I need grammar help!

[FairProspects]

MCT is resulting in daily yelling and throwing of the book across the room. Dyslexic ds absolutely cannot apply parts of speech to a sentence without picture support or something else. He loves the little stories in Grammar Island, and I can see us reading and enjoying it as a fun supplement, but as far as applied grammar there is ZERO happening and frustration is ensuing as he gets it wrong every single time.

 

What can I do? Ds knows the definition of a pronoun backwards and forwards yet cannot identify "she" in a sentence ever (or a noun, or a verb, or an adj - you get the picture). He can't be the first dyslexic to have this problem. What are the big guns to fix this?

[PeterPan]

LOL, was somebody over on the LM board just asking about my little "genius" dd who memorized the defs so easily in FLL1/2 but couldn't APPLY them? Oh yeah baby. And I'm good at languages, took linguistics and advanced grammar and all sorts of things in college. :D

 

I picked the most humble, plodding, slightly humorous, gentle, SHORT, concrete, linguistically reasonable approach I could find (Shurley) and paired it with more sophisticated applied grammar in our writing programs (CW, WT, that sort of thing). That way she could learn on simple, simple sentences, not be blown away, and still have the chance occasionally to do something harder. Shurley was liquid gold in our house, the ultimate, highly recommend. 3 sentences a day, no pain, lots of gain. :)

 

Now we're doing the BJU 9, which isn't stellar for her but is at least thorough. It does a good job teaching editing and pointing out the way the students will actually USE the concepts and WHY they're issues.

 

The other one people talk about is Winston. Haven't used it myself. What I liked about Shurley was the Q&A flow. It was similar to the way we learned grammar for russian in college, and it's just a tremendous, tremendous tool. It leads them into concepts without making it this on the spot thing. Worked fabulously for her.

[WishboneDawn]

How old is he? I'm thinking he's grade 1 or 2? If so then why not settle for using MCT as the fun supplement and put formal applied grammar aside for a couple of years? Lots of us successfully delay grammar and chances are the fun bits of MCT will stick with him until then.

[FairProspects]

I have no idea of technical grade in his case, he's 8, but is an extreme case of 2E. I know he is at the point where he needs this skill because he is wanting to express what is going on in his head (which is a ton according to the neuropsych) but he is stymied by his working memory/processing speed/dyslexia and he is at the point with his writing where he really can't move on until he can at least identify and apply parts of speech. I can't explain it, but I just know this is the next skill he needs to keep moving him on his own trajectory.

[PeterPan]

You know, he might be a really good candidate for grammar through games. I've got one downstairs...

 

I'm back! What I've got is called Very Silly Sentences. Look it up on amazon. There's another one called Silly Sentences that is similar but has pieces with puzzle joints. My version has a spinner that has nouns, verbs, adjectives, lose a turn, that sort of thing. So you play and build fun sentences.

 

You might also find similar language-building through grammar ideas at Linguisystems or Super-Duper.

 

BTW, Shurley has a really kicked up activity where they give you labels and you create fun sentences from the labels. It's a skill we're continuing in Killgallon these days, only she has to remember the labels and figure them out from the models.

Edited September 11, 2012 by OhElizabeth

[Jennifer-72]

Have you looked at using a Montessori approach to grammar using the grammar box? Each part of speech has a different colored shaped symbol.

[FairProspects]

LOL, was somebody over on the LM board just asking about my little "genius" dd who memorized the defs so easily in FLL1/2 but couldn't APPLY them? Oh yeah baby. And I'm good at languages, took linguistics and advanced grammar and all sorts of things in college. :D[/Quote]

 

:lol:

 

I picked the most humble, plodding, slightly humorous, gentle, SHORT, concrete, linguistically reasonable approach I could find (Shurley) and paired it with more sophisticated applied grammar in our writing programs (CW, WT, that sort of thing). That way she could learn on simple, simple sentences, not be blown away, and still have the chance occasionally to do something harder. Shurley was liquid gold in our house, the ultimate, highly recommend. 3 sentences a day, no pain, lots of gain. :)

 

The other one people talk about is Winston. Haven't used it myself. What I liked about Shurley was the Q&A flow. It was similar to the way we learned grammar for russian in college, and it's just a tremendous, tremendous tool. It leads them into concepts without making it this on the spot thing. Worked fabulously for her.

