Which writing program for this (sn) child?

[GoVanGogh]

We used WWE and started WWS, but I felt like I was simply pulling DS along in writing, not that he was getting it.

 

Last fall, he was finally dx with some special learning challenges. Not traditional dysgraphia, but he does exhibit a few of the same symptoms. Those symptoms he does have are to the max.

 

I decided after getting the dx to redo writing, but have DS do all the work on the compuer. We have since finished WWE, levels 1 and 2.

 

Part of the quirk of his learning challenge - he is very good with oral work and narrations come very easily to him. But he lacks the motor planning that goes into writing - or even typing. I can write his narration and he can type it perfectly. But he can't "think and do." He is absolutely paralyzed at the concept.

LA skills span the range - reading/comp/vocab at a college level, writing/spelling at rock bottom.

Neurologist says all this is to be expectedl with what is going on in his brain and that it is great that we homeschool so I can work around it. But how? I can't figure out how to span that gap.

 

My initial plan was to go back through all four levels of WWE on the computer (thus removing the physical act of writing) and restart WWS, but I don't know that he will gain anything by continuing with WWE at this stage. We are not far enough removed from our earlier struggles with WWS to restart it. I am looking for a new writing program, with plans on using Dragon (voice rec) software for all 'writing.'

 

DS loves techincal writing - manuals, reading charts and graphs, etc. He has every manual for every appliance and manner of conveyance that we own. That got me thinking: Are there any techincal writing programs for logic age children? What about non-fiction writing programs?

 

I downloaded the free sample of Hake, but the sample doesn't include the writing portion of the program. Any thoughts on it?

 

I already own Creative Writer. DS does hate creative writing but loves literature and talking about writing. The intro says it is good for children that want to know more about creative writing, even if they don't want to do creating writing. Anyone used it in this manner?

[lmrich]

Just to clarify, he can copy words. He can come up with his own paragraphs just not write them down. Can he do dictation?

 

I would look into a speech to text program. I would be curious to know if he can edit as well as there are many issues with the speech to text programs.

[TarynB]

I wish I could offer something helpful but I have no experience with this. Maybe you should cross-post on the Learning Challenges sub-forum as well? :grouphug:

[GoVanGogh]

Just to clarify, he can copy words. He can come up with his own paragraphs just not write them down. Can he do dictation?

 

I would look into a speech to text program. I would be curious to know if he can edit as well as there are many issues with the speech to text programs.

He has a physical condition which makes holding a pencil a challenge. More significant, he has a mild brain injury which has scattered his LA skills. He can read/understand college level engineering books, but ask him to write and you will get, "I like dogs. I have two." He didn't even speak that basic as a toddler, but he can't translate his thoughts into written words beyond that level. It is horribly frustrating to him.

He cannot copy, as in traditional copywork, as he struggles too much with the mechanics to be effective. He can copy written text to the computer, though.

He has been doing dictation on the computer without problems. We just started doing dictation on the whiteboard this week with so-so results.

We are using Dragon, which is a speech-to-text program. He can edit quite well.

He can do narrations, with me writing down his work. But he struggles with turning speaking or thinking/ideas into written words in any form - either with me writing or him speaking into Dragon.

He needs something more than narration work, but not creative writing. I was thinking maybe some techincal writing or scientific writing would be interesting enough to lure him in. We need remedial (or something I can use slowly) without it being too elementary.

[5LittleMonkeys]

Have you looked at IEW? I'm just wondering if something very formulaic might work for him. The reason I thought about it is that in the beginning the students are encouraged to re-tell the passage orally, using key-words as notes. There's no reason you couldn't extend that oral retelling further into the program. Also, I'm using modified IEW methods now with a co-op class and we do all of the work (outline, re-write, revision, and final copy) on a whiteboard. The kids never pick up a pencil in class and several have moms scribing for them at home. The skills and techniques are taught in a very systematic way and the program can be adapted to any pace, using any reading level, and any source material. There is a section on creative writing, but we always skip it...don't miss it at all.

 

I have no personal experience with your dc's condition so have no clue if this would be a good fit or not, however the program has a great reputation for clicking with some dc who really struggle. They also have a no questions asked, no time limit, 100% money back guarantee.

