If you're using TOG secularly, any advice for me? Redesign vs. Classic?

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

After a ton of research, I'm just about ready to embark on this. I'm very impressed with the depth and richness of TOG, and I'm excited to get started. If you're using it secularly, can you offer any advice or experience for me? We'll be starting with Year 2.

 

Also, I've read in some threads that the Classic version is easier to use secularly than the Redesign. Has anyone found that to be the case? Or do you think it doesn't matter really?

 

:lurk5:

 

Thanks in advance!

[k3bzr18]

Great question......following

:-)

[melmichigan]

I'm all ears. I have secularized Y1U4-Y4 so far. I am leaning toward the Redesign for the rest of Y1 because of the new updates. In Y2 I had my DD read some of the books others might skip because I think you need to understand the various religions in order to understand how they impacted history, especially in the middle ages.

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

I'm all ears. I have secularized Y1U4-Y4 so far. I am leaning toward the Redesign for the rest of Y1 because of the new updates. In Y2 I had my DD read some of the books others might skip because I think you need to understand the various religions in order to understand how they impacted history, especially in the middle ages.

 

 

Melissa, your older posts on this really helped me make my decision. Thanks for sharing what you have so far!

[delaney]

I'm all ears. I have secularized Y1U4-Y4 so far. I am leaning toward the Redesign for the rest of Y1 because of the new updates. In Y2 I had my DD read some of the books others might skip because I think you need to understand the various religions in order to understand how they impacted history, especially in the middle ages.

 

Would love to hear more about using year 1. I was really hoping to do the same thing for all 4 years but couldn't find a way to get around the overload of bible stuff in year 1. I want ancient history, not just on closed perspective. If you don't mind sharing......

[Kathryn]

I think year one would certainly be the most difficult to secularize. I'd think you could do it by expanding the weeks that don't focus on the Jews and compacting those weeks to just get a basic Judeo-Christian history in. There is more than enough to be able to focus on areas such as Egypt, Greece, and Rome in more detail, and you could even expand on the other cultures as well. Mesopotamian cultures would be easy to expand on, and so would India and China. It would take a bit of work, but I think it's doable if you really like the program.

[melmichigan]

You may wish to look on the high school board too. There is one poster in particular who has done this with R. She has answered some of my questions in the past, especially regarding year one.

 

In the new updates for year one there are supposed to be fewer weeks with only the Bible as history. I am waiting on the release of the poetics, which has been delayed, before I make a final decision. I am leaning towards redesign for continuity, and just getting the DE for now. I just ordered the Speolvogel text used in the alternative recommendations and Susan Wise Bauer's new high school ancient history book. SWB's text is now used in TPS for 7th to 10th grade ancient history. I also started a list of the books used in the updated year one on amazon and am working on book choices. I need to make some decisions regarding prehistory and the time leading up to Egypt.

[melmichigan]

I think year one would certainly be the most difficult to secularize. I'd think you could do it by expanding the weeks that don't focus on the Jews and compacting those weeks to just get a basic Judeo-Christian history in. There is more than enough to be able to focus on areas such as Egypt, Greece, and Rome in more detail, and you could even expand on the other cultures as well. Mesopotamian cultures would be easy to expand on, and so would India and China. It would take a bit of work, but I think it's doable if you really like the program.

 

 

This is exactly the track I am planning. :)

[freesia]

I think year one would certainly be the most difficult to secularize. I'd think you could do it by expanding the weeks that don't focus on the Jews and compacting those weeks to just get a basic Judeo-Christian history in. There is more than enough to be able to focus on areas such as Egypt, Greece, and Rome in more detail, and you could even expand on the other cultures as well. Mesopotamian cultures would be easy to expand on, and so would India and China. It would take a bit of work, but I think it's doable if you really like the program.

Another idea would be to skip parts and start year 2 early(doing it in more than a year). It is so jammed packed that having extra time would be nice.

[melmichigan]

 

Another idea would be to skip parts and start year 2 early(doing it in more than a year). It is so jammed packed that having extra time would be nice.

 

 

I only did Y2U1-U3 the year I did Y2, so this might also play into my plans for next year, especially when I will be moving my twins to D. It will be harder to condense Y4 for my R student when we get back there (which is how I made up the time this rotation). Thank you for the reminder.

[Kathryn]

 

Another idea would be to skip parts and start year 2 early(doing it in more than a year). It is so jammed packed that having extra time would be nice.

 

 

Good idea. I've finished planning year two and you're right, it is FULL!

[bethben]

Here's a different thought. Just use most of TOG, even year one, as is. As we've been studying the Greek gods, I am finding that understanding Ancient Greece and Rome leads to understanding other nuances in our culture. The same applies to Biblical knowledge. There are classic books that will refer to a bible story/ passage. Understanding the bible helps with understanding other literature and culture. There are undertones of the bible woven throughout our culture and a good student should at least have an understanding if it.

