Math suggestions for DD beginning to homeschool in 5th grade

[SuzySparkle]

Good morning! I am new as a poster here but have been stalking the forum for months.

 

I have two DDs (4th grader almost 10 yrs old and 1st grader just turned 7). Both have always been in ps. DD7 thrives there. DD9 has some struggles. She tests in the gifted range for math on PASS and MAP tests and close to that higher range for reading but is not part of the G/T program at her school. She has been diagnosed with ADHD-Inattentive Type and loves books but rarely finishes one on her own. She is easily frustrated, loves learning new math/science concepts, and hates busywork.

 

Due to the fact that I am having to "helicopter mom" her at school and still having to basically re-teach her each subject at home, we are seriously considering homeschooling 5th grade and middle school. My husband and I are fully on board, and she is almost certain that she would like to try it next year. I want her fully committed before we take the plunge!

 

As part of my prep for 5th grade, I am researching curriculum choices. I am leaning toward a classical education with a strong math/science section and am beginning my course selection with math. I am finding the choices overwhelming but have been steadily reviewing each choice, looking at excerpts, and reading reviews on this forum. Despite my best efforts, I am struggling with all of the choices.

 

First, it seems like 5th grade math is near the "end" of the lower math levels, so something like Singapore wouldn't be good since we never trained in their method.

 

Second, based on her ps test scores, dd would possibly place into Math 6/7/8 when she entered public middle school. If that happened, she would possibly take Algebra I in 7th grade and Geometry in 8th grade. I say possibly, because that determination would not be made until winter of her 5th grade year. I want whatever math choice we make to fully prepare her to handle whatever math she wants to pursue.

 

Three, I would prefer a program that has a "clean appearance" like the Sylvan Math Success books. We both like how they are not fussy and how each step of a problem being worked out is in a different color font from the rest of the problem. It really works well with her focus issues.

 

Four, as her teacher, I would want a solutions manual that shows step-by-step solutions for EVERY problem. My husband is an engineer and math whiz, but I am only math competent, having topped out at Trig. :p

 

Any suggestions or direction would be much appreciated as I continue my research. I have already been looking into Saxon, AoPS, LoF, and several others.

 

Thanks!!!

Susan

[wapiti]

When I pulled my dd out of school in the middle of 4th, we used Math Mammoth 4 and 5 (and later AoPS Prealgebra). MM is all-in-one book, with instruction written directly to the student. The pages can be a bit crowded sometimes (but not like a PS textbook) - I did not assign all the problems on a page except for pages with few problems or where she needed a bit more practice (this was rare).

 

There are lots of free samples on the website, so see what you think of the page layout. Singapore would have a cleaner layout. The layout is not a small matter, though my dd did not have trouble with it (she has had issues but adhd isn't one of them). If you don't find a math program that is sufficiently clean, consider using a white board instead, taking the lesson from the book and teaching on the white board yourself, and/or having your dd work problems on the white board instead of on paper. (Also, MM has some sort of option for filling in the work on a computer or ipad, and my impression is that it might be possible to expand the view of the page, larger, on screen, simultaneously looking at only a portion of the page - that could go a long way toward addressing a page layout issue).

 

It's easy to accelerate through for a fast learner and easy to slow down where necessary. It is similar to Singapore in that it is Asian-style, but it is not an impossible challenge to learn a bar-method for word problem solving. Chapter 1 of level 5 would provide ample introduction to solving word problems with bar models - that chapter is well worth taking your time through. That chapter also has lots of review of prior levels. I think it's easy to jump in at that level, as that chapter provides a good transition.

 

If she is already proficient with decimals and fractions, which form the bulk of MM 5, you might consider MM 6 instead. MM 6 does include review of topics taught in lower levels. MM 6 also includes some traditionally "prealgebra" topics (we did some of those and skipped others while moving on to prealgebra).

[dbmamaz]

actually, i'm using Singaporemath.com 's discovering mathematics. you can buy the teachers book with the worked problems. the higher levels singapore books (starting at 7th grade level) dont use the bar method. the sequence starts with pre-algebra, basically.

 

other things to consider - the 'key to' series - very straight-forward and written to the kid

 

Art of Problem Solving - probably not a good fit. its discovery method, to lead the child to figure it out themselves. great for kids who like puzzles, but there arent clear sample problems in the same way.

 

Life of Fred - starting with the fractions book, probably - story-based, silly, very few problems. some ppl like them better as a supplement, but often recommended for kids who dont need much practice.

