Question for other Scout treasurers

[GeorgiaGirl160]

Hi,

 

I am very frustrated this year as pack treasurer for my son's Cub Scout pack. I have unknowingly inherited a huge mess, at least I think so.

 

The Committee Chair tells me it's not a big deal, but I think he's wrong, and I'm worried because I'm personally liable as the keeper of the books and signer on the bank account.

 

It is my understanding from reading online that our PTA chartered Cub Scout pack is legally a part of the PTA, just like the carnation sale and the fall festival. We just have our own uniforms.

 

As such, I understand from reading the irs instructions that we are supposed to give our tax records to the PTA to include in their 990 filings. I've tried twice. Neither of the treasurers the PTA had this year would accept them, and the second one was quite rude.

 

I was also concerned earlier this year during tax season about whether the PTA taxes were being filed at all because the PTA had no treasurer from December to March. I asked about the PTA's 990 form, which is supposed to be available to anyone for public inspection, and the PTA refused to let me see it or answer my questions.

 

I checked the IRS nonprofit lookup online and found that our school PTA was not listed as a valid nonprofit by their EIN or their name. Naturally, I was concerned, because if the PTA loses their non profit status, so does our pack, and that's a lot of money in fines and back taxes.

 

So, I went up the line to the district PTA and the state PTA to verify whether or not the PTA was still a registered nonprofit and if their 990 tax forms had been filed. Neither helped. They just referred me back to my school PTA which had turned me down twice, so no point in asking there.

 

The next day, I got a call from the Cub Scout committee chair: "Please don't talk to anyone else at the PTA or the Boy Scouts about taxes or finances. I'm getting complaints from the Boy Scout Council."

 

I spoke to him in person the next day and tried to explain my concerns. He basically blew them off. He says it's "the PTA's responsibility, not the pack's" and if the IRS ever questions the returns they won't fine us because we're nice people helping kids and it's a small amount of money anyway.

 

1. I don't file my taxes according to whether or not I will get caught. I do them honestly, period. What he's asking me to do is no different than failing to list the income and expenses of the fall festival, or any other PTA program. This is an ethics issue. He's asking me to do something I would never do on my own personal or business taxes.

 

2. I am tired of being blown off. I should be a part of any decision that affects me legally and financially. I didn't sign up for this. I was asked to be treasurer in good faith, and after accepting, I find out that the pack hasn't filed any taxes in nine years, doesn't have an EIN number, and the PTA is crazy. The entire PTA board quit in February, except for the treasurer they got in March finally, and they've had no active board until next month when a new group will finally be sworn in.

 

I am honestly offended at being shut down like a child and excluded from the discussions among the PTA, the BSA Council and the Committee Chair and Cubmaster like it's none of my business.

 

Am I making too much of this? I don't want to affect my son's experience in the Scouts. The pack is very short on volunteers (which I will address in a different post), and it will be very difficult for them to get a new treasurer if I quit.

 

Due to various out-of-state moves, new babies, etc., I am also at this point the advancement chair, the webmaster, and the camp card coordinator. I am burned out.

 

Help! Can any other Scout treasurers give me a clue as to how reasonable or unreasonable my concerns are? Would any of you consider this worth quitting over?

 

GA Cub Mom

[Tess in the Burbs]

Find a new troop. Better ones will gladly accept you and be honest with you

[AK_Mom4]

I would politely resign as pack treasurer, effective immediately. That's a mess of worms in that there can!

 

You can always help out the pack by keeping the other volunteer positions if they are working for you. I never volunteer to handle $$$, just because of this type of thing. If the other positions are too much, resign from the ones that are a burden and keep the ones that have value for you.

[Alessandra]

Wow, inheriting a mess that everyone wants cleaned up is one thing, but inheriting a mess that everyone wants to sweep under the rug is quite another. One person missing from your equation is a COR (Chartered Organization Representative) -- that person should exist and be helping.