 

Beth

[Professormom]

If you are using Y2, I don't think you would have a hard time secularizing it some. Most of the 'religious aspects' come through the commentary in the notes (which is protestant/providential), the Bible/Worldview selections (which you obviously wouldn't be adding) and some of the supplementary material. The rest is, as a PP put it, just the biblical references that will be prevalent through the classics of the period and the kids will need that anyway for lit analysis later on.

 

I just put together my book list for Y2 next year with a UG and a D this morning - your timing in this question is excellent, lol - and the bulk of the primary selections are either fact books, like Castle (David Macaulay) or classics (age appropriate Canterbury Tales). Any selections that seem too religious-leaning would be pretty easy to sub for, and you would have to modify commentary in your mind as you read through it.

 

It really is a strong program, but if you are very offended by religious content, you may want to reconsider because it will be there every week in the notes. On the other hand, if you simply want to come at the material from a more neutral perspective, you should have a pretty easy time of it.

 

I will add to a PP comments in Y1. It would take a LOT of modification to 'secularize' year 1. It is VERY ha peavy on the Bible as primary source for a number of weeks. We are Christian and I still modified the schedule to condense some of the Jewish history and heavy bible weeks, because I wanted to go deeper into Rome and Greece. TOG has an odd way of breaking down history BECAUSE of their worldview. They want to emphasize Biblical history and then in Year 4, what modern issues look like in light of the Bible. That is why Year 2 is so heavy.

 

I basically took Year 1, condensed some Biblical history, added in a few more weeks of Greek and Roman, and tacked on the first 2 weeks of Year 2 to this year (year 1 for us). Then, I went through each week of Year 2 and padded where I felt we would want to go deeper. For example, Viking history needed more than one week in our testosterone-filled home:-). Renaissance is another area I like to dig into. So, I spread out weeks 2 through 26 of year 2 over a whole year. We will then pick up at Y2 week 27 for our year 3. I will have to do some shifting of yr 3 and 4, but I did that for our last run through and it worked out just fine.

 

I am also using OUP's medieval set to sub where needed as a spine. They are pricey, but you can pick them up one by one on the classifieds or used book sites:-)

 

So, sorry for the very convoluted (and way too lengthy) explanation. You just happened to post this right after I had worked all of this out in my head, you lucky lady you!

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

Thanks everyone! I'm shaking in my shoes over Year 1 too, though I have a few years before I have to really worry about it.

 

If you are using Y2, I don't think you would have a hard time secularizing it some. Most of the 'religious aspects' come through the commentary in the notes (which is protestant/providential), the Bible/Worldview selections (which you obviously wouldn't be adding) and some of the supplementary material. The rest is, as a PP put it, just the biblical references that will be prevalent through the classics of the period and the kids will need that anyway for lit analysis later on.

 

I just put together my book list for Y2 next year with a UG and a D this morning - your timing in this question is excellent, lol - and the bulk of the primary selections are either fact books, like Castle (David Macaulay) or classics (age appropriate Canterbury Tales). Any selections that seem too religious-leaning would be pretty easy to sub for, and you would have to modify commentary in your mind as you read through it.

 

 

This is pretty much how I understand it. I have Year 3 already (used curriculum store WIN!), so I think I have a good idea of what I'm looking at here. Now I just need to decide if I want to get the first unit as DE or try to find it used somewhere in print and wait or buy it new in print and wait or... I think I'm leaning toward DE so I can get started right away!

 

Um, if you would like to share any notes or lists you've put together that you feel are shareable, I'm all ears :lurk5: I'll have a LG kid and a UG or D kid, I'm not sure which she really is yet. Either way, thanks for the input!

[melmichigan]

I think I have said this before, and maybe it's just me being a "paper" person, but I really didn't get the big picture of where we were going with Y2 until I got the print edition in hand. I thought I had a good understanding with just the DE, which is what I started with, but once I had gone through the actual paper I realized that I had been kidding myself. YMMV. I need the DE for updates, but I need the paper to teach, if you get what I mean. :)

[Kathryn]

I think I have said this before, and maybe it's just me being a "paper" person, but I really didn't get the big picture of where we were going with Y2 until I got the print edition in hand. I thought I had a good understanding with just the DE, which is what I started with, but once I had gone through the actual paper I realized that I had been kidding myself. YMMV. I need the DE for updates, but I need the paper to teach, if you get what I mean. :)

 

This is how I am also, but I knew it and though Marcia Somerville tried to talk me out of print, I got DE+Print from the start. I use DE for printing and for the update option. I use the print to sit down to read and flip through and plan and get the big picture.

