DD10 didn't "get" The Necklace (WWS Literary Analysis selection)

[Chrysalis Academy]

Ok, so we are working on the second week of LIterary Analysis in WWS, week 24. Yesterday, dd10 read The Necklace. Today, when we began to discuss it, she told me she didn't get it. She didn't understand what happened, or the significance. It went completely over her head.

 

I was really surprised. I had her read it aloud, and I explained the things that she didn't understand. Turns out it had a lot to do with the French names, and the French words for money (she didn't have a grasp of the relative quantities - the value of the necklace, vs. the value of the fake), and all the issues about loans - she didn't know about usury, and didn't really get why they borrowed money from different people, and why the borrowing was so ruinous. Anyway, like I said, when I explained all this, she understood the story, and we had a good discussion, and she was able to do all of the literary analysis tasks - she could identify Mme Loisel as both the protagonist and antagonist, for example. She'll write her analysis tomorrow, and I guess I'll see then whether she *actually* got it.

 

But I guess I'm wondering . . . how concerned should I be that she didn't understand this story? It does have some unfamiliar foreign elements and vocabulary. But it gives me pause as I'm thinking about books and stories to read, discuss, assign in the future. Last thing I want to be doing is "rushing" into the classics before she's ready . . . but I'm trying to be sure we are laying the foundation now so that she *will* be able to read and enjoy books like this . . . I'm wondering if I'm doing enough? Maybe we should be reading and discussing more short stories, more "period pieces" or something? We are doing MCT's lit-based vocabulary, and it's going really well, great retention. She reads a ton.

 

I guess I'm just surprised that this story seemed to go so totally over her head, and I'm looking for . . . suggestions? reassurance? Anyone who's done WWS, how did your 5th grader do with this story?

[8filltheheart]

I wouldn't worry. I don't do lit ana with 10 yr olds and my kids have had no problems transitioning into it when they are older. Some things they just start to get when their brains have matured a few more yrs.

[Halcyon]

My son just finished that week and he too had problems understanding that story. It didn't go completely over his head but the names confused him. He also didn't get that at the end of the story the necklace turned out to be pretty worthless. He also didn't understand the idea that someone would work for years and years to repay something~ he wanted to know why they didn't just TELL the friend what had happened. So you aren't alone. I think it was confusing because in this day and age it would be hard to see this sort of thing happening, so it was hard to relate.

[regentrude]

I would not worry. I don't think it is a story written for 10 year olds. I also do not do any formal lit analysis at that age; they can learn that in high school just fine.

[Lori D.]

DISREGARD !

 

aargghh! Just discovered my long response was to the WRONG program ! ! !

 

 

(thank you RootAnn!)

[dbmamaz]

i still remember being angry about that story, about how ridiculous it was that she didnt just talk to her friend before she threw her entire life away for stupid pride. pretty sure i was 11. Ok, so i didnt become a lit major . . .

[Chrysalis Academy]

Agreeing with 8FilltheHeart, that 10yo is quite young for literary analysis. And "The Necklace" is not a beginner story to analyze -- it is usually done in late high school and/or college courses. (For example, one of our DSs just covered it in his college WRT102 class.) I know the story seems simple enough, but I just don't think young students have the life experience to connect with or understand the subtle emotional content there...

 

And "Fight With a Cannon" and "A Jury of Her Peers" (stories later in WttW) will be even harder, as esp. the second one is far more subtle than "The Necklace".

 

Just wondering -- not meaning any offense at all -- why so early with WttW?? It is designed for high school. I'd wait until grade 8 or 9 -- and after having used WttW with our DSs, I'd suggest that if a student hasn't had much literary analysis prior or isn't strong in critical thinking/analyzing, I'd wait until 10th-11th grade to do WttW... JMO! :)

 

One suggestion is to set WttW aside for now, and do another "unit" of it later on after doing some other literary analysis. We broke WttW into units and spread it out over 2 years, so I know that option it is quite do-able. ;)

 

Perhaps try going through Figuratively Speaking, and look for those elements in whatever you are reading.

 

Or if you've already done that or don't need that, perhaps use a meaty individual lit. guide with a single work to finish out the school year?

 

Or, to focus on literary analysis and "build up" to "The Necklace": would the Lightning Lit 7 or 8 programs be possibilities for early gentle literary analysis? Or the Christian Light Education Reading gr. 6, gr. 7, or gr. 8 (literary elements and worksheets)? Or the Bob Jones Explorations in Literature (classic Literature, excerpts, literary analysis)? Or the Mosdos Literature series (short stories literary analysis)?