 

I would resign from the Treasurer position asap; I would also keep a copy of the records you have in case there are questions later.

[Joshin]

If you want to keep the position, you need to find your COR. I know for our pack, it was also a mess when I took over as Cubmaster/interim treasurer. First, unless you set up bank accounts in your name, you won't be help liable to the IRS. The PTA owns the pack and they will be held liable if there is ever an issue. We had to jump through a ton of hoops to set up a simple bank account, and in the end had to bring the COR in because the no one could wrap their head around the fact that we were owned by our Charter org and the EIN we had was tied to theirs.

 

I know for our pack, we just hand them the form every year and let them deal with it or not, as they see fit. I have no idea if they do or not because they are pretty hands off, but we fulfilled our responsibility so beyond that I don't worry about it. The first year I had to call the IRS because I couldn't get a hold of our charter org. and had no clue what to do. The IRS lady basically told me to do nothing, saying for our type of organization and the amount of fundraising we did, we didn't need to do anything. This isn't tax advice, just my experience. Since then, I've at least found one person at our charter to hand stuff off to, at least.

[Cera]

I would resign effective immediately.

 

The liability you may have as the treasurer iis one issue but the even bigger issue from my perspective is the refusal of other parties to address the situation.

[SailorMom]

Sounds kinda normal to me. I've been in 4 packs and 2 troops (we move...) and none have ever given any kind of tax document to their chartered organization. Whatever the chartered organization does with their taxes was never our concern. There are no BSA regulations on this (that I've ever run into as committee chairs or Cubmaster). If the finances in the Pack are being run well and good records are kept - I'd quit worrying about it.

 

[GeorgiaGirl160]

Our COR is the PTA co-secretary, who quit in February along with the rest of the PTA board as she has a newborn. She is the only officer with a good reason for quitting. A genuinely nice lady, but no help in my situation.

 

Right now, there is no COR because there is no PTA board at all. They finally got enough volunteers to hold an election in May, right before school ends.

 

Thank you all for the replies, and allowing me to vent,

 

GA Cub Mom

[LanaTron]

1. I don't file my taxes according to whether or not I will get caught. I do them honestly, period. What he's asking me to do is no different than failing to list the income and expenses of the fall festival, or any other PTA program. This is an ethics issue. He's asking me to do something I would never do on my own personal or business taxes.

 

2. I am tired of being blown off. I should be a part of any decision that affects me legally and financially. I didn't sign up for this. I was asked to be treasurer in good faith, and after accepting, I find out that the pack hasn't filed any taxes in nine years, doesn't have an EIN number, and the PTA is crazy. The entire PTA board quit in February, except for the treasurer they got in March finally, and they've had no active board until next month when a new group will finally be sworn in.

 

 

Hmmm...   I find the whole "owned by the charter" thing to be so confusing, especially since our charter is very uninvolved in our units.  Anyway, I've been a Pack CC before, and also am currently Troop Secretary and Crew CC/Treasurer.  We've never given any financial information to our charter organization.  And we've never filed taxes.  Both the Troop and the Crew each have an EIN that is separate from the charter organization's (I'm the one who requested the one for the Crew, so I know for sure it is seperate). We have 501c3 designation via our charter, but we have sales tax exempt status in the state of TX via our Council.  

 

This may help you:  http://www.scouting.org/filestore/financeimpact/pdf/fiscal_policies_and_procedures_for_bsa_units.pdf

 

 

[Joyofsixreboot]

Hmmm... I find the whole "owned by the charter" thing to be so confusing, especially since our charter is very uninvolved in our units. Anyway, I've been a Pack CC before, and also am currently Troop Secretary and Crew CC/Treasurer. We've never given any financial information to our charter organization. And we've never filed taxes. Both the Troop and the Crew each have an EIN that is separate from the charter organization's (I'm the one who requested the one for the Crew, so I know for sure it is seperate). We have 501c3 designation via our charter, but we have sales tax exempt status in the state of TX via our Council.

