal for those who choose to substitute certain pieces, like, for instance, their math program? Just wondering.

 

ETA: OP, sorry for hijacking your thread! Hope this helps you as well!

[mrs.m]

Thank you for taking the time to respond. It seems to me that the things CC does cover, it covers them very rigorously, which can be a strength, obviously. But it seems to leave little time in the rest of one's schedule for adding in or supplementing with other curricula at home, starting in the Challenge A level. A friend with a 7th grader in Ch. A expresses this to me regularly. Maybe that's juIst him, though. :)

 

Also, I wonder, for those students like the ones in your DD's class who choose not to use Saxon math, do they perhaps feel left out or not part of the group because they use a different math program? If we were to join CC, a large part of our reason for joining would be for the social/community/peer motivation aspect, and I would be afraid that choosing to abstain from certain parts (like Saxon math) would make DS feel like the oddball, which would defeat the purpose of joining, for us. Do you think that is a big deal for those who choose to substitute certain pieces, like, for instance, their math program? Just wondering.

 

 

We do extra work on the off weeks. CC is 30 weeks and our school year generally covers 40-42 weeks. So I have room for a few more units. ;) But they don't have time for extra work within the 30 weeks they are in session.

 

I haven't noticed a disconnect with the class or a feeling of being left out because of sitting out on math class. I think one boy stays in the room and just does his own math lessons and another comes in later in the morning since they travel really far to get to our community. It's not a highly participatory class anyway, (honestly no time with the pace they move!) and it's first hour in our community. Those kids are still half asleep. :D Oh, and they won't give you a discount if you choose to do a different math for Challenge A or B. Just FYI!

[G5052]

So much depends on the tutor though in terms of the class time learning and how motivated the students to do their best for class. Yes, they all work off the same outline, and yes, they are all trained every summer. We've experienced the range though, and some years were better than others. Some tutors will set a higher standard than others and do well with motivating the students, and some will not.

 

Sometimes there is plenty of positive peer pressure, and sometimes you have the opposite. If you have a class of unmotivated kids whose parents aren't expecting as much as you are with a tutor who is fine with that, you may be disappointed too. Being the "others may, you may not" parent can be tough.

 

So it isn't just the curriculum at fault when you hear of people who were disappointed with CC. The tutor and mix of students may be an issue too.

 

Ultimately we decided that a custom mix is best for us for high school though. I wanted more rigorous Latin and a different choice of subjects. We'll miss it.

[TarynB]

We do extra work on the off weeks. CC is 30 weeks and our school year generally covers 40-42 weeks. So I have room for a few more units. ;) But they don't have time for extra work within the 30 weeks they are in session.

 

I haven't noticed a disconnect with the class or a feeling of being left out because of sitting out on math class. I think one boy stays in the room and just does his own math lessons and another comes in later in the morning since they travel really far to get to our community. It's not a highly participatory class anyway, (honestly no time with the pace they move!) and it's first hour in our community. Those kids are still half asleep. :D Oh, and they won't give you a discount if you choose to do a different math for Challenge A or B. Just FYI!

 

So much depends on the tutor though in terms of the class time learning and how motivated the students to do their best for class. Yes, they all work off the same outline, and yes, they are all trained every summer. We've experienced the range though, and some years were better than others. Some tutors will set a higher standard than others and do well with motivating the students, and some will not.

 

Sometimes there is plenty of positive peer pressure, and sometimes you have the opposite. If you have a class of unmotivated kids whose parents aren't expecting as much as you are with a tutor who is fine with that, you may be disappointed too. Being the "others may, you may not" parent can be tough.

 

So it isn't just the curriculum at fault when you hear of people who were disappointed with CC. The tutor and mix of students may be an issue too.

 

Ultimately we decided that a custom mix is best for us for high school though. I wanted more rigorous Latin and a different choice of subjects. We'll miss it.

 

 

Thank you both. Your thoughts are very helpful!