 

Or, some go with some short stories that may be a better fit for your DD's age:

BEST short stories... or any others in the series (middle school material for Literature)

Favorite short stories/essays for 5th/6th grades (great ideas for "no slouch" CLASSIC Literature for middle school)

Quality Lit appropriate for middle school students

 

 

Just trying to be helpful. Disregard if all of this is off the mark. :) BEST of luck in your Literature adventures! Warmly, Lori D.

 

 

 

This story is actually in Writing With Skill, which is designed (arguably ;) ) for 5th graders, which is why I was a little concerned - I was just kinda trusting that if SWB put that story in her middle-grade writing book, it must be what was expected of 5th graders . . . but you guys are making me feel a lot better!

 

I will check out the lit selections above, thanks for that. I don't have any particular attachment to starting literary analysis with a 10 yo, again, it was just "the next thing" in WWS. We've had a lot of discussions on this board lately about what age is actually most appropriate for WWS, despite its billing as a 5th grade writing program. As I've posted before, though, it is a *big* step up from SWB's own recommendations for 5th grade writing in her Middle Grade Writing lectures.

 

So, just because your 5th grader *can* do WWS, does it mean she *should*? Or does it just push you into asking too much too early, in terms of reading level, analyis, etc.? This is something I'm thinking about almost every day right now . . . .

[TarynB]

As I've posted before, though, it is a *big* step up from SWB's own recommendations for 5th grade writing in her Middle Grade Writing lectures.

 

So, just because your 5th grader *can* do WWS, does it mean she *should*? Or does it just push you into asking too much too early, in terms of reading level, analyis, etc.? This is something I'm thinking about almost every day right now . . . .

 

 

I'm thinking about it a lot lately as well. I bought WWS over a year ago, and every time I think about starting it, I decide DS still isn't at the optimum level of readiness. I think he could do the work now, but what I'm reading and learning here on the boards is that he'll benefit even more from it later. I don't always think later is better than earlier, but I'm starting to lean that way with this particular thing. Hmmm . . . .

 

Thank you for posting this and for the discussion, ladies.

[Chrysalis Academy]

DISREGARD !

 

aargghh! Just discovered my long response was to the WRONG program ! ! !

 

 

(thank you RootAnn!)

 

 

Oh, Lori, no! It was really helpful, and thank you for all the suggestions! I'm glad I rescued it in my reply. I'm clicking through all the links right now!! It really helps me to try and figure out if there is something better I could be doing with my 10 yo right now, and maybe save WWS for later? The thing is, she is really strong in language arts, and was bored to tears with WWE, and needed something more, so I started WWS as "the next thing." I've not regretted using it, she has learned a ton, but I do often question whether it's the right time, the right thing, for right now, or whether we should be focusing more on writing across the curriculum, and just reading and talking about books, and save this more formal writing instruction for later. I go back and forth on this on a weekly, if not daily, basis!!!

[purplelily]

Possibly do writing at a slower pace. Try a different program for the time being.

[Lori D.]

Oh, Lori, no! It was really helpful, and thank you for all the suggestions!

 

 

Rose, you are so very gracious! Glad it was of help... And thanks for being so kind about my boo-boo. :blushing:

 

And... ahem... I will try and pay just a little bit more attention to what is actually asked in the future... :001_rolleyes: (it was even obvious all caps in the heading, for crying out loud! :tongue_smilie: )

[Cosmos]

Oh, Lori, no! It was really helpful, and thank you for all the suggestions! I'm glad I rescued it in my reply. I'm clicking through all the links right now!! It really helps me to try and figure out if there is something better I could be doing with my 10 yo right now, and maybe save WWS for later? The thing is, she is really strong in language arts, and was bored to tears with WWE, and needed something more, so I started WWS as "the next thing." I've not regretted using it, she has learned a ton, but I do often question whether it's the right time, the right thing, for right now, or whether we should be focusing more on writing across the curriculum, and just reading and talking about books, and save this more formal writing instruction for later. I go back and forth on this on a weekly, if not daily, basis!!!

 

Are there other lessons that are hard for her to grasp or is the literary analysis the first? One thing to consider is that the literary analysis sections are not connected in any way to the rest of the book. It would be very easy to skip those lessons and come back to them in another year (or more).

 

Have you considered trying your alternate approach (writing across the curriculum) for a month and then see how you and she feel? Maybe that would help give you peace about what's the right choice for right now.

 

I feel that WWS is at the perfect level for my son right now. It's still a challenge, honestly, even in 7th grade, but he has the tools to do the writing. He has been really enjoying the literary analysis lessons, in particular, as if it's a whole new way to look at stories. I would hate for your dd to miss out on that "Wow! Cool!" feeling, if she's not quite ready for it yet.

