Rigorous does not always equal better

[Down_the_Rabbit_Hole]

Sometimes rigorous creates a hatred in a subject a child once loved. Sometimes rigorous has the child just learning for the test and not really digesting and retaining the material. A rigorous HS curriculum doesnt mean the child will do better in college. Sometimes rigorous just means harder, not better.

 

I am just saying.

Edited September 14, 2012 by Down_the_Rabbit_Hole

[kiana]

Additionally:

 

A less rigorous curriculum, well understood, is superior to the most rigorous curriculum, poorly understood.

 

Now, of course, the ideal would be a rigorous curriculum, well understood. But not every student has the ability and the desire to accomplish this.

[laundrycrisis]

I don't want to make things harder just for the sake of making them harder, like the classes in college that were intended to flunk 50% of the students. I didn't learn more or learn the material any better from that level of difficulty. In fact, I developed some bad habits in order to get through that gauntlet that I had to re-examine and work to change later on.

 

I want our kids to develop stamina, but I don't want to burn them out. I also don't want them to develop habits to cope with the workload I give them that shut down some aspects of learning the material.

 

I want them to learn the skills and the content, but I also want them to learn how to be effective in their approaches to work and problem solving. Effectiveness is a great skill for an adult to have, and brute force is not the best answer to everything. The "rigor" I was taught in college was completely about brute force.

 

There is value in elegant solutions ! I want them to learn to think through the process of getting from point A to point B and use their whole mind. Our dysgraphic 9 yo is very creative in thinking up ways to avoid writing while still doing grammar or math practice, demonstrating knowledge, etc. He finds elegant solutions. He thinks of ways to do his work more effectively, so he can save his energy and end up doing more or learning more, and have more free time at the end of the day.

[G5052]

More thoughts that way...

 

• If you have not been effectively using demanding curriculum prior to high school, do NOT suddenly pull out all the stops trying to "catch up" for high school. It will be more disruptive than keeping the approach level and/or sloping up at a reasonable pace.
   
  
• Same applied to dual enrollment. If you have not been orienting your schooling towards pre-college preparation, do NOT expect dual enrollment to bring up your student up to a college level. It is college-level education using adult-level books, not something for students who need more time in high school.
  

I teach homeschooled high school students in a local class and at the local community college, and unfortunately I have major headaches going on with both places because of these issues. Sigh.

[SailorMom]

More thoughts that way...

 

• If you have not been effectively using demanding curriculum prior to high school, do NOT suddenly pull out all the stops trying to "catch up" for high school. It will be more disruptive than keeping the approach level and/or sloping up at a reasonable pace.
   
  
• Same applied to dual enrollment. If you have not been orienting your schooling towards pre-college preparation, do NOT expect dual enrollment to bring up your student up to a college level. It is college-level education using adult-level books, not something for students who need more time in high school.
  

I teach homeschooled high school students in a local class and at the local community college, and unfortunately I have major headaches going on with both places because of these issues. Sigh.

 

Off topic, but - I would love to hear, maybe in a separate thread, from you what you see as being the major issues, and what we can be doing to better prepare them. I'm just starting the high school thing and am terrified!

[laundrycrisis]

Off topic, but - I would love to hear, maybe in a separate thread, from you what you see as being the major issues, and what we can be doing to better prepare them. I'm just starting the high school thing and am terrified!

 

I would also like to read a thread about that, with your thoughts, and those of others who teach homeschooled teens and graduates.

[EKS]

Sometimes rigorous creates a hatred in a subject a child once loved. Sometimes rigorous has the child just learning for the test and not really digesting and retailing the material. A rigorous HS curriculum does mean the child will do better in college. Sometimes rigorous just means harder, not better.

 

I am just saying.

 

I'd say that it isn't rigorous if it is merely harder and simply teaching to the test.

Edited September 13, 2012 by EKS

[BibleBeltCatholicMom]

I'd say that it isn't rigorous if it is merely harder and simply teaching to the test.

 

:iagree:

[regentrude]

I'd say that it isn't rigorous if it is merely harder and simply teaching to the test.

 

Yes. This would not meet my definition of rigor either.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

I'd say that it isn't rigorous if it is merely harder and simply teaching to the test.

 

Yes. This would not meet my definition of rigor either.

 

:iagree:

 

I always thought of "rigorous" as a course of study that challenges and develops the skills and abilities of a particular student or class. A book isn't rigorous. A study of the book might be.

 

What is rigorous for one of my children would be child's play to the other. What is rigorous for him would be so impossible for his brother that I'd never make him do it.

[WishboneDawn]

Yes. This would not meet my definition of rigor either.

 

:iagree:

 

On this board at least I've always gotten the sense that rigor meant more then hard. It meant intensive, detailed, rich, challenging...And it was meant for content and skills a student was expected to carry with them. Not pump and dump kind of stuff.