 

This may help you: http://www.scouting.org/filestore/financeimpact/pdf/fiscal_policies_and_procedures_for_bsa_units.pdf

This is our situation. We've never filed, never given any info and other than our bank balance I don't know what I would give them.

[DawnM]

I would have responded, "And you will continue to receive calls until this is fixed.  If you are upset at ME because YOU got caught, that is not my problem.  This is against BSA policy and BSA says that if I go to you and you don't fix it, I am to go to Counsel.  I am simply following protocol."

 

I would probably be more diplomatic than that, but that would be the gist of it!  

 

Dawn

 

 

Hi,

I am very frustrated this year as pack treasurer for my son's Cub Scout pack. I have unknowingly inherited a huge mess, at least I think so.

The Committee Chair tells me it's not a big deal, but I think he's wrong, and I'm worried because I'm personally liable as the keeper of the books and signer on the bank account.

It is my understanding from reading online that our PTA chartered Cub Scout pack is legally a part of the PTA, just like the carnation sale and the fall festival. We just have our own uniforms.

As such, I understand from reading the irs instructions that we are supposed to give our tax records to the PTA to include in their 990 filings. I've tried twice. Neither of the treasurers the PTA had this year would accept them, and the second one was quite rude.

I was also concerned earlier this year during tax season about whether the PTA taxes were being filed at all because the PTA had no treasurer from December to March. I asked about the PTA's 990 form, which is supposed to be available to anyone for public inspection, and the PTA refused to let me see it or answer my questions.

I checked the IRS nonprofit lookup online and found that our school PTA was not listed as a valid nonprofit by their EIN or their name. Naturally, I was concerned, because if the PTA loses their non profit status, so does our pack, and that's a lot of money in fines and back taxes.

So, I went up the line to the district PTA and the state PTA to verify whether or not the PTA was still a registered nonprofit and if their 990 tax forms had been filed. Neither helped. They just referred me back to my school PTA which had turned me down twice, so no point in asking there.

The next day, I got a call from the Cub Scout committee chair: "Please don't talk to anyone else at the PTA or the Boy Scouts about taxes or finances. I'm getting complaints from the Boy Scout Council."

I spoke to him in person the next day and tried to explain my concerns. He basically blew them off. He says it's "the PTA's responsibility, not the pack's" and if the IRS ever questions the returns they won't fine us because we're nice people helping kids and it's a small amount of money anyway.

1. I don't file my taxes according to whether or not I will get caught. I do them honestly, period. What he's asking me to do is no different than failing to list the income and expenses of the fall festival, or any other PTA program. This is an ethics issue. He's asking me to do something I would never do on my own personal or business taxes.

2. I am tired of being blown off. I should be a part of any decision that affects me legally and financially. I didn't sign up for this. I was asked to be treasurer in good faith, and after accepting, I find out that the pack hasn't filed any taxes in nine years, doesn't have an EIN number, and the PTA is crazy. The entire PTA board quit in February, except for the treasurer they got in March finally, and they've had no active board until next month when a new group will finally be sworn in.

I am honestly offended at being shut down like a child and excluded from the discussions among the PTA, the BSA Council and the Committee Chair and Cubmaster like it's none of my business.

Am I making too much of this? I don't want to affect my son's experience in the Scouts. The pack is very short on volunteers (which I will address in a different post), and it will be very difficult for them to get a new treasurer if I quit.

Due to various out-of-state moves, new babies, etc., I am also at this point the advancement chair, the webmaster, and the camp card coordinator. I am burned out.

Help! Can any other Scout treasurers give me a clue as to how reasonable or unreasonable my concerns are? Would any of you consider this worth quitting over?

GA Cub Mom

 

[GeorgiaGirl160]

Hi,

 

It's nice to see new replies to my original post.  Thank you, but the problem was resolved last year.

 

GeorgiaGirl160