Anyone else not scared of GMOs

[nmoira]

Here's the part that pisses me most off about GMOs. The poor are going to be the ones holding the bag--again. Why? Because that's all they'll be able to access and afford. The trickle down of that is a flaming sin.

 

 

I would argue that "the poor" are pawns in a game played by big corporations against relatively comfortable and affluent activists, locavores, etc. Greenpeace destroying research facilities while while wearing hazmat suits to guard against GMO exposure, is not only unhelpful to the poor and starving they are seeking to protect (from ?), but is fear mongering in the worst sense.

[justamouse]

I would argue that "the poor" are pawns in a game played by big corporations against relatively comfortable and affluent activists, locavores, etc. Greenpeace destroying research facilities while while wearing hazmat suits to guard against GMO exposure, is not only unhelpful to the poor and starving they are seeking to protect (from ?), but is fear mongering in the worst sense.

 

Well, from there we get into politics, because the CEOs of Monsanto have always had a revolving door with the FDA, whose lobby in Washington is epic.

 

So, if the locavores and affluent activists (who aren't speaking out in support of good food for the poor?) are the ones making them pawns, Washington is the puppet master.

[Parrothead]

 

 

Agri business has put a lot of money into fighting labeling.

 

It does make me wonder why. They spend more money fighting labeling than it would cost to label. So that can't be used as a defense as to why they don't want to.

[misty.warden]

It is nowhere near the top of my list of things to fear/worry about. I buy what I can afford and don't give it another thought. I also think that most foods labeled organic at the grocery store are not really all that organic--I have nothing to back that up it's just what I think... That's about as conspiracy theorist as I get though.

 

http://www.greenerchoices.org/eco-labels/label.cfm?LabelID=151 This one is pretty good for the "WTF does this label even mean?" My nutrition class did a whole unit on food labelling and how 100% organic and Made with 100% organic ingredients is not the same.

 

I am not scared of eating GMO's in the least. My concern is for their effects on our seed sources and how they hurt small farmers. The less diverse the seed stock, the more likely pests and disease can wipe out our food source. Small farmers also suffer from lawsuits when GMO crops pop up as weeds in their non-modified crops, which drives them out of business. Some GMO sources are also sterile, which hurts those in third world countries that are given these types of seeds after a disaster to replenish their seed stock. This means they can't save seeds so they won't be able to grow food the next year. So nope, not scare of eating GMO's, but still avoid them because I can't in good [conscience] support the companies that make them or the eventual results of an undiversified seed stock.

 

This, especially the bolded. Suing someone for stealing your seeds, fine. Suing someone because of uncontrollable wind currents causing your seeds to grow as weeds in their land? That's just crazy to me.

 

I'm not scared of GMOs insofar as I think there is some sort of definite health threat. I do avoid GMOs, though, because of the unethical business practices that seem to largely be their purpose. (E.g. Herbicide activated seed that keeps growers dependent on Monsanto.) And I do wonder what the long term repercussions to all creatures in the food chain is. I don't think there's an answer to that yet. I take exception to the cavalier way our government allows corporations to basically experiment on our food supply in the name of commerce.

 

The business ethics get to me, as well as the rhetoric that somehow all the pesticide dependency and small farm suing is somehow bringing food to the starving masses. I'm pretty disillusioned about the organic labels so I don't avoid GMO as much as I should to line up with my disgust with Monsanto, but I do try to buy locally when I get the chance. Farmer's markets here are pretty awesome. Do they use GMO? I have no idea.

[nmoira]

 

 

Well, from there we get into politics, because the CEOs of Monsanto have always had a revolving door with the FDA, whose lobby in Washington is epic.

 

So, if the locavores and affluent activists (who aren't speaking out in support of good food for the poor?) are the ones making them pawns, Washington is the puppet master.

 

 

I don't know about puppet master, more dog than tail there. Not getting into anatomy beyond that. :p As for the rest, you can't talk about did supply without talking about yield,and I've seen no data to support the idea that any combination of local, organic, indigenous or traditional, non-GMO crops are going to feed the world. I don't like it, but there it is.

 

Disclaimer: We do eat primarily local, much of it organic; it's easy to do so here, and such good quality. But it's not cheap.

 

 

[Carpe]

I've seen no data to support the idea that any combination of local, organic, indigenous or traditional, non-GMO crops are going to feed the world. I don't like it, but there it is.

 

Disclaimer: We do eat primarily local, much of it organic; it's easy to do so here, and such good quality. But it's not cheap.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzTHjlueqFI

That video (and parts 2-4) makes me very confident that it's possible to do local, organic, non-GMO and increase yields in most parts of the world.