[dereksurfs]

CLE really works well for our girls because of its gentle spiral nature vs. a mastery approach which a number of the others are. Based upon what you've described I would recommend at least checking this out as an option. The biggest difference with CLE spiral is that it introduces new concepts, then moves on to others vs. going on and on over the same thing. Then it comes back to these concepts and develops them further in future lessons. The nice part is that it is not as monotonous as other programs with plenty of variety per lesson. It is also designed to be more independent, essentially being written toward the student. I would think she places in CLE 600 or 700 based on her previous placement tests. There is a free placement test here: http://www.clp.org/d...sts_500-800.pdf

 

A great thing to do after your research is to narrow it down to a 'few' select options. Then include her in the evaluation process. You can do this through looking over the samples with her and demo'ing when possible. This will help her gain a sense of ownership in her new math curriculum. Of course you will still have the final say. But you can then consider her input as a factor as well. This also helps to avoid that program which while sounding good to you she absolutely hates. :closedeyes: Quite a few of us have experienced that one which leads to starting your search over again. This is your opportunity to really tailor a math program around her unique needs and skills.

[Stuart]

I love math mammoth. It is so easy to use, effective and very economical.

[TarynB]

Your DD sounds a lot like my DS10, even down to the PS experience. I second the recommendation of Math Mammoth. It is written to the student, clean layout (although I agree the pages are a bit too crowded sometimes to allow showing all your work on the page, so we just work on graph paper when needed), not too cluttered or colorful, easy to accelerate where needed. It is hard to place some kids correctly in math coming out of PS. Whether you decide to start her in level 5 or 6, you could easily have her "test out" of certain chapters using the chapter reviews and chapter tests, until you decide where to dig in and start with new concepts. It is easy to do that with Math Mammoth, and easy to speed through sections that she already knows without missing anything important because the teaching is so incremental. Inexpensive program but very good, IMO. It teaches concepts, like Singapore does (as opposed to having student just memorize formulas w/o knowing why), but closer to "traditional" math than Singapore (like I was taught so that I can relate and help DS as needed). Good luck!

[Tasia]

We're big Math Mammoth fans too! My middle boys (3rd and 4th graders) are using it for the first time this year after coming out of public school and they're both doing great. We're also using Life of Fred and Singapore Challenging Word Problems, and math is their favorite subject! If you wanted to use either of these, I'd start with LOF Fractions and CWP 4. I'd have her take the MM placement test to be sure, but she'll probably test into MM 5.

[AK_Mom4]

I strongly strongly strongly urge you to NOT use the PS testing results for math placement when you start homeschooling. You definitely want her to take the placement tests with whichever curriculum you choose. Most recommend giving the placement tests until the student scores under 80%.

 

Placement tests are super important because each curriculum has a slightly different scope and sequence. Try not to freak out if the placement test shows higher or lower than you expect.

 

We don't use Math Mammoth or Life of Fred, though they are popular here on the WTM boards. For some ADHD-type kids, you want to avoid materials with busy or cluttered pages as they can look overwhelming. Take a look at samples of different publishers with your DDs talents and aptitude in mind. Teaching Textbooks is one that I recommend looking at, especially if your kiddo responds well to video explanations. CLE is nice too. In the middle school levels, we like Saxon as well.

[SuzySparkle]

Thank you, everyone! I like the look of CLE and Math Mammoth. I was curious though. It seems there are a huge number of people who use the Singapore primary series, but switch to something else instead of trying their older series. Is it not as effective?

 

AK_Mom4, thanks for the placement test tip! I actually was thinking along those same lines. DD tests super high on ps tests, but she can still struggle to remember some basic rules. My take on the testing has always been that she has the APTITUDE to go deep into math, but that her problems focusing in the classroom mean that she can sometimes tune out on basic arithmetic training.

 

My goal would be to find out where a chosen curriculum places her (even if it's lower than I thought her capable), then make sure she has a rock-solid foundation on which to place all her higher math training. I'm a realist, so I know there's no guarantee she'll race to the top in math, but I would like to give her a solid enough base to do so if we get into the one-on-one training and discover she is whipping through it!

 

Thank you all again!!! I'll keep on researching. :)

[dbmamaz]

I've asked before about why ppl switch away from singapore. i think there are 3 main reasons

 

1. the primary math is colorful and interesting. the upper level math is very textbooky, and some ppl dont like that

2. The singapore books are intended for classroom use, and some parents found them intimidating to teach. it used to be that most of the upper level singapore books did not have full worked-out problems/teacher manuals. They have gotten rid of those old series and i think all the current series have full teachers guides. but some ppl prefer to switch to a video-taught system for upper math, esp if they dont have a lot of confidence in math

3. a lot of people used singapore in the lower grades because it has been one of the most rigorous, and popular with kids who are quick to learn math and need a challenge. a lot of people with kids like that switch to Art of Problem Solving for the upper grades - its a very different approach but great for mathy kids.