[Omma]

Very interesting! Thanks for starting this topic. We will be trying out CC this year, with my 8th grader going to Challenge A. He did BJU Life Science last year, so I have 2 different opinions floating around in my head. Mostly, I feel like it should be good for him to have to research Biology topics in order to do presentations in class. He will have to do outlines, draw diagrams, etc. which should help him interact with the material in a completely different way than what he did in BJU Life Science. I am hoping that it will build on what he has already learned. One little part of me wonders if it'll be a waste of a science year because he didn't go on to a different aspect of science like Earth and Space, but I am willing to give it a year to see how things go. I am really hoping the year of writing instruction using The Lost Tools of Writing will really help him formulate a good thesis and persuasive essay. We are switching to Saxon and his placement test points to Saxon 8/7. Plus, we have not done much Latin (although we are in our 2nd week of First Form Latin now which we are all really enjoying). I do appreciate hearing from others about how they liked or didn't like Challenge in CC, so thanks again for starting this thread! Brenda

[momofjep]

We loved it! Of course, we had a great tutor and I know that can make all the difference. For science, the first 15 weeks were spent researching different biology topics and presenting them to the class. The second 15 weeks were spent memorizing and studying different systems of the body. Our tutor also did a frog dissection, but I don't know if that's standard. I also took my boys to a weekly science class to get some more hands-on science time.

 

Henle Latin was a definite challenge, but I'm glad we stuck with it. He had spent the previous 3 years slowly working through Lively Latin I.

 

IEW the first semester was the most time consuming and most difficult for my son because he hadn't done much writing prior to that.

 

Saxon 8/7 was my least favorite. We dropped it after a couple of months and switched to a Pre-Algebra text. He continued to participate with the others during math though.

 

Once the CC year ended a few weeks ago, I added Analytical Grammar to his because there is no formal grammar study in CC.

[purplejackmama]

Great insight. Thank you!!

[TarynB]

I haven't noticed a disconnect with the class or a feeling of being left out because of sitting out on math class. I think one boy stays in the room and just does his own math lessons and another comes in later in the morning since they travel really far to get to our community. It's not a highly participatory class anyway, (honestly no time with the pace they move!) and it's first hour in our community.

 

Still thinking about this. In the catalog, they refer to logic, not actually math, using Saxon. The catalog also says "Students bring in questions from the previous week's material to discuss in class. Tutors answer questions and introduce concepts from the next four lessons." Your experience, referring to the class as not highly participatory, seems to not reflect what they advertise in the catalog. It sounds like parents are expected to be highly involved in actively teaching math outside of the CC class time, but I'm also hearing that there isn't much time within the 30 week course to do much math in addition to what CC covers. Thoughts regarding your experience?

[mrs.m]

Still thinking about this. In the catalog, they refer to logic, not actually math, using Saxon. The catalog also says "Students bring in questions from the previous week's material to discuss in class. Tutors answer questions and introduce concepts from the next four lessons." Your experience, referring to the class as not highly participatory, seems to not reflect what they advertise in the catalog. It sounds like parents are expected to be highly involved in actively teaching math outside of the CC class time, but I'm also hearing that there isn't much time within the 30 week course to do much math in addition to what CC covers. Thoughts regarding your experience?

 

 

Our tutor did cover the concepts for each upcoming lesson for the week. The students often didn't bring in any questions to discuss, but of course questions were addressed when they were asked. They would solve problems when called upon. It just wasn't as active as other discussion classes such as Rhetoric. However, the tutor doesn't really have time to cover ALL the concepts for the week in one hour, so we really end up reteaching it through the week. You will want to find out what your community's dynamic is for math because I do think this may be very dependent on the tutor but might possibly be dependent on the kids in the class. This group is just really quiet during math but not all the other discussion classes.

 

DD spent about an hour per day on Algebra 1 and bit longer as she moved toward the end of the book. We used the DIVE CDs to help teach and she did all the problems in the lesson (not just evens or odds). I would say that we wouldn't have time to include another math curriculum in addition to Saxon but I haven't really found it to be necessary. (occassionally we watched a video on Khan if something wasn't sinking in)

 

I didn't use DIVE for Saxon 87 in challenge A. We just read through the lesson. I don't remember a lesson taking an hour though, it was closer to 45 minutes.

[nancyb]

Only half of my dd's class used Saxon. It was no big deal. Nobody left the room. They all participated in the math talk. Some who used Saxon fell behind on the schedule. Again, no big deal. The lectures were still valuable.