 

I also read some guy's record of extreme composting as he called it. He bought land that was all clay and wouldn't grow anything. He built giant compost piles using materials that were going to be burned and recovered acres of growing land. (paraphrased because I don't have it bookmarked) Then there's the gardenpool family. http://gardenpool.org/ who grow all their own food in their backyard. They have a great aquaponics system set up. All those things make me think that there are solutions, but no one is actively searching them out because they don't make the kind of money have a monopoly on seeds does.

 

As for the original topic. I don't think GMOs are poison, but I avoid them as if they were because I do not want to support the corporations behind the GMOs.

[Slartibartfast]

I don't know about puppet master, more dog than tail there. Not getting into anatomy beyond that. :p As for the rest, you can't talk about did supply without talking about yield,and I've seen no data to support the idea that any combination of local, organic, indigenous or traditional, non-GMO crops are going to feed the world. I don't like it, but there it is.

 

Disclaimer: We do eat primarily local, much of it organic; it's easy to do so here, and such good quality. But it's not cheap.

 

 

But we also do not utilize the land as well as we ought. We are shockingly poor stewards of the great and vast amount of usable farmland that we have here in the US. Of course, much of it is not usable farmland but much is wasted.

 

Also many farmers are paid not to farm to keep the grain prices stable.

 

http://www.npr.org/2012/06/13/154862017/why-the-farm-bills-provisions-will-matter-to-you

 

While GMOs do increase the yield what is the price for that? Monsanto abandoned GMO wheat in the US because so many countries would then refuse our wheat.

 

There are many alternatives to using GMOs. I don't believe we are in quite the rut they would like us to believe.

[nmoira]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzTHjlueqFI

That video (and parts 2-4) makes me very confident that it's possible to do local, organic, non-GMO and increase yields in most parts of the world.

 

I've seen some of his talks, and while his work is intriguing, PRI is not big on publishing comprehensive data on its projects.

 

The big problem with applying the permaculture model as a solution to world food needs is that it's simply not feasible in an urban environment because it's inherently local in nature.

 

I also read some guy's record of extreme composting as he called it. He bought land that was all clay and wouldn't grow anything. He built giant compost piles using materials that were going to be burned and recovered acres of growing land. (paraphrased because I don't have it bookmarked) Then there's the gardenpool family. http://gardenpool.org/ who grow all their own food in their backyard. They have a great aquaponics system set up. All those things make me think that there are solutions, but no one is actively searching them out because they don't make the kind of money have a monopoly on seeds does.

 

There's no question there are some interesting and exciting programs out there. Heck, a neighbor of mine is experimenting with a system of floating gardens in a sheltered part of the Willamette River, and Portland is seemingly full of urban homesteaders (though it might be just my neighborhood). I'm very intrigued by the fungus-can-cure everything people, and if I had $20 to bet, I'd bet something on them. :)

[Carpe]

I've seen some of his talks, and while his work is intriguing, PRI is not big on publishing comprehensive data on its projects.

 

The big problem with applying the permaculture model as a solution to world food needs is that it's simply not feasible in an urban environment because it's inherently local in nature.

 

It's true that there is not much data from permaculture projects. Someone should really do something about that.

 

The solutions for large urban areas will be different than the solutions for rural Jordan. I'm sure there are solutions though even for the densest of population areas.

 

Balcony gardens are really common here (mostly because cheap houses in the burbs means only hippies live in apartment condos). It would be really difficult to make a permaculture balcony garden, but I suspect if one tried hard enough, and the balcony was well enough supported, it could be done. More likely community gardens are the solution for urban areas. There is no reason for parks to have poplar trees (they are so common here that new developments are not allowed to plant them) those trees can and should be fruit bearing. Why does every public building have a tiny garden out front that grows nothing useful?

 

Kamloops, BC (Canada) apparently has a small free for all vegetable garden. http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/can-a-locavore-dream-of-public-produce-come-true/article4396658/?page=all

Todmorden, West Yorkshire (UK) has public gardens everywhere with a goal of growing all the vegetables the town needs. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2072383/Eccentric-town-Todmorden-growing-ALL-veg.html

 

Granted these are smaller urban areas, but the same small changes in public areas of large cities would make a huge difference in food availability in cities. I don't think the locality of permaculture is the issue. I think the issue would be scale. A suburban garden could feed the family that lives in that house, but a roof garden on an apartment building could not feed everyone under it. Taking over public spaces for the growth of food would be a good start, but would probably still be insufficient. A communal garden wouldn't be enough; ironically a communal effort on everyone's own smaller gardens in whatever spaces they had would create more food. There would be no food deserts if everyone had a window garden.

 

I've started rambling and I'm sure the thread has updated since I started typing. Basically I agree with you but I am more optimistic that there are solutions other than genetic manipulation.

[justamouse]

I'm very intrigued by the fungus-can-cure everything people, and if I had $20 to bet, I'd bet something on them. :)

 

Me too, and the awesome thing about terra preta, is that it's microbes that grow in the holes of the char.