 

Good luck finding something that will help him. :)

[fluffybunny]

He sounds very much like my ds - great at reading and comprehension, but unable to express it in written words (even typing for a while). I taught mine to touch type when he was 8 and concentrated on that until he could type as I dicatated, without looking at the keys. I made sure he stuck to 10 finger typing at all times. He also has dysgraphia, and his last handwriting test showed he was 3 years behind (yet he can type 25wpm).

 

I definitely second IEW. Mine did WWE4 when he was grade 5, and WWS grade 6. WWS was a struggle, and we gave up at lesson 28. But we then started IEW-B (for grades 6-8) and he has been flying along! He now types his own stories that go on for pages and pages. The videos and hand-holding of IEW has helped SO much.

 

You didn't say how old he was. In any case, I would do this:

 

Step 1. Teach him to touch type, even if it takes 6 months. Don't worry about the art of writing; only concentrate on him being able to type without looking at the keys, then taking dictation. This takes a ton of patience.

 

Step 2. Get IEW-A or B, depending on how old he is, but it sounds like he would be better starting with A.

 

Personally, I wouldn't get the voice recognition gadget; it will only delay his "words on paper" motor skills that he will have to develop.

[GoVanGogh]

We already have the voice recognition software and love it. I actually think it is helping him get some thoughts on paper, just very slow going. As a result of the brain injury, DS has a neuromuscular disorder and cannot grasp a pencil/pen properly. (Which is why regular copywork is a fail.) He is typing fairly well.

 

I will have to look again at IEW. We tried it several years ago, but it was way too overwhelming for him. It might be a better fit now that we have a better idea what is going on in his head and I know that we will need to go slow.

[Pen]

A friend of mine with a neuromuscular disorder used Dragon very successfully--so successfully that his employers ended up getting it for everyone on their staff. I think to be able to write enough to leave someone a quick note or jot a shopping list is useful if possible, but beyond that if there is a physical problem, might as well let adaptive technology help.

 

You say he struggles with getting his thoughts into words with Dragon or with you writing. Can he speak in general if it is not supposed to be for writing or is he having trouble speaking at any time?

 

If he can speak when it is not about writing, try to record him when he is on a roll about some topic of interest and use that as the start toward a written piece. Or try "interviewing him" and getting him to explain the topic to you with Dragon or a recorder going.

 

If he can get anything out at least orally on a subject that he knows a lot about, then, using the voice recognition software, he can work toward improving and revising it, which may start to get him over the hump of feeling he cannot do it. How old is he?

[dsmith]

Does he need help with organizing his thoughts in order to get them on paper? With ds, we need to use graphic organizers when writing. Even though we don't use TOG anymore, we still use the graphic organizers from Writing Aids. A software option could be helpful too:

 

https://www.homeschoolbuyersco-op.org/inspiration/?source=HSBC-2013-02-28

[GoVanGogh]

A friend of mine with a neuromuscular disorder used Dragon very successfully--so successfully that his employers ended up getting it for everyone on their staff. I think to be able to write enough to leave someone a quick note or jot a shopping list is useful if possible, but beyond that if there is a physical problem, might as well let adaptive technology help.

 

You say he struggles with getting his thoughts into words with Dragon or with you writing. Can he speak in general if it is not supposed to be for writing or is he having trouble speaking at any time?

 

If he can speak when it is not about writing, try to record him when he is on a roll about some topic of interest and use that as the start toward a written piece. Or try "interviewing him" and getting him to explain the topic to you with Dragon or a recorder going.

 

If he can get anything out at least orally on a subject that he knows a lot about, then, using the voice recognition software, he can work toward improving and revising it, which may start to get him over the hump of feeling he cannot do it. How old is he?

 

DS has multiple things going on - the ones that affect writing: a mild brain injury that does not affect his IQ, but does affect the portion of the brain that controls 'forward muscle/movement planning,' plus a neuromuscular disorder that prevents him from moving his hands in the fluid motion that mechanical writing requires. It is the lack of muscle planning that is making writing so hard - it takes everything he has to write, that he can't 'think' and write. Typing eases that a fair amount, but not enough for his age. (Entering middle school.)