 

One of the things I love about CC is that while they provide structure, you are still in control. You chose what math you use. If you use Saxon, you chose whether your child will do all the problems or only the odd ones. If you have a rough week, you can decide to let your child skip a paper. When your child draws maps, you chose how much detail you want them to learn. Do you want them to learn the capitals of all those countries? How about geographical features?

 

There was a special needs child in my dd's class. She worked at her level. My daughter worked at her level. Everybody supported each other.

 

I agree that the web site is not very helpful. I would HIGHLY recommend visiting a campus and sitting in on a class. We had done CC Foundations and Essentials, but I really didn't understand Challenge A until I sat in a class. If it's too late to sit in a class, I'm sure that the tutor would sit down with you and go over a typical week.

 

There are some very short but helpful podcasts on the CC Website. Look on the center of the page for Podcasts. http://www.classicalconversations.com/

 

There are a few more here: http://www.classicalconversations.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=80&Itemid=10

 

HTH!

[nancyb]

Ooops!

[TarynB]

Our tutor did cover the concepts for each upcoming lesson for the week. The students often didn't bring in any questions to discuss, but of course questions were addressed when they were asked. They would solve problems when called upon. It just wasn't as active as other discussion classes such as Rhetoric. However, the tutor doesn't really have time to cover ALL the concepts for the week in one hour, so we really end up reteaching it through the week. You will want to find out what your community's dynamic is for math because I do think this may be very dependent on the tutor but might possibly be dependent on the kids in the class. This group is just really quiet during math but not all the other discussion classes.

 

DD spent about an hour per day on Algebra 1 and bit longer as she moved toward the end of the book. We used the DIVE CDs to help teach and she did all the problems in the lesson (not just evens or odds). I would say that we wouldn't have time to include another math curriculum in addition to Saxon but I haven't really found it to be necessary. (occassionally we watched a video on Khan if something wasn't sinking in)

 

I didn't use DIVE for Saxon 87 in challenge A. We just read through the lesson. I don't remember a lesson taking an hour though, it was closer to 45 minutes.

 

Only half of my dd's class used Saxon. It was no big deal. Nobody left the room. They all participated in the math talk. Some who used Saxon fell behind on the schedule. Again, no big deal. The lectures were still valuable.

 

One of the things I love about CC is that while they provide structure, you are still in control. You chose what math you use. If you use Saxon, you chose whether your child will do all the problems or only the odd ones. If you have a rough week, you can decide to let your child skip a paper. When your child draws maps, you chose how much detail you want them to learn. Do you want them to learn the capitals of all those countries? How about geographical features?

 

There was a special needs child in my dd's class. She worked at her level. My daughter worked at her level. Everybody supported each other.

 

I agree that the web site is not very helpful. I would HIGHLY recommend visiting a campus and sitting in on a class. We had done CC Foundations and Essentials, but I really didn't understand Challenge A until I sat in a class. If it's too late to sit in a class, I'm sure that the tutor would sit down with you and go over a typical week.

 

There are some very short but helpful podcasts on the CC Website. Look on the center of the page for Podcasts. http://www.classicalconversations.com/

 

There are a few more here: http://www.classical...id=80&Itemid=10

 

HTH!

 

Thank you both for sharing your real-life experiences. This helps. This is why I love these boards!

[stm4him]

As with all CC programs, I think part of making the parents happy is having the parents truly understand what CC is and what CC is not. It can be hard to figure out exactly what Challenge is from the outside because the books are not readily available to view. I think what one is paying for is motivation, friendships with kids who are studying the same rigorous material, and another helper in reaching the challenging goals we have for our students. This person may help keep us going as well as provide another wonderful role model for our kids. It gives us a week by week layout of what to do with the accountability of the weekly meetings while still giving us the freedom to add or subtract week by week or year by year what we deem appropriate for each student and each circumstance as they present themselves in our lives. I think it is always what we make of it. There are parents (in the lower levels as well) that spend a small amount of time on CC and use it to enhance other things they do and those who wrap everything around CC and maximize it. Some parents can't seem to have anything added to the workload of Challenge and other parents add in Omnibus and/or other languages, etc. I think a lot of that depends on how hard/long the student was used to working before starting Challenge and how much time they have to study based on how many outside activities they have, etc. I've heard anywhere from 3 hours per day to 10 hours per day of homework. I think Leigh means for it to be about 4 hours per day of work from the video I saw at practicum last summer. To me that is not overwhelming by any means, but we'll see when we get there.