[Halcyon]

FWIW, we just read the OHenry story, and on my son's first pass, he was like "I don't even know what's happening here." So we read it again, together, pausing and discussing a bit and he was cracking up--thought it was the funniest thing he'd read all year. He is definitely an auditory learner, however, so that may have had something to do with it, kwim?

[amsunshine]

I wouldn't worry about your dd not understanding some of the story. Your discussion with her sounded fantastic and I would look at this as a wonderful enrichment experience for her! My dds understood the story, but they also study French, so perhaps that was helpful. I think the "literary analysis" of this story in WWS is misunderstood by some other posters -- it's a very, very gentle introduction, and this story is used to simply illustrate and discuss the ideas of protagonist/antagonist and the fact that the protagonist sometimes can be his/her own antagonist in a story. I don't think these are difficult concepts for a 10 year old, and, it seems your dd understood them -- it was just some of the aspects of the story itself that she initially had a hard time with. That's ok -- life experiences are different for everyone, and sometimes different ideas need further explanation. I don't think that in this case, you should be worried or think you need to switch writing programs. It sounds like your dd did perfectly fine with the lesson, imo.

[Create Your Ritual]

I would try not to overthink it. Sometimes certain stories are not easy to understand. I don't remember us struggling with The Necklace, but at the same time I find the tools that you are learning in WWS to be pretty valuable even at the 5th grade level. It doesn't all HAVE to come together right now, as long as you are willing to wait to see the big picture.

 

If I were to equate this to a different subject, it would be compared to Math Mammoth or something like that .. you master certain sections of material and then go back the next year and build on to them a little bit more adding to your 'tool belt' with each level.

 

If she didn't really grasp the story right off the bat then I think you did the perfect thing by discussing it with her. Too often worksheets are just handed to kids to fill out and turn in and there isn't that discussion. The issues that she initially had with understanding it might be the very thing that leads to a deeper discussion between the two of you. Obviously if she is having problems understanding every single week then I might rethink it, but if this is a relatively isolated incident then I would do it and move on as long as you see growth in her writing skills.

 

I am always for moving sideways if that is the case. Find something like Classical Composition or perhaps Killgallon sentences to bring in to your day to let loose that more creative side of writing. The Creative Writer by Peace Hill Press is also an option. But academic writing is academic writing, and I have found a lot of value with starting my kids at this age. We are beta testing for WWS2 and happen to be digging into Week 16 - poetry analysis .. so I can see where she is going with it.

[Chrysalis Academy]

Are there other lessons that are hard for her to grasp or is the literary analysis the first? One thing to consider is that the literary analysis sections are not connected in any way to the rest of the book. It would be very easy to skip those lessons and come back to them in another year (or more).

 

Have you considered trying your alternate approach (writing across the curriculum) for a month and then see how you and she feel? Maybe that would help give you peace about what's the right choice for right now.

 

I feel that WWS is at the perfect level for my son right now. It's still a challenge, honestly, even in 7th grade, but he has the tools to do the writing. He has been really enjoying the literary analysis lessons, in particular, as if it's a whole new way to look at stories. I would hate for your dd to miss out on that "Wow! Cool!" feeling, if she's not quite ready for it yet.

 

 

This is the first one where she didn't get the reading passage, until we discussed it further. And I don't think it is that the basic LA ideas are over her head, because we've been using those basic questions to talk about literature for awhile now (figuring out the protagonist, antagonist, conflict, etc.) and she's seems very comfortable with them. And she totally got the story, and the use of the literary terms, once I explained more about the background, and what was going on. I just think this story was over her head at first pass, due to lack of famliarity with the time period and terminology involved.

 

We did decide a few weeks ago to intersperse our weeks of WWS with weeks of other writing across the curriculum, and reading/discussing Essay Voyage. It's a really good mix for us, so we will definitely carry on with WWS. I just sometimes second guess myself: my dd can be so mature, so articulate, that sometimes I forget that she's just 10, with the life and literary experience of a 10 year old . . .

 

Anyway, this whole discussion has been very useful, and I especially appreciated hearing from some of you who have been using WWS with younger kids, or who are familiar with this particular story. It doesn't sound like our experience was too extreme of an outlier after all!

[Chrysalis Academy]

FWIW, we just read the OHenry story, and on my son's first pass, he was like "I don't even know what's happening here." So we read it again, together, pausing and discussing a bit and he was cracking up--thought it was the funniest thing he'd read all year. He is definitely an auditory learner, however, so that may have had something to do with it, kwim?

 

 

Thanks for the heads up on that - maybe I'll just have her read it aloud to me, rather than sending her off to read it on her own!