 

I may have to check these out. Doesn't Winston color code? That might help. Ds just needs some kind of visual clue or something to him it is all just words, words, words.

[FairProspects]

Have you looked at using a Montessori approach to grammar using the grammar box? Each part of speech has a different colored shaped symbol.

 

Sounds very intriguing - how would I find out more? Is there a book or something?

[peacefully]

.

[fiddle]

Is this particular kiddo a visual kid? If so, I haven't used it but have heard great things about The Sentence Family. http://paideaclassics.org/index.php?cart_id=&ref=1640&show=book&sid=

 

Your dc might be a bit too young for this- not sure.

 

2nd choice was already mentioned- Winston is good, actually great for visual kids, too- it helps them SEE the different parts of speech. These two resources are for learning parts of speech and punctuation would have to be separate.

 

 

Paula

[PeterPan]

Or make colored labels yourself. Or write out the sentences on a whiteboard using different colored markers for each type. Or use colored magnet tiles with the part of speech written on them and use them to label the sentences you pre-write.

 

Diagramming was good for my dd and very visual. We did it in Shurley, just for one of those three sentences daily, and we did it on a whiteboard. We used to go through a lot of whiteboard markers around here, lol.

[PeterPan]

BTW, sometimes people think grammar means these 20-30 minute torture sessions with lots of writing, blah blah. For us it was 5-7 minutes, in/out, lots of laughing, using color and a whiteboard and humor. And we didn't do it every day at that age. We took say the Shurley 4 and spread it over two years, knowing we were hitting grammar in other, more applied ways in our writing, latin (which we were doing at the time), etc.

[Guest]

We do not have Dyslexia issues here but we will be using FLL 3 this year after we tried Shurley. We did not have any other issues with it other than it was a total drag :tongue_smilie:. The scripts went on for pages and pages and pages... and I am not a big fan of scripted programs, much less THAT scripted. I loved the program but did not realize how scripted it was, otherwise I never would have spent the money. I could have tweaked it but since I went to school back home (in Europe) grammar is not a strong point, so I wanted a program that would guide me also and tweaking was not an option I would consider in this case.

 

We loved PLL last year and completed the whole book. This year we are back to FLL and WWE. I assume you have already considered FLL so I won't go there. Have you looked at Easy Grammar, though? The first review in the Rainbow website that I am linking for you, is from a mother that used it with her dyslexic child.

 

http://www.rainbowresource.com/product/sku/037836/cb6637a10b3969f65cb8b571

 

Good luck with whatever you choose :)!

Edited September 12, 2012 by Guest

[peacefully]

.

[WishboneDawn]

I have no idea of technical grade in his case, he's 8, but is an extreme case of 2E. I know he is at the point where he needs this skill because he is wanting to express what is going on in his head (which is a ton according to the neuropsych) but he is stymied by his working memory/processing speed/dyslexia and he is at the point with his writing where he really can't move on until he can at least identify and apply parts of speech. I can't explain it, but I just know this is the next skill he needs to keep moving him on his own trajectory.

 

You're using MCT and FLL...I'm thinking MCT might be a little to loose for him to grasp then? And FLL addresses grammar but it's a very gentle introduction.

 

My son has some similar issues and we're using WWE and KISS. WWE because I really think the narration helps him organize his thoughts and express them. SWB has some great thoughts on that. He practices with other people's stories and then when it comes to he own ideas he knows some of the questions to ask of himself to express them clearly.

 

KISS is great because it's got a LOT of repetition, something your son may need, but also slowly builds the skills of parsing starting with just identifying subject and verb. It's sort of learning to build a sentence from the most basic components up. It's also based on context rather then memorized definitions of parts of speech so that if your son needs to understand why something is right, not just if it is right, then it might fit him better. Winston is similar with the slow building approach but is much more into memorized definitions. It's free so you could give it a try without any kind of financial commitment.

[FairProspects]

Saying this very gently—meekly even, since I don't have a dyslexic child—but in what way is his understanding of grammar affecting his writing? There are scores of wonderful writers who would be hard-pressed to identify a noun, much less any other part of speech. Lots of people construct their sentences by rhythm and feel than by assembling grammatical units. If grammar is creating this much of an emotional response, is there some other way to get to your goals for writing?