 

I tried a few things, but singapore was the best fit for us - my son had a lot of math anxiety and really needed me sitting right there, teaching him. Working independently was not the right choice for him. I am very confident in math and have had no trouble without the teachers manuals. its also very straight-forward, which he likes.

 

my younger one likes things that are non-linear and challenging, so it probably will not be reused for him.

[wapiti]

I think one of the main reasons people switch away from Singapore after SM 6 is that the upper levels are integrated.

[dbmamaz]

oh, yes, how did i forget that reason? Its not a prealgebra book, an algebra 1 book, an algebra 2 book, a geometry book and a trig book - its 4 books with those topics all mixed up. that was another advantage for my son - he was really hating algebra, so it was nice to only have to do algebra for 2 mo, then something else, then back to algebra

[Mom22ns]

Having pulled my first out to homeschool for very similar reasons, at a very similar time, I'll take a stab at this.

 

First of all, don't listen to everyone else's advice on curriculum (not even mine :)). Instead, start with placement tests. Ds tested advanced on everything in MAP testing, but we found math curriculums varied from starting him 2 years behind grade level (Singapore) to 2 years ahead of grade level (Teaching Textbooks). A big part of this was just difference in scope and sequence. Even MUS where we ended up, he had to go back and work through 2 levels (which he did in one year) to be ready to move forward. I highly recommend picking something that matches reasonably well to the scope and sequence she has already been dealing with, just to minimize gaps. You don't have to choose for long term. As you said, you are near the end of elementary math. There is a good chance you will change programs in just a couple of years.

 

Once you have found some choices that match up to her current level, look for what you can teach and what she can learn from. I knew from the spirals our ps did that it was a bad choice for my kids. You may know the opposite, but whatever you know, now is the time to turn on your own selection filters. You already know you want full solutions, but that won't narrow your choices much.

 

Finally, of the choices you are considering, I would not go with Fred. It really isn't complete at that level. We used Fractions and decimals as supplements and continue to use LOF as a supplement to MUS. MUS fits your requirements, but would probably be difficult to transfer into.

 

CLE, BJU are programs I have looked at that seem to follow ps sequencing well. CLE is spiral, BJU is mastery based. MM is very popular here as you've already seen, but I've never looked at it.

 

Best of luck as you start your homeschool journey. We pulled out thinking it would be just for middle school and ended up going all the way. Ds will be a Junior in high school next year and has been accepted to start classes at the local State U as well. Enjoy the journey.

 

You might also want to post on the special needs board. There are many kids there with very bright ADHD kids and experience with what math curriculums work well for them.

[AimeeM]

I pulled my own daughter out towards the end of grade 4. We made the mistake (mistake for us; others have done it successfully) of starting with Singapore; even though my daughter is very good/advanced in maths, Singapore was so different that it only frustrated her - we scrapped it eventually.

 

I really enjoy Math Mammoth, but if you're looking for "clean appearance", I'm not sure I would recommend it, although I will say that it does a very nice job of being conceptual but much easier (in terms of "method") than Singapore for children coming from public school.

 

Horizons is a strong choice if your child needs/wants a clean, visually appealing, spiral math program.

 

My advice to you is to first determine just that - does she need a spiral (constant review) program or a mastery program (work on the same concept for a longer period of time, until mastery, with less review). Then have her take placement tests within the type of math program you have determined she needs (spiral -vs- mastery). Then look through samples (Christian Book Distributors has a great selection) and have her help choose which she would prefer.

[TarynB]

One more thing I'll offer: Even after all your research, planning, sampling, placement tests, etc., you might still pick something that turns out to be a bad fit. It's OK. Just pick something else and move on. Curriculum-hopping for math isn't ideal, but doing it once (or even twice) isn't the end of the world. (I never thought the program we ended up with would work here, but after the first program was an epic fail, we went in a completely different direction and the second choice works great for us!) You may think you know whether you want spiral or mastery, or you may be very sure of what type of math you feel comfortable teaching, but the reality is, you won't really know until you start. So try to relax and not obsess - easier said than done - but still some of the best advice I've received regarding homeschooling. You won't break her if you choose a math program that needs to be switched later. :coolgleamA:

[SuzySparkle]

Thanks, everyone! I have been looking over the choices mentioned here.

 

I considered Singapore since it was so highly thought of by so many, but according to some of the things on the placement tests, I think dd (currently in 4th grade) might need to go back to 3A for me to be completely sure she's covered everything they deem important. Obviously, she would whiz through some of it, but that seems such a large step back mostly due to learning their method and when they teach it, and I don't want her to be discouraged right off the bat.

