How long do you let your grammar stage child work on a difficult math problem?

[Esse Quam Videri]

And when do you step in and give the correct answer?

[Arcadia]

If it is their school work, they do until they solve it. The only help I give is if the question is ambiguous and subject to misinterpretation. If it is math enrichment, than they work at it until they give up. Than we work through the problem together, some of which even hubby and I have to think hard.

 

Do you mean the correct answer as in the final answer and kids can reverse engineer to figure out how to get there, or correct answer as in the worked solutions?

[Esse Quam Videri]

It was a SM IP Challenge question. I usually work the more difficult ones with her, but I'm trying to encourage her to try them on her own. Sometimes I think she doesn't really apply herself because she is used to me giving her a "hint" after a few minutes. But I also don't want her working on the same problem for an hour...

[MinivanMom]

It depends on their frustration level. I try to let them work on it on their own, but I will give them a hint if they are getting too frustrated. Sometimes we will work them together if they are very frustrated. I am always very careful to praise their effort. I want them to understand that hard work is good in math (or any other subject). My overall goal (thinking very long-term) is to help them get to a place where they are willing and able to work on a challenging problem for an hour or more without feeling that that's a cause for frustration. Isn't that what mathematicians and engineers do?

 

Note: I'm speaking of extra-challenging problems here not regular math assignments.

[brownie]

If a kid was willing to keep working on it, I wouldn't step in. I wish my kids had that high of a frustration thresh hold. On the other hand I would try to step in before frustration if we're talking about a long time. If you could catch it right at the correct moment...and then praise determination and perseverance, not the answer whether right or wrong.

[Dana]

I've had my son set a problem aside for the day and look at it again the next day. I'd expect that with an IP Challenge problem :)

The longest it's taken was 3 days at about 20 min a day. Sometimes it's the act of stepping away that makes it easier when he returns to it.

[Alice]

When my son was younger (about the age of your kids) I would usually work the IP Challenge problems with him. I figured he got a lot out of the discussion. I think you have to know your kid. Mine is very good at Math but not a math lover. He would sit there and get frustrated if it was too hard. I felt like it was more important at that age for him to think of math as something enjoyable (not necessarily fun but that the work and effort was enjoyable). He liked doing them when we approached it as a puzzle that we were doing together.

 

I’d say somewhere in the past year we’ve transitioned to him doing the problems on his own. I started by only assigning him one a day and telling him he needed to work on it for a mininum amount of time, something fairly short like 15 minutes. If he wanted he could keep working on it but if not he could bring it to me and we’d work on it together again. Then we worked up to just having him do them on his own. He can always ask for help and he knows that but now I wouldn’t do it with him as much as maybe give him a clue or a suggestion. (If I can figure it out. :)).

 

I like the idea of having them struggle with the problem but for us it took some baby steps to get there. But I’ve seen the payoff for us. At the end of say second grade he used to grumble about “being bad at mathâ€. I think that was because I pushed a good student too hard. I backed off a little and let him go slower and did the challenging problems with him. He now rarely needs help with the challenging problems, and if we are doing it together he is just as much helping me figure it out as I am him. He’s also very confident about math even if he still isn’t one of those kids who just adores math (and he probably never will be).

 

I think an added benefit to doing it with them is that they see you think a little and wrestle with the problems and then see math as something that is kind of interesting to do at all ages and not just something to do “in schoolâ€.

 

Shorter answer: It depends. :) I think you do have to know your kid and walk the line between doing it for them and letting them getting frustrated to the point where it’s non-productive.

[Esse Quam Videri]

She wasn't frustrated at all, but perhaps I was :001_unsure:. Probably another example of my results oriented PS mentality. I just wasn't sure if going around in circles and using trial and error was actually beneficial or not. In the future, perhaps I should let her work at her own pace and in her own way as long as she is content? And I do like the idea of coming back to it the next day.

[Alice]

She wasn't frustrated at all, but perhaps I was :001_unsure:. Probably another example of my results oriented PS mentality. I just wasn't sure if going around in circles and using trial and error was actually beneficial or not. In the future, perhaps I should let her work at her own pace and in her own way as long as she is content? And I do like the idea of coming back to it the next day.

 

Oh, well that’s different. I was reading your post, imagining my own house. :) If she isn’t frustrated I’d let her work as long as it takes. I also like the idea of coming back to it later.

[kiwik]

Maybe offer he a snack when you think she is ready for a break.

[Greenmama2]

DD worked on a couple of Beast Academy geometry puzzles for an hour this morning. She was frustrated though & honestly I probably had her persevere *because* of her frustration. She was over the moon when she finally solved them :) I don't think taking a break or putting it away until tomorrow would have been helpful in our situation today. I have done it with other things though.

[boscopup]

My oldest is 8 and melts down easily with challenge. I don't make him puzzle very long on a problem. That said, I will use Socratic questioning to help him find the answer on his own. I don't just tell him how to do it.

 

And sometimes, just reading the problem out loud makes him suddenly get it. :rolleyes:

 

I have increased the time gradually, but at this stage, I still don't make him puzzle long. He shuts down completely if I try. So we're just pushing along and gradually increasing his tolerance level. Now if he was willing to puzzle over it without bursting into tears, I'd let him puzzle as long as he needed to! :D

[mathwonk]

The best teachers I knew in college and grad school never gave the solution, (as opposed to the "answer"). Some problems are still outstanding, (not still working on it though), after more than 40 years. The view is there is no benefit in being given the solution.

 

That does not mean forcing anyone to stay at a problem that has lost interest or appeal. But if they want the solution, they need to solve it. Leading questions are often helpful. But the goal is not to take away the "aha!" moment for the learner.

 

Sometimes giving just the bare final answer still leaves room for the student to figure out the path to it. That has helped me in several cases. "I believe this is the answer, but I don't understand why." My thesis adviser gave me some hints like that. But even that should probably be done only sparingly.

 

if the learner is frustrated, the problems can be made easier, so he/she can approach them. One gradually learns what degree of difficulty allows a feeling of success. One often has to modify the problem given in the book to suit the preparation of the student.

 

Divide it into steps and ask only one step, or make the numbers smaller and easier, or the figure simpler.

[Julie of KY]

I don't think it is a matter of how hard the problem is or if it is enrichment. I look at the frustration level and if the child is making progress. If they are totally lost or frustrated it only makes sense to step in. If "I" think it is taking too long, I will ask if it is going okay, do they need help? My daughter is slow and puzzles over problems way longer than my boys ever did, but it doesn't frustratrate her. Eventually she gets to the correct answer usually and then can tell me how she did it.