 

After reading Dorothy Sayer's essay again last night it seems to me that Challenge does really try to focus on the classical METHODS of education, and not necessarily the standard curriculum. Sometimes this may mean I want to add a standard textbook on the side or in the summer, but I would not sacrifice learning classical methods of education for getting through a set of textbooks. You could compare just the books on the website to other books in other programs and it might not look as meaty, but I think if you actually saw what they DO with those books it would be different. Forums like this are especially helpful in gathering more info, but I think part of it comes down to what you are looking for and how much you trust that CC's goals are in line with yours.....

 

I have not been disappointed in Foundations once I understood what it was and was not; what it could and couldn't do for my family and what I could do with it at home to make it all I wanted it to be (and realized its true effectiveness over time). I expect to find the same in Essentials this year and in Challenge when we get there too.....

[Omma]

The latest word from my dh is that we should skip Challenge A for my 13 ds and jump right into Challenge B as new members of CC. I hope he is right. I can see pros and cons to each way. His biggest reason is that he wants our son to be on target for high school science, which he wouldn't be if we did Challenge A in 8th, Challenge B in 9th, and Challenge I in 10th. He's also thinking of having our 11 dd start right in with Challenge A instead of Foundations/Essentials for one year like I had originally planned. Her b-day is the end of November which I guess is the final cutoff to start Challenge A as an 11 year old. We are even discussing switching to have her be a 7th grader instead of a 6th grader next year, as she is completely 6th grade coursework with BJU this year (and 7th grade math). My head is spinning!

[Omma]

Don't laugh, but we are back to our original plan to have our 8th grader do Challenge A and our dd Foundations/Essentials. I guess we will just worry about high school science when we get to it! I am happy, as I really want my son to use The Lost Tools of Writing!

[mrs.m]

Omma, you will be happy that you started your 8th grader with Challenge A. It will be a great foundation for later challenge years. And Essentials will also be great for your DD. No laughing here, just supporting your decision!

[Omma]

Jannylynn, Thanks for the support. That really helps! Also, I have a DIVE math question for you (or anyone else). We are just switching to Saxon and I was able to pick up the DIVE for 8/7 at a great price. The introductory lesson says that in a week, the recommendation is to watch 2 lessons the first day, but only do the practice set for the 2nd lesson. Then do lesson 3 the 2nd day and lesson 4 the 3rd day, and I think they said to do a test the 4th day each week. Or I could just use the DIVE sporadically if needed. Or I could just wait and follow the schedule that the other CC Challenge dc get once school starts up and put my dd and ds on the same schedule. Art Reed says you don't skip anything, and you don't give partial credit for a problem, so I guess I am realizing that DIVE and Art Reed both must have 2 different approaches for implementing Saxon. Any thoughts?

[mrs.m]

I followed CC's challenge guide schedule and DD watched the DIVE lessons accordingly. You might find they aren't needed for pre-algebra. We needed them for Algebra!!!

[AmyinMD]

Two of my dds have done Challenge A and both really enjoyed it. However both have had really great tutors and a great group of kids. They were both a little bummed when it was over this year although they don't miss all the work they had to get done each week. I would go visit and ask lots of questions and see if it is a good fit before enrolling.

 

My older dd did Challenge B for 9th grade but we did add a lab science to her school year. The Umbrella program we use figured she was at 7.5 credits for the year with everything we documented (we did supplement some). We added an outside lab based science class for my 9th grader to Challenge B. I don't think the science for A and B is high school level. My younger dd is in 7th grade this year so will do Challenge I as a 9th grader. As far as the science I do think it is light but I found my girls learned a good bit about researching and for Challenge A made a very nice notebook of what they did in Science.

 

They have around 4 months off from when classes end to when they start back up again. That leaves a lot of time to supplement with Science or do units on things that may not be covered within CC. For example I want my 15 yo to do American History this summer so she's already working on that. We might do half this summer and half next summer. I have supplemented some during the year for A and B but we have heard Challenge I is very time intensive. My dd has dyslexia and there is a lot of reading for that level so I don't plan to supplement while she is in Challenge I.

