Tiramisu Posted January 22, 2013 Share Posted January 22, 2013 What can we do as parents, then? Avoid leaving our kids in Sunday school? We leave them in child care at the gym, but I figure people come in and out of the room more often. I don't feel comfortable letting them go to Sunday school. I don't think s*xual abuse happens very often in group settings, like a Sunday school classroom where multiple teachers and students are kept together. The situations that I've personally known of happened in off hours and not during formally scheduled Church activities. Sometimes you never know when or where things can happen, but looking back with today's awareness, I can see where there should have been alarm bells going off or at least red flags. I'm not saying this to blame any anyone and am only speaking of two particular cases of which I have direct knowledge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodhaven Posted January 23, 2013 Share Posted January 23, 2013 Shudder! What vile behavior!! What horror!! Ugh! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrincessMommy Posted January 23, 2013 Share Posted January 23, 2013 You wouldn't be the first to call them a cult. I know a few people that (at least a few years ago) went to one. One family had left the cultish family-intregrated church we went to go to the local SGM. Everything I've read indicates their doctrine is very similar and legalistic. The other man ("Jack") we knew who went there was a big devotee of guess who? That's right, Bill Gothard! He could barely stand to work in the same room as one legalistic Christians from our previous church because he listened to some Christian rock groups while they worked together. This really, really bothered "Jack". Yes, SGM has been considered cultish by the locals almost since the original church started back in the mid-70s. Not quite a full-blown cult but still they've always been looked upon to have strong leanings in that direction. I'm still sorry to hear it went beyond over-controlling and micro-managing of people's lives to s*xual abuse of children. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radiobrain Posted January 23, 2013 Share Posted January 23, 2013 Pedophiles go into jobs, careers and situations where they can succeed. Whatever that is. It isn't that a priest, teacher, volunteer, boy/girl scout leader, day care worker, clown, coach, etc "becomes" a pedophile, it is that a pedophile chooses the profession they think they will be the most successful in. And ANY institution will try to sweep something under the rug or keep it quiet so it doesn't get out that they would hire the person in the first place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radiobrain Posted January 23, 2013 Share Posted January 23, 2013 This is something that happened that I have knowledge of. Middle school science teacher at really expensive private school, also a boy scout leader. Molests 2 brothers. Neither know about it. Neither do the parents. He moves into an apartment over the brothers, builds the father a harpsicord, etc. When it finally comes out the father goes to the school (where he also worked) and reports it. When he got home the guy had already been fired quietly, and he was able to go to the apartment and get his crap and disappeared. They weren't even able to press charges if they wanted to, and no one ever said anything and the school wouldn't provide any personal info on the guy. It was as if he never existed. This was in the mid 1970's. Now, who knows how it would have been handled. Was he a teacher, a boy scout leader...no he was a predator. PERIOD. And due to the school's actions I am positive that he moved on to another school and another troop in another state. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiramisu Posted January 23, 2013 Share Posted January 23, 2013 And ANY institution will try to sweep something under the rug or keep it quiet so it doesn't get out that they would hire the person in the first place. Along the same lines, even in cases when the kids told their parents, the parents didn't always act on it and told the kids not to tell because they didn't want people to know. They were ashamed. Cover ups happened at the institutional level but also in the family. :( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiramisu Posted January 23, 2013 Share Posted January 23, 2013 This is something that happened that I have knowledge of. Middle school science teacher at really expensive private school, also a boy scout leader. Molests 2 brothers. Neither know about it. Neither do the parents. He moves into an apartment over the brothers, builds the father a harpsicord, etc. When it finally comes out the father goes to the school (where he also worked) and reports it. When he got home the guy had already been fired quietly, and he was able to go to the apartment and get his crap and disappeared. They weren't even able to press charges if they wanted to, and no one ever said anything and the school wouldn't provide any personal info on the guy. It was as if he never existed. This was in the mid 1970's. Now, who knows how it would have been handled. Was he a teacher, a boy scout leader...no he was a predator. PERIOD. And due to the school's actions I am positive that he moved on to another school and another troop in another state. I think ideas about abuse started changing in the 1980's but it took at least a decade to those new ideas to filter into institutional practices. I can see that shame played a bigger role for victims and their families prior to the 1980's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seasider Posted January 23, 2013 Share Posted January 23, 2013 There are s*vereign gr@ce churches near me- anyone have a link to the specific "denomination" so I can find out if it;s the local groups or just a similar name? Ick. It is technically not a denomination - they have been careful to avoid that term. It is officially an association of churches under the banner of Sovereign Grace Ministries (SGM). Each church is technically independent, however, the stated purpose of the association is church planting, so you will see similar doctrinal statements among member churches, similar church polity and leaders/pastors attending leadership training conferences with the same guys. This type of association is not new to evangelical Christianity in America, but seems to be becoming more popular (Willow Creek Association, Acts 29 Network, 9 Marks, and Mark Driscoll appears to set to launch his own brand pretty soon). Never heard of this SGM before. Sounds like a cult, just from your post. I'm going to look it up. A look at the court documents might just make you want to change your avatar. I find it hard to keep track of all the players involved in the SGM lawsuit. One of the things I've read about was that CJ Mahaney blackmailed someone in the past. People think (or maybe it's been proven now) that he blackmailed Larry Tomczak, which was probably easy to do, since Tomczak is allegedly a pedophile. As