 

And, actually that paper goes into sequestration of the carbon and says that it can reduce carbon emission by 10%.

[MistyMountain]

 

I HOPE they're not cancer causing (I've seen the pictures where a lab worker is holding up a rat riddled with tumors and it blames GMO)...if anyone has any links showing that GMOs aren't the end of the world health-wise I'd love to see them since it seems all I come across are the fear-mongering hype.

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http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/antivaccine-versus-anti-gmo-different-goals-same-methods/

[Χά�ων]

I read a nice blurb online that pointed out carrots weren't always orange. You know, insinuating that even the organic food isn't natural like nature intended.

 

 

I grow carrots and they are still not all orange. Just because the stores only sell one variety does not mean that that is the ONLY variety. Drives me crazy that I cannot get my colorful carrots at the store if I have a bad year for my garden.

 

I grow the following colors of carrots:

White

Yellow

Orange

Red

Purple

 

I am trying to find black this year.

 

And the same things goes for most fruits and vegetables, the one or two varieties we can buy in the store does not even begin to scratch the surface of what there is but if you want the variety you have to hit up a farmers market that has a vendor that is willing to take the chance and grow something that people are not familiar with and may not buy or you have to buy the seeds and grow them yourself. IMO this lack of knowledge of the varieites of produce is really disturbing.

 

We need food but people hear zucchini and think only of the black beauty and often have no clue of the many other varieties of zucchini and related summer squash. Not everyone likes that one variety but rarely do people know about the many other varieties and I have yet to met someone who outright declares a hatred of a type fruit or vegetable who has actually tried all varieties to see if that we true. DS is a prime example. He does not like the standard orange sweet potato (commonly accused of being a yam) but he loves the yellow and white ones. I haven't found the purple variety (still not a yam) yet, but I would love to in the next couple of years.

 

I have to excuse myself while I go make grapenuts.

[Laura Corin]

I don't find the idea of GMOs frightening, but like you I object to Monsanto's business practices and the uses to which GMO is put. One example is the development of Round Up Ready crops that are resistant to the herbicide Round Up, so that it can be sprayed directly on the crop throughout growing to kill weeds. That's not the kind of produce I'd prefer to eat. This is the Monsanto page on them, so you can see that I am not exaggerating the agricultural practices that are intended here.

 

Laura

[nmoira]

There's a good documentary called Genetic Roullete, concerning the BT put into plant genes. BT kills caterpillars by blowing up their insides, basically. However, there's now proof that these genes with BT are now in genes inside the intestinal flora of humans. Can't get rid of them, either. Some researchers believe these flora with Bt are causing tiny perforations in our guts, leaking out undigested amounts into the blood stream, and resulting in different allergies and other ailments.

 

Not quite:

 

http://academicsreview.org/reviewed-content/genetic-roulette/section-5/5-7-bt-genes-and-gut-survival/

 

 

1. Bacteria that carry the Bt gene already exist. The abbreviation Bt refers to Bacillus thuringiensis which is a microbe closely related to other bacteria which briefly proliferate in the gut but do not permanently colonize the gut. Scenarios that Genetic Roulette envisages for movement of Bt genes from plants to gut bacteria are much less likely than movement of natural Bt genes into the gut bacterial flora. Despite the widespread use of these natural Bt containing bacteria for pesticide control by the organic farming community, and the likely presence of these bacteria in some food items, no establishment of Bt producing bacteria in the gut has ever been reported (Frederiksen and other 2006, Wilcks and others 1998)

[Jennifer3141]

Well, it would be hard, there would be obstacles, but I'm always of the opinion that if we landed on the moon, someone smarter than me out there should figure this stuff out. :laugh:

 

 

As far as the GMO debate, I think they are awful. I'm happy that most EU countries don't allow them. Y'all can eat em if you want I just want them labeled so I can keep my family away. As it is, I only buy products that are labeled non gmo, and seeds labeled non gmo. And I refuse to buy stock in Monsanto.

 

 

I buy 90% of my groceries from a store that bans GMOs and that makes it much, much easier.

 

I'm not convinced that splicing a salmon gene into my grapefruit is a great idea.

 

And making seed resistant to everything but one particular pesticide is IDIOTIC if you believe in evolution.

 

But what frosts my chaps most about GMOs is Monsantos refusal to label and their business practices to small farms. If you crapola is really that much better, label it and be proud, But they refuse to do that and they pour MILLIONS of dollars into marketing compaigns against basic labeling.

 

After watching our economy circle the toilet due to giant banks running rampant, I don't see how any rational person can make any kind of compelling argument that giving our food system over to agribusiness is a good idea. I buy from a FARMER. I have zero interest in buying GMO peas from Dick Cheney.

 

You want to solve the food crisis in Africa? Stop subsidizing wars and focus on growing stuff there that is supposed to grow there. This arrogance that we humans know better than our planet astounds me.