[melmichigan]

This is how I am also, but I knew it and though Marcia Somerville tried to talk me out of print, I got DE+Print from the start. I use DE for printing and for the update option. I use the print to sit down to read and flip through and plan and get the big picture.

 

Exactly. I had to print the new updated Y1U1 to decide if I'm going to use the rest of Y1. :lol:

[delaney]

In my next life I am going to write a secular TOG and buy a vacation home.

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

I think I have said this before, and maybe it's just me being a "paper" person, but I really didn't get the big picture of where we were going with Y2 until I got the print edition in hand. I thought I had a good understanding with just the DE, which is what I started with, but once I had gone through the actual paper I realized that I had been kidding myself. YMMV. I need the DE for updates, but I need the paper to teach, if you get what I mean. :)

 

 

What is different about the print version vs. the DE version? Do you just mean that you couldn't really comprehend it until you saw it on paper? I just bought the DE of Y2U1(because I'm still a little on the fence about how well it work for us) and spent half the day printing it. I really can't afford the print + DE version if there's no way to recoup any of my investment :(

 

(That said, I'm very much a paper person too, which is why the very first thing I did was print the whole dang thing out!)

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

In my next life I am going to write a secular TOG and buy a vacation home.

 

 

Amen to that, sister.

[Georgiana Daniels]

 

 

This is how I am also, but I knew it and though Marcia Somerville tried to talk me out of print, I got DE+Print from the start. I use DE for printing and for the update option. I use the print to sit down to read and flip through and plan and get the big picture.

 

 

I'm curious why she tried to talk you out of it?

 

Like you, I need the print to get the big picture. DE is for updates and if I need to reprint some pages.

[delaney]

Can you cut and paste with the DE? I would like to move things around

[Kathryn]

 

 

I'm curious why she tried to talk you out of it?

 

Like you, I need the print to get the big picture. DE is for updates and if I need to reprint some pages.

 

She thought it was a waste of money. It was obvious that her brain just works differently than mine in that regard, because she just didn't grasp the concept of needing it all in print form. She was saying how I could print what I needed from DE and that print really only made sense for people who didn't have access to a reliable Internet connection or who wanted to be able to resell. But, I wanted the whole thing printed out, and it made more sense for me to buy both.

[Kathryn]

Can you cut and paste with the DE? I would like to move things around

 

Only the student activity pages.

[melmichigan]

What is different about the print version vs. the DE version? Do you just mean that you couldn't really comprehend it until you saw it on paper? I just bought the DE of Y2U1(because I'm still a little on the fence about how well it work for us) and spent half the day printing it. I really can't afford the print + DE version if there's no way to recoup any of my investment :(

 

(That said, I'm very much a paper person too, which is why the very first thing I did was print the whole dang thing out!)

 

Exactly. I bought Y2 DE, and thought I had a grip on everything. Then Y2 print went on sale when they were trying to get rid of the print that year (it was as cheaper than printing it myself which I hadn't been doing because of cost).

 

I am having more trouble with Y1 right now. I have Speilvogel, The History of the Ancient World, The Human Odyssey, SOTW 1, Sonlight Cores 1 and 6, and TOG Y1 (what units I own on DE) and I'm trying to figure out how I'm going to put this all together into a secular Ancient History for LG/UG, D, and R. :willy_nilly: :banghead: Secularizing Y1 isn't going to be as easy as I had hoped, even with what I have of the updates for Y1. I'm going to go take a walk outside now. :leaving:

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

Exactly. I bought Y2 DE, and thought I had a grip on everything. Then Y2 print went on sale when they were trying to get rid of the print that year (it was as cheaper than printing it myself which I hadn't been doing because of cost).

 

I am having more trouble with Y1 right now. I have Speilvogel, The History of the Ancient World, Journey Across Time, The Human Odyssey, SOTW 1, Sonlight Cores 1 and 6, and TOG Y1 (what units I own on DE) and I'm trying to figure out how I'm going to put this all together into a secular Ancient History for LG/UG, D, and R. :willy_nilly: :banghead: Secularizing Y1 isn't going to be as easy as I had hoped, even with what I have of the updates for Y1. I'm going to go take a walk outside now. :leaving:

 

Ah, got it, thanks. Yeah, I'm the same way. I did print almost everything--the intro and all of the student/teacher/assignment pages--even the rhetoric level stuff that I shouldn't need. I'm only going to print the Loom sections as needed though.

 

I don't envy you the Year 1 legwork! I have no clue what I'll do when I get there. I'm hoping that using TOG for the next three years (I'm being optimistic!) will give me enough experience to be able to pull together Ancients in a similar way on my own by then.