I understand it, Tomczak's teen son is/was named a perpetrator in the indictment. The allegation against CJ Mahaney is that he used that information (the son's crime, before it was public) in some way as leverage against Larry Tomczak. But that's not the full extent of LT's involvement, I'm sure there's more. we live a few miles from the original SGM church. We've had friends/family deeply hurt by them over the years. We never had a desire to attend - even in our Protestant days. I'm sorry to see something this awful has been happening behind the scenes and being covered up. That article first article is bizarre. It kind of rambles and takes a while to get to their point.. If by "first article" you mean the one Hoppy linked to TWW, I understand what you mean. They have been following this "ministry" for a long time and if you go back to earlier blog posts, you will get a better picture of the situation. www.wartburgwatch.com Maybe some did. Maybe others had most of their friends at their church and were afraid of being shunned. After all, some churches are requiring people to members to sign covenants stating they won't leave the church without, basically, the pastor's permission. I don't know if any SGM churches are doing this, but they are the type that would. I think that many of the members have been sitting under the teachings of this group long enough to be indoctrinated to the idea that if they disobey the pastors/elders, they are disobeying God (not that they see the men as God, but as His right representatives). Also, yes, due to the nature of the membership "covenant" and the resultant church discipline for noncompliance, many of them stand to lose not only their Sunday morning place of worship, but their entire religious and social networks, and often their vocational ones as well (ie, their paychecks) if they choose to disassociate or disobey. Try to leave, and they will pursue you. Google "Julie Anne Smith survivor". She has recently closed her blog at BGBCsurvivorsDOTcom, but you can see stories there of churches that have pursued former members (that they consider to still be under the church's authority). It is Really. Messed. Up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThisIsTheDay Posted January 23, 2013 Share Posted January 23, 2013 You wouldn't be the first to call them a cult. I know a few people that (at least a few years ago) went to one. One family had left the cultish family-intregrated church we went to go to the local SGM. Everything I've read indicates their doctrine is very similar and legalistic. Please, oh, please don't paint all SGM churches with the same brush. We were a part of one for awhile, and this particular church was filled with good leadership and Godly members. Sexual abuse is quite common in any legalistic religious environment. I would never consider SGM churches to be "legalistic." In my experience with our local one, that's just completely untrue. Yes, SGM has been considered cultish by the locals almost since the original church started back in the mid-70s. Not quite a full-blown cult but still they've always been looked upon to have strong leanings in that direction. Maybe by your locals, but in NO WAY does this apply to how our local SGM church is viewed by anyone I know inside or outside of this church. Many of the members homeschool, so it's a church that is more familiar in our hs community, regardless of where our other hsing families attend church. I am in no way defending what happened or minimizing the awfulness of it. It's sickening, horrifying, and anyone involved in any way should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. But I know that my SGM friends are as heartbroken as anyone over this and are grieving for the victims. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seasider Posted January 23, 2013 Share Posted January 23, 2013 Please, oh, please don't paint all SGM churches with the same brush. We were a part of one for awhile, and this particular church was filled with good leadership and Godly members. I would never consider SGM churches to be "legalistic." In my experience with our local one, that's just completely untrue. Maybe by your locals, but in NO WAY does this apply to how our local SGM church is viewed by anyone I know inside or outside of this church. Many of the members homeschool, so it's a church that is more familiar in our hs community, regardless of where our other hsing families attend church. I am in no way defending what happened or minimizing the awfulness of it. It's sickening, horrifying, and anyone involved in any way should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. But I know that my SGM friends are as heartbroken as anyone over this and are grieving for the victims. Of course you are right, there are many sincere, wonderful people involved in SGM churches that are free of abuse. But there's likely going to be suspicion by association, kwim? I am interested as to whether this comes as a total shock to some SGM members/member churches, and how the leaders and members in each local church are poising themselves to weather the scrutiny to come. And, deep down, there's a part of me afraid that yes, this is just the first trickle to come forth from a huge rotten dam. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
[email protected] Posted January 23, 2013 Share Posted January 23, 2013 We would like to keep this thread open. What would be nice? Talk about the issue instead of each other. Moderator Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted January 23, 2013 Share Posted January 23, 2013 Agreed. I am not Catholic, and certainly not a fan of the leadership for how they handled the molestation cases, but one of my favorite people in this world is a Catholic priest who is a wonderful man with an infectious spirit. I do hate that he is tarred with the same brush as those who sullied his faith. Only by comments like these is he "tarred with the same brush." I don't think most people blame Catholicism or Catholics at large. Abuse is still very much taboo and still often places at least some of the blame on the victim. We will be much better off as a society when we move past those types of issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovemy9kids Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 Just a side note - there are many churches that are reformed/Calvinistic and use the terms "sovereign grace". That group might use those words, but it doesn't mean other churches with that name have anything to do with the SGM group. VERY good point.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovemy9kids Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 I couldn't even finish reading that.....My heart is sick and angry. Whatis the church's response? Are they denying it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrincessMommy Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 deleted as unnecessary and not completely pertinent to the OP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.