[Candid]

:iagree:

 

On this board at least I've always gotten the sense that rigor meant more then hard. It meant intensive, detailed, rich, challenging...And it was meant for content and skills a student was expected to carry with them. Not pump and dump kind of stuff.

 

:iagree:

 

That's certainly what I strive for.

[G5052]

Off topic, but - I would love to hear, maybe in a separate thread, from you what you see as being the major issues, and what we can be doing to better prepare them. I'm just starting the high school thing and am terrified!

 

Probably the biggest is that you need to be involved with your student, still expecting the level of work that they're capable of and doing some level of correcting/checking to see how they're keeping up. Some of my headaches involve families who pay the bill and expect the teen to do the rest. In most of these cases though, the problem has been going on for years. If they take my class and haven't been accountable to an adult for years, it is a huge shock that they may not recover from.

 

The other is to teach your student to take responsibility for their own learning. I've had plenty of parents dress me down for being a bad teacher until I show them the huge gaps in homework turned in, class attendance, etc. etc. The assumption is that their darling is failing because of me, not because their darling isn't engaged in the coursework.

 

IMHO successfully homeschooling high school is as much about involvement and attitude as it is about curriculum. There are a few teens who will do fine without your involvement, but most still need us ;).

[Nan in Mass]

My definition of rigorous involves whether it makes the student think, really think, and problem solve. I tend to think of rigorous curriculums as the ones that make the student start with a blank sheet of paper, and ones that teach the student how to do something (like write a lab report) that they are bad at in the begining of the year and then keep doing and improving throughout the year. I tend to think of rigorous as the sort of curriculum that assumes the student will memorize as needed as he or she goes along, and the sort that assumes the student will be able to figure out which bits need memorizing and reviewing. I tend to think of rigorous as something involving a high reading level and good math, science, and writing skills. I tend to think of rigorous as involving real, whole things rather than fake bits.

 

Nan

[momma2three]

I think that rigorous has to, at some level, be individualized. What is rigorous for one child is easy peasy for another.

 

When I think of rigorous, I also think there has to be a consistency of hard work, too. A "rigorous curriculum" is one that keeps moving at a speed one half-step ahead of the student, encouraging them to work to their fullest potential.

[laughing lioness]

:iagree:

 

On this board at least I've always gotten the sense that rigor meant more then hard. It meant intensive, detailed, rich, challenging...And it was meant for content and skills a student was expected to carry with them. Not pump and dump kind of stuff.

 

:iagree:This. I don't think rigor will cause someone to hate something. I remember my thesis development class taught by an Asian women who said that she she wanted to teach the class because she was so confused about HOW to write her very own dissertation or what to write it on (obviously, that's one of the big questions to solve when doing research but to get to that point and still be so undirected....). To me, she epitomized high success, performance based ed/learning. Dh, however, got to the point of writing his dissertation and was totally clear about how to proceed and what area to write on - his doctoral program was very process oriented with performance criterion clearly dilineated.

 

Also, I think of Latin. I'm struggling right now with Latin- both getting over a hump in my own head, and encouraging the kids to go forward with it. I see the benefits. I GET the benefits. But it's so dang hard. It's rigorous, and demanding for every one of us. So, as far as "ease" being a definition of rigor?- I see the point about things being easier for some people but rigorous stuff is rigorous stuff- Dante is difficult but ds 18 is eating it up- it's still work, but it's the kind of work that jazzes him, rather than depletes him (like pre-calc- he works at it and needs to re-group from it, whereas Dante he does it and wants to do more)---- am I making any sense?

Edited September 15, 2012 by laughing lioness

[Mommyfaithe]

My definition of rigorous involves whether it makes the student think, really think, and problem solve. I tend to think of rigorous curriculums as the ones that make the student start with a blank sheet of paper, and ones that teach the student how to do something (like write a lab report) that they are bad at in the begining of the year and then keep doing and improving throughout the year. I tend to think of rigorous as the sort of curriculum that assumes the student will memorize as needed as he or she goes along, and the sort that assumes the student will be able to figure out which bits need memorizing and reviewing. I tend to think of rigorous as something involving a high reading level and good math, science, and writing skills. I tend to think of rigorous as involving real, whole things rather than fake bits.

 

Nan

This....and rigorous rarely comes from a lesson plan, but from a concerted effort by both tutor and student to master material that was out of reach at the start. It takes effort and builds stamina. Rigor makes you breathe hard, then builds muscle. It is not a particular program or book....it is how the material is approached, and will look different with each student.

 

For example....I just started indoor cycling....and the resistance on my bike is not the same as the woman on the next cycle....yet, I am working and sweating to my max....and slowly gaining endurance, strength and stamina.....I push myself. I could very easily loosen up and just ride it out. Same cycle, same class.....way different results.