 

Examples from this week - all typical of his work.

1.)

Hand written in response to a writing prompt about pets

Took about ten minutes to write

"I like dogs. I have two."

2.) Typed on iPad when I asked him to write a few sentences about a program he attended

Took about 15 minutes to type

"Today I attended a wildlife program about raptors. The last bird the presenter showed was a red tailed hawk, which had been hit by a car."

3.) Before DS typed the two sentences about the wildlife program, he talked for a good 10 minutes about how much he enjoyed the progam and how interesting the presenter was. He compared sizes of the three birds and their carrying cages. ("The smallest bird was in the second largest carrying cage, as he had a longer tail and needed the extra space for his tail.")

 

We just got Dragon and the iPad. I am still trying to figure out how best to use technology to assist DS. He did such a great narration on the wildlife program, I should have had him use Dragon for it. But I was/am sick and had stayed home in bed and didn't feel like having him do more. It was a good comparison, though, of his written/typed vs. verbal skills.

 

In answer to the bolded above: He has no problems at all speaking, doing narrations or describing a play or book. His vocabulary and manner of speaking is advanced. This is actually what made it so hard to get him diagnosed - I would take him in to the pediatrician and tell him DS has known how to write his name for seven years, but still writes it every time like it was the first time ever. Pediatrician would turn to DS and ask him what he was studying in school and DS would impress the doctor with his verbal skills, so doctor would tell me there was nothing wrong!

 

Re: The second bolded part

I fear I was too harsh with him regarding writing prior to finding out there really was something else going on with him. Now I just need to find something fun and exciting to get him over that hump of thinking he can't do this.

 

Does he need help with organizing his thoughts in order to get them on paper? With ds, we need to use graphic organizers when writing. Even though we don't use TOG anymore, we still use the graphic organizers from Writing Aids. A software option could be helpful too:

 

https://www.homescho...HSBC-2013-02-28

When he is focused and interested in something, he tends to be fine. Otherwise, he is very scattered and his thoughts come out in a jumble. I just bought a book of graphic organizers last week and hope to start using them this week. I am looking at getting that software, but wanted to introduce the idea on paper first.

 

 

Re: IEW

Two PPs suggested IEW. I was looking at their website over the weekend and (re)discovered their rockets and robots writing program. I had looked at it when it first came out and seriously thought about it, but we tanked at IEW the first time around. That may be just what DS needs for inspiration.

[Pen]

DS has multiple things going on - the ones that affect writing: a mild brain injury that does not affect his IQ, but does affect the portion of the brain that controls 'forward muscle/movement planning,' plus a neuromuscular disorder that prevents him from moving his hands in the fluid motion that mechanical writing requires. It is the lack of muscle planning that is making writing so hard - it takes everything he has to write, that he can't 'think' and write. Typing eases that a fair amount, but not enough for his age. (Entering middle school.)

 

Examples from this week - all typical of his work.

1.)

Hand written in response to a writing prompt about pets

Took about ten minutes to write

"I like dogs. I have two."

2.) Typed on iPad when I asked him to write a few sentences about a program he attended

Took about 15 minutes to type

"Today I attended a wildlife program about raptors. The last bird the presenter showed was a red tailed hawk, which had been hit by a car."

3.) Before DS typed the two sentences about the wildlife program, he talked for a good 10 minutes about how much he enjoyed the progam and how interesting the presenter was. He compared sizes of the three birds and their carrying cages. ("The smallest bird was in the second largest carrying cage, as he had a longer tail and needed the extra space for his tail.")

 

We just got Dragon and the iPad. I am still trying to figure out how best to use technology to assist DS. He did such a great narration on the wildlife program, I should have had him use Dragon for it. But I was/am sick and had stayed home in bed and didn't feel like having him do more. It was a good comparison, though, of his written/typed vs. verbal skills.

 

In answer to the bolded above: He has no problems at all speaking, doing narrations or describing a play or book. His vocabulary and manner of speaking is advanced. This is actually what made it so hard to get him diagnosed - I would take him in to the pediatrician and tell him DS has known how to write his name for seven years, but still writes it every time like it was the first time ever. Pediatrician would turn to DS and ask him what he was studying in school and DS would impress the doctor with his verbal skills, so doctor would tell me there was nothing wrong!