 

I like that Math Mammoth is similar and fairly inexpensive and includes lots of extra practice sheets if we need them. There is not a ton of white space, but at least the font is simple, and the pages aren't covered in pictures and miscellaneous stuff! That may be a great choice for us. I like the idea of conceptual learning in math.

 

Still looking into CLE also. I really liked the look of it.

 

I'm not sure if we're a mastery or spiral kind of group. I just know that once dd "gets" something, any further practice only frustrates her. She starts to zone out. That is one of the problems she has with ps. Some things she just picks up easily and forcing lots of drills leads to battles between she and I. So, more mastery, I guess?

 

I've pulled a couple of placement tests for her just as a starter and looked at others myself. There really is a lot of variation of where she would place! I'll be taking that into consideration also, since I want to get in the full elementary arithmetic training in time to not delay middle school maths like prealgebra and algebra I.

 

Take care, everyone!!!

[dereksurfs]

Still looking into CLE also. I really liked the look of it.

 

I'm not sure if we're a mastery or spiral kind of group. I just know that once dd "gets" something, any further practice only frustrates her. She starts to zone out. That is one of the problems she has with ps. Some things she just picks up easily and forcing lots of drills leads to battles between she and I. So, more mastery, I guess?

 

 

Just to let you know CLE, as a spiral program, is definately not like either of these: forcing lots of drills or too much practice. In fact one of the nicest parts of its spiral approach is that you can skip anything she's already got a handle on and move ahead. It is very easy to accelerate in that way. As a homeschooler no one is holding you to a script. You can and should alter the pace in a tailored fashion to meet her needs. Hopefully this thread gives you some good food for thought.

[mumto2]

You have gotten some great advice. I am just going to add a bit.

 

Another good curriculum with great solutions manuals is abeka. Not a favorite here at WTM but we just went back to it with ds for a variety of reasons. Easy to look at samples in person this time of the year with live meetings. Go to their web site and plug in your zip. We have one by us in a couple of days.

 

Dd loved the second stage of Singapore and I recommend it highly. Although she prefers NEM because she started with it-- I recommend Discovering Mathematics because it is so much easier to use. Clear what book next. I think that is part of ds needing to go back to abeka for now.

 

LOF is great. Probably a good suppliment for your dd.

[Nscribe]

You indicated you looked at Saxon but no one commented on it. A couple of things about it might work for what you described about yourself and your Dd.

 

1. You will be able to have a full solutions manual.

2. There are plenty of teacher supports (dvds and such)

3. The dwell time initially on any topic is small (5-7 problems) and then the topic is reinforced with a problem or two as part of the problem set for each lesson. For a kid who doesn't want to continue working on problems once they "master" the topic, mastery based texts can present a challenge. The kid will decide, "Oh I got this" after doing 5 or 10 problems and move on to the next topic. If they never do the review problems some mastery programs set out with each lesson, they can finish the book having temporarily mastered a lot but retained very little. Saxon is kinda sneaky in not letting that happen. They are not forced to do a slew of problems redundantly when they are introduced to the topic, but they do have to continuously revisit the topic in bits over time.

 

The down side: To work effectively you can't toy with Saxon. Each problem matters and expands on the original concepts. Thus, no skipping or you might as well not be doing the program.

 

Like the one poster said, once you narrow your choices down, let your child really look over the options and buy into the one she prefers. Dd actually surprised me when she chose Saxon, I simply would not have chosen it for her. She did and years later it continues to work very well. If you choose it, you also need to decide whether you will go the old or new route (geometry integrated, geometry not integrated).

[Bocky]

How's the math search going? A year ago I was in your position. My dd had used Envision in public school, and as a not especially mathy kid, had struggled at times. I was attracted to Singapore, as a more conceptual program, but recognized that I'd been taught procedurally myself, so would need teaching help. I agonized over putting her back to get in on the Singapore way earlier, but decided to try Singapore at grade level - 5A and 5B.

It is going really well for us. She likes math so much better, and is doing very well. Dd(3rd grade)'s Singapore 3A and 3B would have been much too simple. I am using the Home Instructor's Guide, and find it does a great job reviewing what has been taught before at the beginning of each new subject, and giving me the tools to teach the Singapore way. To prepare before we started 5A, I went over number bonds, place value, and the bar modelling.

HTH -

Bocky

[Guest kristiaseltine]

We have used CLE with our dd9 for the last three years. I also have thrown in some review using Ray's Intellectual Arithmetic. This has been very helpful in her learning how to solve the problems in her head with some oral work. With the "slate work", I copied pages of the text off google books so it was a printed worksheet for her. That meant she could practice the problems without me dictating all of them. We really do enjoy CLE, though.