 

Neither of my girls use Saxon. They both participate in the math lessons at CC though. It gives them good practice. I don't think many of the kids are following along exactly with the math for Challenge.

[Wee Pip]

Don't laugh, but we are back to our original plan to have our 8th grader do Challenge A and our dd Foundations/Essentials. I guess we will just worry about high school science when we get to it! I am happy, as I really want my son to use The Lost Tools of Writing!

We've been going thru the same debate for dd (12-will be 13 in Oct). I think we've finally settled on A. B isnt is as easy to find, class sizes are smaller when I find them, and I worry that B would be too much for our 1st yr in cc.

[Omma]

I have learned that you can 'opt out' of a class, so if a math or science class within the challenge level wasn't a right fit, you could opt out, pay less, and have your child work on their own lesson during that time. I have even heard that some schools have a way that a child could attend a different challenge level just for math or science, for example. Anyone have that kind of experience, or know of those that have been able to do that? We wouldn't do that next year, but I'd love to know that it was a workable option for the future!

[mrs.m]

I'm sure they changed the opt-out option for A&B last year. The registration form says something about paying only full tution for A & B. (Check with the director, though.)

 

You can check with your director to see about attending a different math level if that is what is needed but they don't encourage that in Challenge A & B.

 

There's a bit more flexibility for Challenge 1-4.

[lauracolumbus]

We are looking at Challenge B for my rising 8th grader. She will opt out of the math and Latin, but we are still expected to pay for it. I think in years past they didn't require payment. She is doing Lukeion Latin 3 and geometry with Jann in TX. So, I'm paying almost $1k just for those 2 classes and then will need to pay the full amount for CCB. I am mostly doing it for the reasons mentioned above by PP: the social environment, the weekly motivation, and the accountability to someone else. My dd will also do a co-op science class (Kolbe's Physical Science), Zaccaro's Real World Algebra and a Shakespeare class. I'm a bit worried about the workload b/c Lukeion is a butt-kicker. The Challenge work seems light (except for the logic), but I didn't realize until the other day that she'd only have 3.5 days to get all of her work done b/c of the full day at CC and half day at co-op. I'm also surprised b/c the history seems non-existent--esp. for a classical program. My daughter is super motivated to do this b/c she likes the kids a lot--some have been in our previous co-op and will be in our upcoming co-op. I'm really on the fence about signing her up b/c to me the workload looks particularly light, but her other classes will not be light.

 

Would love to hear more from those who have been through Ch. B.

 

Laura

[Brenda in FL]

Don't laugh, but we are back to our original plan to have our 8th grader do Challenge A and our dd Foundations/Essentials. I guess we will just worry about high school science when we get to it! I am happy, as I really want my son to use The Lost Tools of Writing!

 

 

I'll add that I was glad that my son was in 8th grade during our first experience with Challenge. The workload is intense and as an 8th grader I think he was able to get more out of it than some of the younger kids. And I could demand a higher level of quality. My daughter did take it a year later as a 7th grader (also a summer birthday) and she did fine - but wasn't able to keep up with the writing as well as my son. I am sorry that we are missing out on Lost Tools of Writing.

 

One thing for anyone to consider when trying to decide to enroll an 11 year-old (which may not even be allowed anymore) is if the child will be ready for Challenge B. Logic is not easy. Will they be ready for various current event topics? The mock trial content may be a little raw and they really need to be ready to do some hard diligent work for the sake of the team. Overall Ch B requires a greater maturity level of the student that doesn't necessarily correspond to their academic level.

 

Good luck with your year! We are really glad to be using the Challenge program.

[G5052]

We are looking at Challenge B for my rising 8th grader. She will opt out of the math and Latin, but we are still expected to pay for it. I think in years past they didn't require payment. She is doing Lukeion Latin 3 and geometry with Jann in TX. So, I'm paying almost $1k just for those 2 classes and then will need to pay the full amount for CCB. I am mostly doing it for the reasons mentioned above by PP: the social environment, the weekly motivation, and the accountability to someone else. My dd will also do a co-op science class (Kolbe's Physical Science), Zaccaro's Real World Algebra and a Shakespeare class. I'm a bit worried about the workload b/c Lukeion is a butt-kicker. The Challenge work seems light (except for the logic), but I didn't realize until the other day that she'd only have 3.5 days to get all of her work done b/c of the full day at CC and half day at co-op. I'm also surprised b/c the history seems non-existent--esp. for a classical program. My daughter is super motivated to do this b/c she likes the kids a lot--some have been in our previous co-op and will be in our upcoming co-op. I'm really on the fence about signing her up b/c to me the workload looks particularly light, but her other classes will not be light.

 

Would love to hear more from those who have been through Ch. B.

 

Laura

 

When we did Challenge B, I handled the math, and we did an outside Latin class on another day. The Latin class was cheap for me though, and my younger one also took a class at that time. We found Challenge B to be pretty easy. Mine was done by noon on most days except for during Mock Trial. And there is some history during the "History of Science" class, and ours did a timeline with the other subjects. Then Challenge I was the same. I did the math, and we did an online Latin class. And he was usually done at noon with the Challenge work.

 

This year I had one in Challenge, and one not in Challenge, and frankly the one not in Challenge did a lot more academically. I don't regret our Challenge years, but doing a custom mix for high school works better for us.

[shanezomom]

After reading these CC threads, I am now considering Challenge A for rising 7th grader who will turn 12 yrs next month. We could benefit from the structure and accountability of CC from what has been described here while leaving me in control which I like. Our local community has a successful Foundations and Essentials program and they are now expanding to Challenge A and up. The Challenge A tutor was just hired and is starting her training.

 

As a newbie, would the seasoned folks recommend that we read Leigh Bortin's book(s) first, or is the tutor's influence really where the "rubber meets the road" and more indicative of what we should expect?

 

Do the tutor training materials set clear expectations for their role? Any tutors care to comment?

 

We had been participating in a speech and debate club for the last couple years and I think Challenge A will address public speaking enough for us, which I like. Any feedback on this?

 

I have already purchased the new Omnibus I self-paced program for next year and I am wondering if I will be able to fit it in as our history and still use the CC literature. Any feedback on the literature portion of CCA? I would have the option of using the secondary reading selections of Omni I to cover lit but would this limit ds's participation in the discussions of the books being read for CCA?

[G5052]

As a newbie, would the seasoned folks recommend that we read Leigh Bortin's book(s) first, or is the tutor's influence really where the "rubber meets the road" and more indicative of what we should expect?

 

Do the tutor training materials set clear expectations for their role? Any tutors care to comment?

 

 

Leigh Bortin's books are helpful, but IMHO not as critical for the Challenge years. Echos in Celebration is more general. You can see the table of contents on the CC Bookstore website. I would say that The Core is very important if you're in Foundations/Essentials. Her new book (not yet released) called The Question might be helpful because it is focused on the Challenge years.

 

Training is three afternoons of time. They go over the overall structure of the program and roles, and then spend an hour or so on each subject. Tutors also have access to an online forum for questions and sharing materials.

 

But in the end, so much will depend on the tutor. They really aren't teaching the depth of the material, but their ability to inspire and motivate will make or break your experience. We've experience the whole range. We had intense, organized tutors who were able to pull off an amazing amount of learning in even the most reluctant students. And we've had some who were disorganized, had classroom management issues, and faltered with some of the content areas. This is true of course of any class ranging from Sunday School to online homeschool classes though, so it is not an issue unique to CC by any means.

 

We had been participating in a speech and debate club for the last couple years and I think Challenge A will address public speaking enough for us, which I like. Any feedback on this?

 

The presentations in Challenge A involve primarily presenting the work they did at home, so the variety and depth may be different for you.

 

I have already purchased the new Omnibus I self-paced program for next year and I am wondering if I will be able to fit it in as our history and still use the CC literature. Any feedback on the literature portion of CCA? I would have the option of using the secondary reading selections of Omni I to cover lit but would this limit ds's participation in the discussions of the books being read for CCA?

 

Every kid is different, but mine did CC and the Veritas Self-Paced 1815-Modern with the books this year, and had no problems. The CC books are all pretty short and are read one week, and then written on this next week. She has some to finish up still because the self-paced is a 5-day program, and I didn't feel like she should have to do that after a long day at CC. I wouldn't think that most of us could do Omnibus and Challenge A full bore, but you certainly could pick-and-choose of course. I would start with Omnibus Primary only and see how it goes with Challenge A.

[nwmama]

 

 

Also, I wonder, for those students like the ones in your DD's class who choose not to use Saxon math, do they perhaps feel left out or not part of the group because they use a different math program? If we were to join CC, a large part of our reason for joining would be for the social/community/peer motivation aspect, and I would be afraid that choosing to abstain from certain parts (like Saxon math) would make DS feel like the oddball, which would defeat the purpose of joining, for us. Do you think that is a big deal for those who choose to substitute certain pieces, like, for instance, their math program? Just wondering.

 

ETA: OP, sorry for hijacking your thread! Hope this helps you as well!

 

 

All of my kids are still in Foundations and I love CC for our family. However...I do not do everything CC's way and almost no one in our group does. I won't be doing Essentials, I'm not sure if I'll stick with Saxon, I'll add more science, etc. I don't worry about whether the other families are all doing the same, I hope that they aren't so that we don't have a group of copycats. I'd much rather have a diverse group. That's not to say that there aren't CC groups that have an unspoken rule that you must do Saxon or Essentials but I would hope those are few and far between :)

[lauracolumbus]

When we did Challenge B, I handled the math, and we did an outside Latin class on another day. The Latin class was cheap for me though, and my younger one also took a class at that time. We found Challenge B to be pretty easy. Mine was done by noon on most days except for during Mock Trial. And there is some history during the "History of Science" class, and ours did a timeline with the other subjects. Then Challenge I was the same. I did the math, and we did an online Latin class. And he was usually done at noon with the Challenge work.

 

This year I had one in Challenge, and one not in Challenge, and frankly the one in Challenge did a lot more academically. I don't regret our Challenge years, but doing a custom mix for high school works better for us.

 

 

Thanks so much for responding. I suspected this was the case, but it helps greatly to hear confirmation before I pluck down the $$$. Can you tell me how your dc did with the logic portion? That's the only part that gives me pause, besides the time issue.

 

And as was mentioned, I think the issue with Challenge B is a maturity issue more than an academic issue. The topic in Mock Trial will be about domestic violence.

 

Laura

[G5052]

 

 

Thanks so much for responding. I suspected this was the case, but it helps greatly to hear confirmation before I pluck down the $$$. Can you tell me how your dc did with the logic portion? That's the only part that gives me pause, besides the time issue.

 

And as was mentioned, I think the issue with Challenge B is a maturity issue more than an academic issue. The topic in Mock Trial will be about domestic violence.

 

Laura

 

We did fine with the logic portion in Challenge B (high "A"), but I usually ended up having to go over the lessons again at home and then we did some of the homework assignments together through the tougher parts. Class time wasn't really helpful for my dc. The previous year the tutor had just showed the DVDs, so this was the first year that she was truly teaching it and it was tough for her. Logic is typically the weak point for Challenge B tutors from what I've heard from friends at other campuses. Most of my friends get the DVDs as a backup to learn the material.

 

As far as maturity, we really didn't have an issue with Mock Trial, but mine have seen DH and I deal with a family member who had drug abuse problems, mental illness, run-ins with the authorities, etc. etc. For families with a more scrubbed environment, working with a case involving alcohol, infidelity, violence, and such might be not something they want. Some of the families opted out. Some of the short stories in that unit might be considered a little rough too, FWIW.

[Omma]

I continue to be glad that my rising 8th grader will be doing Challenge A. I will wait to see the workload and decide if and when we want to add any science. I have Apologia Physical Science waiting in the wings for whenever I feel it'll work. I also may do BJU Earth Science next year when my ds does Challenge B in 9th grade. We'll see. As for history, my plan is to continue with MFW 1850 - Modern, as we have already done MFW Exp. to 1850 this year. I think I am finally getting it in my head that the focus for Challenge A is really about getting our dc to be able to research, write about, and present topics...so that they really internalize the material in such a way as to be able to present and teach it to others. I think that will be a great focus for us, and I am not so worried anymore about how much 'new' science my dc might be learning this coming year.