 

Re: The second bolded part

I fear I was too harsh with him regarding writing prior to finding out there really was something else going on with him. Now I just need to find something fun and exciting to get him over that hump of thinking he can't do this.

 

 

When he is focused and interested in something, he tends to be fine. Otherwise, he is very scattered and his thoughts come out in a jumble. I just bought a book of graphic organizers last week and hope to start using them this week. I am looking at getting that software, but wanted to introduce the idea on paper first.

 

 

Re: IEW

Two PPs suggested IEW. I was looking at their website over the weekend and (re)discovered their rockets and robots writing program. I had looked at it when it first came out and seriously thought about it, but we tanked at IEW the first time around. That may be just what DS needs for inspiration.

 

[Pen]

Hmmm. That didn't work right, I'll try again.

 

DS has multiple things going on - the ones that affect writing: a mild brain injury that does not affect his IQ, but does affect the portion of the brain that controls 'forward muscle/movement planning,' plus a neuromuscular disorder that prevents him from moving his hands in the fluid motion that mechanical writing requires. It is the lack of muscle planning that is making writing so hard - it takes everything he has to write, that he can't 'think' and write. Typing eases that a fair amount, but not enough for his age. (Entering middle school.)

 

Examples from this week - all typical of his work.

1.)

Hand written in response to a writing prompt about pets

Took about ten minutes to write

"I like dogs. I have two."

2.) Typed on iPad when I asked him to write a few sentences about a program he attended

Took about 15 minutes to type

"Today I attended a wildlife program about raptors. The last bird the presenter showed was a red tailed hawk, which had been hit by a car."

3.) Before DS typed the two sentences about the wildlife program, he talked for a good 10 minutes about how much he enjoyed the progam and how interesting the presenter was. He compared sizes of the three birds and their carrying cages. ("The smallest bird was in the second largest carrying cage, as he had a longer tail and needed the extra space for his tail.")

 

We just got Dragon and the iPad. I am still trying to figure out how best to use technology to assist DS. He did such a great narration on the wildlife program, I should have had him use Dragon for it. But I was/am sick and had stayed home in bed and didn't feel like having him do more. It was a good comparison, though, of his written/typed vs. verbal skills.

 

In answer to the bolded above: He has no problems at all speaking, doing narrations or describing a play or book. His vocabulary and manner of speaking is advanced. This is actually what made it so hard to get him diagnosed - I would take him in to the pediatrician and tell him DS has known how to write his name for seven years, but still writes it every time like it was the first time ever. Pediatrician would turn to DS and ask him what he was studying in school and DS would impress the doctor with his verbal skills, so doctor would tell me there was nothing wrong!

 

Re: The second bolded part

I fear I was too harsh with him regarding writing prior to finding out there really was something else going on with him. Now I just need to find something fun and exciting to get him over that hump of thinking he can't do this.

 

 

When he is focused and interested in something, he tends to be fine. Otherwise, he is very scattered and his thoughts come out in a jumble. I just bought a book of graphic organizers last week and hope to start using them this week. I am looking at getting that software, but wanted to introduce the idea on paper first.

 

 

Re: IEW

Two PPs suggested IEW. I was looking at their website over the weekend and (re)discovered their rockets and robots writing program. I had looked at it when it first came out and seriously thought about it, but we tanked at IEW the first time around. That may be just what DS needs for inspiration.

 

We have a little digital voice recorder (ours is Olympus VN-5000), that helps with being able to record thoughts on the fly, and then later to get them typed. I think some Dragons may come with a portable voice recorder that can then be used to make the Dragon program work. Such little devices can be helpful to record speaking as it might come out while talking to you, or telling someone something on the phone perhaps. At the moment we just have one which I got for memos to myself. I have been thinking of getting another so that one would be available to ds all the time and another be available to me for my memos or to record him if something comes up that I notice would make a good start toward a written piece.

 

I think you might want to consider a Bravewriter online class also--I have posted some about my experiences on the Learning Challenges board.