 

Because the way our writing program gets around the writer's block of word recall is to ask the student to write essentially by parts of speech, and since ds can't identify them, he is having trouble moving on. It will say write a sentence about pumpkins (being the subject or noun), then add a verb, use some adjectives to describe how, prepositional phrase for when, etc.

 

Plus it is a struggle to diagram since parts of speech are so tough, and I think he would really benefit from diagramming since it just maps visually what is going on in the sentence. If I can show him why his sentences don't work in a diagram, I think he would completely get the patterns of language. And yeah, he has no rhythm or feel for language at all, so he needs to be taught piece by piece for writing and with patterns.

[MomatHWTK]

You know, for a visual learner, I wonder if sentence diagramming isn't the way to go? I have been separating subjects and predicates with a line and it seems to actually appeal to my kids. (Who would've though?!)

 

I'm using Graded Lessons in English Grammar by Alonzo Reed as my own guide. (Free to print from internet). I am also using the information from Grammar Revolution.

[Guest]

Not Jennifer but one of the best guides for Montessori I know of are the NAMC guides. I did briefly consider going with Montessori for my boys but it was way too expensive for us and the materials, besides pricey, need a lot of space. If you are only using one subject though, you should not have a problem. The guide is still pretty pricey, I find, even for LA only. Anyway, here's the website:

 

http://www.montessoritraining.net/curriculum_materials/introduction.htm

 

In reference to my previous post, sorry, I did not notice in your signature that you were already using FLL.

Edited September 11, 2012 by Guest

[WishboneDawn]

You know, for a visual learner, I wonder if sentence diagramming isn't the way to go? I have been separating subjects and predicates with a line and it seems to actually appeal to my kids. (Who would've though?!)

 

I'm using Graded Lessons in English Grammar by Alonzo Reed as my own guide. (Free to print from internet). I am also using the information from Grammar Revolution.

 

Rex Barks is an excellent and affordable resource for diagramming as well.

[Guest]

The guide is still pretty pricey, I find, even for LA only.

 

Just to clarify here that Montessori works with levels/ age groups so the price covers a range and might be worth your while if it works for you son and if you don't mind spending $150 up front for the guide.

[RamonaQ]

Awhile ago I found Framing Your Thoughts and I really wished I had found something like that when ds was younger....

 

Maybe worth a look?

[PeterPan]

Because the way our writing program gets around the writer's block of word recall is to ask the student to write essentially by parts of speech, and since ds can't identify them, he is having trouble moving on. It will say write a sentence about pumpkins (being the subject or noun), then add a verb, use some adjectives to describe how, prepositional phrase for when, etc.

 

Plus it is a struggle to diagram since parts of speech are so tough, and I think he would really benefit from diagramming since it just maps visually what is going on in the sentence. If I can show him why his sentences don't work in a diagram, I think he would completely get the patterns of language. And yeah, he has no rhythm or feel for language at all, so he needs to be taught piece by piece for writing and with patterns.

 

Fair Prospects, whatever curriculum is trying to get him to do that is jumping to the END of a process without walking him through it. When we started diagramming, we were diagramming the Shurley sentences from their gr 2 book. That's a subject, verb, adverb. That's it. And as Shurley slowly added parts of speech, our diagramming grew. You don't just plop a SN kid a bunch of labels and say go, kwim? You walk them up to it, do it in context.

 

We also did writing from sentence labels in Shurley, and we did Mad Libs before that. Either of those would be precursor skills to this idea of building a sentence via dress-ups. And that game I linked you to would be a simpler version of the same skill. It's all building a foundation by starting off with simpler examples. He's gone to the hardest way to do it. You might just need to back up and build some experience doing it simpler ways.

 

When we did WT2 (which we actually did in 3rd along with Shurley 4), they played a lot of GAMES to cover the parts of speech and pull them into contexts. I can't even remember all the games now, but they were FABULOUS. It gave them a way to explore the concept of nouns or adverbs or adjectives in a context, creatively, non-threateningly. It too would be a precursor skill to what you're being asked to do in your grammar program.

 

I'm all about foundations. I figure she's bright enough I can get her anywhere, but I can't get there without a firmly built foundation. And he might go through some of those easier steps very, very quickly, kwim? Sometimes it just takes a little bit for it to click. It's not like you would stay at the level of playing Very Silly Sentences very long. You'd just do it long enough (or convert your current grammar lesson task into a game of similar format) to let it click. Seriously, you could make up word cards and a spinner and do exactly like Very Silly Sentences, only using his words the grammar is trying to get him to use. Build him into it.

[FairProspects]

Awhile ago I found Framing Your Thoughts and I really wished I had found something like that when ds was younger....

 

Maybe worth a look?

 

Fair Prospects, whatever curriculum is trying to get him to do that is jumping to the END of a process without walking him through it. When we started diagramming, we were diagramming the Shurley sentences from their gr 2 book. That's a subject, verb, adverb. That's it. And as Shurley slowly added parts of speech, our diagramming grew. You don't just plop a SN kid a bunch of labels and say go, kwim? You walk them up to it, do it in context.

 

We also did writing from sentence labels in Shurley, and we did Mad Libs before that. Either of those would be precursor skills to this idea of building a sentence via dress-ups. And that game I linked you to would be a simpler version of the same skill. It's all building a foundation by starting off with simpler examples. He's gone to the hardest way to do it. You might just need to back up and build some experience doing it simpler ways.

 

When we did WT2 (which we actually did in 3rd along with Shurley 4), they played a lot of GAMES to cover the parts of speech and pull them into contexts. I can't even remember all the games now, but they were FABULOUS. It gave them a way to explore the concept of nouns or adverbs or adjectives in a context, creatively, non-threateningly. It too would be a precursor skill to what you're being asked to do in your grammar program.

 

I'm all about foundations. I figure she's bright enough I can get her anywhere, but I can't get there without a firmly built foundation. And he might go through some of those easier steps very, very quickly, kwim? Sometimes it just takes a little bit for it to click. It's not like you would stay at the level of playing Very Silly Sentences very long. You'd just do it long enough (or convert your current grammar lesson task into a game of similar format) to let it click. Seriously, you could make up word cards and a spinner and do exactly like Very Silly Sentences, only using his words the grammar is trying to get him to use. Build him into it.

 

Both of these look like good options. I ordered Very Silly Sentences, and I'm going to see if I can find Framing Your Thoughts for less. It's quite expensive on Amazon right now. I looked at KISS but even the 2nd grade level would overwhelm ds. He really needs something visual or color-coded. After we play some games, I may look at Winston, but my brain is fried for today. Math and LA both seem to be in constant flux in opposite directions and it is exhausting!

[Dobela]

My son does best with Winston Grammar. It is for parts of speech only, but there is a card for every word in every sentence with visual cues. I do few minutes of that daily with daily grams to practice the punctuation and other grammar skills.

[RamonaQ]

Both of these look like good options. I ordered Very Silly Sentences, and I'm going to see if I can find Framing Your Thoughts for less. It's quite expensive on Amazon right now.

 

I have wondered if you could do something similar to the Framing Your THoughs with just coding sentences from a traditional grammar book. When I was researching this awhile ago, I found a school district in Ca that had done exactly this, correlating the FYT to a Holt grammar handbook.

 

http://sdc.rusdtech.net/new_page_10.htm

 

My guess would be that if you just take some simple sentences, and code them, allowing your ds to see the patterns of symbols (staring off of course with really simple subj/verb...and then slowly adding adjective, adverb...), this will allow him to see the patterns.

 

Next, you could also make a chart once you have identified the nouns vs. the verbs to compare and contrast. Finally you could use nouns/ verbs from the chart to make your own sentences. These types of charts could also help him with your writing program you described (since he has to start with a noun etc...perhaps the charts/ coded sentences will cue him).

[HistoryBuff]

When we get bored with grammar (I have not really taught grammar in 3 years but I am trying to slip some in now my son is in high school) I go online and we play MadLibs.

 

Yes, those MadLibs.

 

It's silly and we can learn parts of speech.

 

Grammar is boring---and I was an English major!!

[Heathermomster]

We use Winston basic and review 3-5 sentences per day. I've purchased AG, Rex Barks, and another book for diagramming but ultimately opted to keep things simple with parsing. At 8 yo, your child may simply not be ready for sentence diagramming and these concepts are very abstract.

 

Have you seen the books written by Brian Cleary? These books were mentioned a few weeks ago, over on the main board.