 

I do think that the style of a lot of short stories - that hook or twist at the end - does require a level of maturity to appreciate. A lot of kids at a younger age are just like, "Whahhh? What just happened?" or they get upset because it isn't fair, or just, or happy. It's the same with the tolerance for sad endings, in books or movies or whatever. I don't think she's quite there yet, I think she still sees the world as a mostly sunny, happy place and doesn't really enjoy literature that rains on that particular parade. Which is fine for now! So I do try to be choosy about what books I hand her or assign her for school. Not censorious, necessarily, but just choosy, because I think that childhood innocence is worth protecting, it will be assaulted soon enough - no reason to have your bubble burst by your mother, kwim?

[Chrysalis Academy]

I would try not to overthink it. Sometimes certain stories are not easy to understand. I don't remember us struggling with The Necklace, but at the same time I find the tools that you are learning in WWS to be pretty valuable even at the 5th grade level. It doesn't all HAVE to come together right now, as long as you are willing to wait to see the big picture.

 

If I were to equate this to a different subject, it would be compared to Math Mammoth or something like that .. you master certain sections of material and then go back the next year and build on to them a little bit more adding to your 'tool belt' with each level.

 

If she didn't really grasp the story right off the bat then I think you did the perfect thing by discussing it with her. Too often worksheets are just handed to kids to fill out and turn in and there isn't that discussion. The issues that she initially had with understanding it might be the very thing that leads to a deeper discussion between the two of you. Obviously if she is having problems understanding every single week then I might rethink it, but if this is a relatively isolated incident then I would do it and move on as long as you see growth in her writing skills.

 

I am always for moving sideways if that is the case. Find something like Classical Composition or perhaps Killgallon sentences to bring in to your day to let loose that more creative side of writing. The Creative Writer by Peace Hill Press is also an option. But academic writing is academic writing, and I have found a lot of value with starting my kids at this age. We are beta testing for WWS2 and happen to be digging into Week 16 - poetry analysis .. so I can see where she is going with it.

 

 

SaDonna, thanks for chiming in, I knew you had done this with a 5th grader, so appreciate your perspective. I am doing what you suggest - not putting WWS aside, but allowing for breaks to do different kinds of writing, and to talk about writing from a whole-to-parts perspective, like Ruth was talking about in her recent WWS post.

 

A couple of weeks ago I let her do a series of papers that were all horse-themed, as horses and horseback riding are her current obsessions. She wrote a nice chronological sequence paper on horse grooming, and she wrote a lovely description of the writing stable. So it is nice to see her using the topos/skills from WWS, and being able to apply what she has learned to other assignments.

[Penelope]

Ds10 did not have trouble with this story, and incidentally, it is included in a book I have called Short stories for Middle School, or something like that, can't remember the exact title at the moment. Now fifth grade is not considered middle school where I live, but it's close. ;)

 

I think discussing is the way to go. There are many short stories I plan to read with him over the next coupe of years, and I know we'll have to discuss them a little bit for him to "get" them.

 

I posted before that ds had a hard time with the passages in week 31, or was it 30. The one where they are to take notes and write a short paper with citations on Marie Antoinette. There was nothing tricky about it from a literature perspective, but with a lot of unfamiliar terms (courtesan?! That was a fun one to try to explain) and other issues, we needed to discuss a lot. So at first, I was a little dismayed and worried about his comprehension. But I don't think he has problems in general, it just seems that the level of this passage for this particular topic was advanced, for him.

[Trish]

 

 

SaDonna, thanks for chiming in, I knew you had done this with a 5th grader, so appreciate your perspective. I am doing what you suggest - not putting WWS aside, but allowing for breaks to do different kinds of writing, and to talk about writing from a whole-to-parts perspective, like Ruth was talking about in her recent WWS post.

 

A couple of weeks ago I let her do a series of papers that were all horse-themed, as horses and horseback riding are her current obsessions. She wrote a nice chronological sequence paper on horse grooming, and she wrote a lovely description of the writing stable. So it is nice to see her using the topos/skills from WWS, and being able to apply what she has learned to other assignments.

 

 

Just to play off your typo -- that gave me a cute image -- a Writing Stable!

 

Like a think tank for earnest middle school writers....

 

:laugh:

[Chrysalis Academy]

Just to play off your typo -- that gave me a cute image -- a Writing Stable!

 

Like a think tank for earnest middle school writers....

 

:laugh:

 

Oh, that's hilarious! My Freudian slip is showing!

 

I got another reminder tonight about how - different - the world is to a 10 year old girl. We were talking about Sherlock Holmes - I've read a loud several of his novels and short stories, and last Friday night we went to see a play of Hound of the Baskervilles. Dd loves Holmes.

 

Well, it turns out that all this time, she thought "Sherlock" was another word for "detective" - that it was Holmes's title - He's "Sherlock" Holmes, like Watson is "Doctor" Watson!!!

 

:lol: :lol: :lol: