Best commentary I've read so far about the Chick-fil-a controversy

[Jenny in Florida]

http://hotair.com/archives/2011/12/29/requirement-to-consider-gay-couples-for-adoption-forces-illinois-catholic-charities-affiliates-to-close/

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/15/illinois-catholic-chariti_n_1093649.html

 

"Peter Breen of the Thomas More Society described the "dismantling" of the charities' foster care ministry as "a tragic end to 90 years of foster care service by some of the most effective child welfare agencies in Illinois."

 

http://www.catholic.org/national/national_story.php?id=41680

 

"Some believe that the new civil unions law will not effect religious organizations such as the Catholic Church. And some homosexual advocates are claiming that the Church's decision to shut down its adoption and foster care services is a sign of intolerance. But when a bill, SB 1123, was proposed to amend certain language in the law in order to protect religious liberty, the amendment was attacked by homosexual activists and defeated by one vote.

This is not the first time something like this has happened. Catholic services in other states have also been forced to shut down. Catholic Charities of the Archdiocese of Washington D.C. was forced to shut down their foster care and public adoption program due to a law recognizing same-sex marriage that went into effect in 2010. The law requires that religious organizations serving the general public must provide services to homosexuals regardless of their religious beliefs. District lawmakers could have granted an exemption to the archdiocese, but they chose to force it to compromise Church teaching on marriage or shut down its programs. In a Catholic News Agency article, Bill Donohue, the president of the Catholic League for Religious and Civil Liberties, said, "Archbishop Wuerl [of the Archdiocese of Washington D.C.] isn't about to allow the state to run roughshod over Catholic doctrine, and that is why he is being forced to drop the foster-care program."

Something similar also happened in the state of Massachusetts. Catholic Charities of Boston was forced to shut down unless it agreed to place children with homosexuals. New state licensing laws in 2006 required that Catholic agencies facilitate adoptions for same-sex couples. According to an article by Father Robert J. Carr, in a joint statement, bishops from four Catholic dioceses in Massachusetts said, ". . . if Catholic agencies were required to help same-sex couples adopt children in violation of church teaching prohibiting the practice it would present 'a serious pastoral problem' and threaten religious freedom."

Apparently, this has also happened in England and Wales. Marianne Medlin writes, "Last August, a local commission ruled that the last remaining agency, Catholic Care, was not justified in its refusal to place children with same-sex couples because of its religious beliefs."

 

 

As I understand it, skimming the first two articles, the issue wasn't that the agency was required to allow LGBT couples to adopt. It was that they could not practice discrimination regarding adoption AND receive government money.

 

 

"The months-long legal saga in Illinois concerning whether several Catholic Charities agencies can continue to deny adoption and foster care placements to same-sex parents while still receiving state funding appears to be coming to an end."

 

That last one, unfortunately, was hardly from an unbiased source. And they kept using the phrase "forced to shut down" without explaining what that meant. Since they referred to the case in which the issue was funding and lumped it in the same group, I'm a little skeptical.

 

I see this as being pretty much like the BSA. I actually believe that they should have a right to run their organization in a way that is consistent with their values. However, when those values contradict with non-discrimination laws, I think the organizations should have to forfeit government funding. That is not the same as "being forced to shut down." It just means paying your own way.

[Joanne]

Hmmm... It really seems like this conversation (what it has turned into, anyway) was just had recently...

 

I'm beginning to get bored with the whole CFA thing.

It's funny, though - I didn't hear huge rallies to boycott them before the CEO said what he said. They supported the causes before that. They have always been well known as Christians (the CEO's family). The restaurant is closed on Sundays - Idk, I just don't see why these comments caused such a huge uproar. They shouldn't have come as a surprise to anyone, IMO. :)

And I'm also for not including politics in food. I really don't care. I had never even heard of the JCP thing - people didn't buy from there because Ellen was their spokeswoman or something? Did they refuse to buy Cover Girl makeup, too? :lol: Do they watching Finding Nemo? I mean, really? I said it in the last thread and I'll say it here, too - people are just boycott happy, I think. :tongue_smilie:

Welcome to the US! Boycott and Sue anyone you like!

I honestly don't know why it's so fascinating to others to be all up in the personal lives of everyone else.

 

Here's one reason (ok, I ended up posting 3):

 

Sexual minority teens are dying.

 

Many are bullied and tortured.

 

Sexual minorities have higher rates of addiction, suicide, and self harm.

 

Being against homosexuality is on the continuum of the hate that creates the hostile culture in which homosexuals live.

[NatashainDFW]

I think she says some great things. I wonder if Cathy's donations quit going to FRC if people would have as many issues with this whole thing. Reading more about what is going on I don't think as a Christian we should be supporting a group that thinks killing homosexuals is okay. I have no issue with his beliefs, I have no issue with him supporting groups that support the Christian ideal BUT we should all be careful who we provide money to. We should all research what groups are lobying for or against and speak up if it is something we don't agree with. My loving God would never think killing a person over his sexuality would be ok. It is not our job to judge our brothers and sisters. Maybe, just maybe if enough Christians looked into the organizations that claim to share our faith we would eliminate the hate that has become associated with us.

[Singingmom]

I think she says some great things. I wonder if Cathy's donations quit going to FRC if people would have as many issues with this whole thing. Reading more about what is going on I don't think as a Christian we should be supporting a group that thinks killing homosexuals is okay. I have no issue with his beliefs, I have no issue with him supporting groups that support the Christian ideal BUT we should all be careful who we provide money to. We should all research what groups are lobying for or against and speak up if it is something we don't agree with. My loving God would never think killing a person over his sexuality would be ok. It is not our job to judge our brothers and sisters. Maybe, just maybe if enough Christians looked into the organizations that claim to share our faith we would eliminate the hate that has become associated with us.

 

Wait....did I miss something??? Who said anything about killing gays or anybody else??

[Jenny in Florida]

It's funny, though - I didn't hear huge rallies to boycott them before the CEO said what he said. They supported the causes before that.

 

Yes, they did. And people who follow such things haven't bought Chick-fil-a food for a long time. A quick Google search will turn up articles going back several years discussing these issues.

 

Students at a number of colleges and universities have been protesting the opening of Chick-fil-a outlets on campus for some time now.

 

This isn't, as they say, "new news." It's just more prominent.

 

(Actually, something I noticed when I was poking around a few days ago is that the last time this blew up, early in 2011, Mr. Cathy made all kinds of statements suggesting they were not going to continue to be involved in anything political. At the time, he claimed they were not taking any official stance on same-sex marriage and that they "had no agenda against anyone." Donating tons of money to organizations that are actively working against a particular group of people doesn't seem to me like it's consistent with those statements.)

[NatashainDFW]

The FRC lobbied for the US Congress to NOT condemn Uganda's "Kill the Gays" bill. This is public record and noted on their 2010 Lobbying Report.

[Jenny in Florida]

Wait....did I miss something??? Who said anything about killing gays or anybody else??

 

The FRC lobbied against Congressional approval of a resoluton denouncing the infamous Ugandan bill that would have allowed putting pieople to death for being homosexual.

[Spy Car]

Wait....did I miss something??? Who said anything about killing gays or anybody else??

 

The Family Research Council was the financial backer pushing legislation in Uganda that would make homosexual conduct a capital crime. In other worlds they pushed efforts that would kill gays.

 

Chick-lil-a is a financial backer of the FRC. We vote for the kind of world we want to live in with our dollars.

 

Bill

[PeacefulChaos]

Yes, they did. And people who follow such things haven't bought Chick-fil-a food for a long time. A quick Google search will turn up articles going back several years discussing these issues.

 

Students at a number of colleges and universities have been protesting the opening of Chick-fil-a outlets on campus for some time now.

 

This isn't, as they say, "new news." It's just more prominent.

 

(Actually, something I noticed when I was poking around a few days ago is that the last time this blew up, early in 2011, Mr. Cathy made all kinds of statements suggesting they were not going to continue to be involved in anything political. At the time, he claimed they were not taking any official stance on same-sex marriage and that they "had no agenda against anyone." Donating tons of money to organizations that are actively working against a particular group of people doesn't seem to me like it's consistent with those statements.)

I see. It must be all the media coverage that I find eyeroll-worthy. Clearly the people who it was important to already were doing something about it, kwim? Now it's just the media blowing things out of proportion and there's this idea of taking sides. (I'm talking the CFA thing in particular here, not anything else related to it.)

(I did see from a link elsewhere that someone had, in the past, given the LGBT community a 'heads up' as to where CFA's money was going, now that I think about it. I just hadn't heard of it before last week. :) )

Here's one reason (ok, I ended up posting 3):

 

Sexual minority teens are dying.

 

Many are bullied and tortured.

 

Sexual minorities have higher rates of addiction, suicide, and self harm.

 

Being against homosexuality is on the continuum of the hate that creates the hostile culture in which homosexuals live.

Ok... I'm not trying to be dense... but you quoted my post and I'm not sure what I said that your reason(s) are referring to. Sorry. :)

[LucyStoner]

Wait....did I miss something??? Who said anything about killing gays or anybody else??

 

The FRC paid lobbyists to lobby against a resolution condemning Uganda's plan to execute people for the crime of being gay. CFA money has gone to FRC. The FRC's agenda and lobbying choices go against a lot of people's morals and beliefs. Also the pray the gay away and gay treatment programs have continued to a lot of suffering, including runaways and sucides.

 

According to the FRC’s official lobbying report for the first quarter of 2010, they paid two of their henchmen $25,000 to lobby Congress against approving a resolution denouncing Uganda’s plan to execute homosexuals. The resolution passed in the Senate on April 13th, but remains languished in the House almost four months after being referred to the Foreign Affairs Committee. Did the FRC’s lobbying kill it?

[Jenny in Florida]

I see. It must be all the media coverage that I find eyeroll-worthy. Clearly the people who it was important to already were doing something about it, kwim? Now it's just the media blowing things out of proportion and there's this idea of taking sides. (I'm talking the CFA thing in particular here, not anything else related to it.)

 

I don't agree that this is being blown out of proportion, actually. I found it interesting that less than two years ago, Mr. Cathy was making much less angry statements about the company's political involvement. It sounds to me like he at least (as a representative of his corporation) is getting much bolder and more emphatic about speaking out on these issues. Maybe this escalation is making some people increasingly aware and uncomfortable.

 

And, clearly, there were lots of people who hadn't been following this story and didn't know about Chick-fil-a's practices. I did, because this kind of thing hits close to home. But perhaps it wasn't as widely known as it is is now that Mr. Cathy was so outspoken in that interview.

 

 

Ok... I'm not trying to be dense... but you quoted my post and I'm not sure what I said that your reason(s) are referring to. Sorry. :)

 

I suspect she was responding to this comment:

 

I honestly don't know why it's so fascinating to others to be all up in the personal lives of everyone else.

[PeacefulChaos]

I don't agree that this is being blown out of proportion, actually. I found it interesting that less than two years ago, Mr. Cathy was making much less angry statements about the company's political involvement. It sounds to me like he at least (as a representative of his corporation) is getting much bolder and more emphatic about speaking out on these issues. Maybe this escalation is making some people increasingly aware and uncomfortable.

 

And, clearly, there were lots of people who hadn't been following this story and didn't know about Chick-fil-a's practices. I did, because this kind of thing hits close to home. But perhaps it wasn't as widely known as it is is now that Mr. Cathy was so outspoken in that interview.

 

I guess I just feel like the media gets all involved and stuff now, after the fact, because they think it'll sensationalize and sell the story. I don't know. I honestly don't really care about the whole thing. I guess I just don't really have an opinion on it, so I'm just tired of hearing about it, kwim? It's old. It's like back when Arnold Schwarzawhatever divorced his wife and all that mess. It was on the news for weeks. I was so tired of it. I feel the same about this.

[NatashainDFW]

I think if the issues with CFA's donations had been brought up on a wider scale before Cathy's recent interview people would see why there is an issue much easier. It wouldn't be about Cathy's words (which honestly it isn't) and would be about where the money is going. Do I have an issue with young, Christian's who define themselves as homosexual being counseled to pray and find strength in their faith before getting involved with someone of the same sex? No because it is what I would tell my children but I do have an issue with slandering an entire group of people or practicing hate and being okay with murdering in the name of my God.

[PeacefulChaos]

I suspect she was responding to this comment:

 

Interesting. I wouldn't have considered the two things related. I see no reason for me to be in the business of who is gay and who isn't, etc, nor would I try to form my opinions of businesses or movies or whatnot based on that.

[PeacefulChaos]

Oh, and as far as the link/article in the OP, I did read it (forgot to post about it after I read the replies) but found it to be condescending and holier than thou. JMO.

[Singingmom]

Ok...well, obviously I could never support that kind of extreme measure...putting homosexuals to death. We all sin and all deserve punishment. But, i believe Christ paid for all of our sins...including that of homosexual behavior. I don't believe that sexual sins are worse than any other kind.

 

I think pastor Rick Warren spoke out against this situation in Uganda...I remember reading something about it now. Here is a quote from him that sums up how I feel about this whole thing and how our society tends to react to those of us who don't agree with homosexual behavior:

 

‎"Our culture has accepted two huge lies. The first is that if you disagree with someone's lifestyle, you must fear them or hate them. The second is that to love someone means you agree with everything they believe or do. Both are nonsense. You don't have to compromise convictions to be compassionate." -Rick Warren

[NatashainDFW]

‎"Our culture has accepted two huge lies. The first is that if you disagree with someone's lifestyle, you must fear them or hate them. The second is that to love someone means you agree with everything they believe or do. Both are nonsense. You don't have to compromise convictions to be compassionate." -Rick Warren

 

Thank you so much for this!!

[Mandy in TN]

chicken sandwich

chicken nuggets

waffle fries

ice dream

milk shakes

 

CFA is so yummy.

 

While I don't give one wit bit about the CEO's stance on gay marriage (he is entitled to his opinion) and can't do a darn thing about what he chooses to support with his own money, I sincerely hope that his remarks put a bright enough spotlight on CFA that the company feels enough heat to change where they donate their $.

 

Mandy

[Spy Car]

Ok...well, obviously I could never support that kind of extreme measure...putting homosexuals to death. We all sin and all deserve punishment. But, i believe Christ paid for all of our sins...including that of homosexual behavior. I don't believe that sexual sins are worse than any other kind.

 

I think pastor Rick Warren spoke out against this situation in Uganda...I remember reading something about it now. Here is a quote from him that sums up how I feel about this whole thing and how our society tends to react to those of us who don't agree with homosexual behavior:

 

‎"Our culture has accepted two huge lies. The first is that if you disagree with someone's lifestyle, you must fear them or hate them. The second is that to love someone means you agree with everything they believe or do. Both are nonsense. You don't have to compromise convictions to be compassionate." -Rick Warren

 

Rick Warren, who has tremendous influence in Uganda, was very late to the party in condemning the legislation to kill gays there.

 

It was only after the fire-storm caused by having the leading sponsor of the legislation, Pastor Martin Ssempa, speak at his church (Saddleback) as his guest, and an initial lame response claiming he was only involved in "moral" issues and not the internal politics of other nations, that Warren (who was getting withering criticism around the world) changed his public stance and condemned the legislation to kill gays.

 

While his stand was better late than never, it was hardly a great show of moral leadership.

 

Bill

[NatashainDFW]

Mandy, I hope so too. I hope that we all learn from this and that we all take the extra time to really research what groups we give money to. As a Christian I am very tired of groups claiming to share my faith being full of hatred. It makes Christians as a whole look very bad.

[Sue G in PA]

Natasha, I'm liking your posts! As a Christian, I find it deplorable that another group can call itself Christian in its values (FRC) when it is actively promoting the killing of another human being b/c of sexual orientation...actively promoting sin (b/c most of us agree, Christian or not, that murder is sin). But let us take this a step further. God looks at all sin equally..murder, lying, adultery, drunkennes, covetousness, etc. It's all the same to him. Sin is sin. As Christians, can we in good conscience promote/encourage/support ANY sin? I don't think so! The Bible tells us to admonish/rebuke/correct our brothers and sisters who are caught in sin. Not JUDGE them (for that is God's job) but to CORRECT them. This is a very loving act if done correctly as it will cause that person to repent of the sin, which leads to forgiveness and salvation! Correction is often not comfortable or pleasant! In fact, it often just plain HURTS. But just bc said correction hurts, doesn't mean it is hateful! We admonish or correct our children all the time b/c we love them! Once we become enslaved to or entangled in sin, it isn't easy to free ourselves without God's help. It can be near impossible. And it is often excruciating to let go of a sin that brings you such pleasure or has become a habit. The enemy counts on it. Homosexuality is no different. Adultery is no different. Addiction is no different. And this has nothing to do with CFA. I am speaking to Christians here. If you are not a Christian, this obviously will not apply to you. It is simply what I believe to be true.

[Singingmom]

I agree with you, Natasha. We do need to be careful to look into who we give money to, to make sure they really do reflect what we believe. I don't tend to give money to politically oriented Christian groups, anyway. I prefer ministries with strong humanitarian/ relief services.

[NatashainDFW]

Sue I agree with you. I believe it is my job as a Christian to share what the Bible says but judging someone for going against it is not my job. It is my job to lead a Christian life and to be an example.

[Singingmom]

Natasha, I'm liking your posts! As a Christian, I find it deplorable that another group can call itself Christian in its values (FRC) when it is actively promoting the killing of another human being b/c of sexual orientation...actively promoting sin (b/c most of us agree, Christian or not, that murder is sin). But let us take this a step further. God looks at all sin equally..murder, lying, adultery, drunkennes, covetousness, etc. It's all the same to him. Sin is sin. As Christians, can we in good conscience promote/encourage/support ANY sin? I don't think so! The Bible tells us to admonish/rebuke/correct our brothers and sisters who are caught in sin. Not JUDGE them (for that is God's job) but to CORRECT them. This is a very loving act if done correctly as it will cause that person to repent of the sin, which leads to forgiveness and salvation! Correction is often not comfortable or pleasant! In fact, it often just plain HURTS. But just bc said correction hurts, doesn't mean it is hateful! We admonish or correct our children all the time b/c we love them! Once we become enslaved to or entangled in sin, it isn't easy to free ourselves without God's help. It can be near impossible. And it is often excruciating to let go of a sin that brings you such pleasure or has become a habit. The enemy counts on it. Homosexuality is no different. Adultery is no different. Addiction is no different. And this has nothing to do with CFA. I am speaking to Christians here. If you are not a Christian, this obviously will not apply to you. It is simply what I believe to be true.

 

 

This was such a wonderful post.....so full of truth and grace. Thank you!

[ElizaG]

No because it is what I would tell my children but I do have an issue with slandering an entire group of people or practicing hate and being okay with murdering in the name of my God.

But where are people getting the idea that the Family Research Council is "okay with murdering in the name of God?" :001_huh:

 

I'm not a supporter of that organization, and didn't follow the story closely at the time, but according to CBS News and Washington Post archives, the FRC said that they were against the death penalty for homosexual acts, but were asking for changes to the wording of the congressional resolution, e.g., "to remove sweeping and inaccurate assertions that homosexual conduct is internationally recognized as a fundamental human right."

 

Which sounds about like what one would expect from a group like theirs. And it looks like those changes were made. But the type of lobbying they describe is nothing like what they (and, by extension, the chicken folks) are being accused of.

 

But I shouldn't ever slander homosexuals by assigning some malicious agenda to them

 

:iagree:-- nor should one slander Christian groups or individuals in that way, either.

Edited August 2, 2012 by Eleanor

[NatashainDFW]

It is based on their Lobbying Report which showed they paid $25k for the abandonment of the resolution. (basing this off the screenshot of it that was posted elsewhere) They also have gone so far as to say that homosexuals have a pedophilia agenda. I am sorry but I cannot support a group that slanders an entire group of people because of their sexual orientation. Pedophiles come in all shapes and sizes. If the FRC says Catholic priests had a pedophilia agenda that wouldn't go over very well with the majority of Christians yet it is ok for them to say the same about another group of people? This organization is full of hate in the name of Christianity which is not ok.

[LucyStoner]

Pedophiles come in all shapes and sizes. If the FRC says Catholic priests had a pedophilia agenda that wouldn't go over very well with the majority of Christians yet it is ok for them to say the same about another group of people? This organization is full of hate in the name of Christianity which is not ok.

 

To say nothing of the fact that most pedophiles are heterosexual males. We certainly don't generalize from that that most straight males are pedophiles yet somehow there are many who say that

about gay males. If that is not hateful, I dunno what is.

Edited August 2, 2012 by kijipt

[ElizaG]

It is based on their Lobbying Report which showed they paid $25k for the abandonment of the resolution.

The screen shot of the report that's been posted online doesn't say anything about "abandonment," though. It just says it was regarding "Ugandan Resolution Pro-homosexual promotion." And their representative said that they were they were lobbying for changes to the wording of the resolution (see above). Which were made, as far as I can tell.

 

So it seems that the details of this particular issue have been grossly twisted, in order to make this organization seem like a bunch of hypocrites who don't care about murdering people, etc., etc.. Which just confirms what I've found in the past with SPLC and people in the media who promote their evaluations. It's kind of ironic that they're in the business of accusing others of errors, exaggeration, and bias.

Edited August 2, 2012 by Eleanor

[NatashainDFW]

I am sorry but the mere fact that they held up this resolution is just sad. Even IF, and I will say if because I have a hard time believing their statement about being asked to help reword a resolution that has something to do with homosexuality which they are so definetly against, that is all they did they are still spreading so much hate in the name of a loving God.

[ElizaG]

I am sorry but the mere fact that they held up this resolution is just sad.

Even if it's an issue that arouses people's compassion, it doesn't follow that our representatives should just pass it right through immediately, if it includes some other sections with which many Americans might disagree strongly. Without knowing what the specific issues were with the wording, and who asked them to get involved, I don't see how we can say one way or the other.

 

BTW, the guy who originally posted the document on his blog stated that the FRC "paid two of their henchmen $25,000 to lobby Congress against approving [this] resolution" -- and he did a cut and paste job to make the report look that way, too. But it turns out that that amount wasn't just for this particular issue; it was their total lobbying expense for the quarter. The full report (linked from this page) shows that it went to more than a dozen different bills and whatnot. But I guess it's just not as impressive to say, "they spent about $1500 to get some wording changed," as, "they spent $25K to kill the resolution."

 

So, I am sorry, too. Sorry this blog person feels so desperate that he's willing to set aside the truth in order to get his point across.

[LisaKinVA]

To say nothing of the fact that most pedophiles are heterosexual males. We certainly don't generalize from that that most straight males are pedophiles yet somehow there are many who say that

about gay males. If that is not hateful, I dunno what is.

 

The generalization is made, because of groups like NAMBLA, it isn't fair, and FRC should reference the specific group, not homosexuals generally. Here is the WIKI article regarding them. When leaders such as Kevin Jennings (Obama's first safe school czar) don't report things like a 15yo having s*x with an older man, when he was a teacher, and praise men like Harry Hay (one of NAMBLA's founders, I believe), or march with them in Gay Pride parades, without condemning this group (Nancy Pelosi, I believe)...it becomes easier for groups to make a broader claim.

 

However, as far as I can tell, the homosexual community in the larger sense has worked to remove known NAMBLA groups, supporters, etc. from parades, places of leadership within the community as well (I refer ti a Lesbian led effort to picket the NYC gay pride parade, because the organizers had been associated with NAMBLA). It's been awhile since I've written on these issues, so please forgive me if my references (there are a lot of sources of varying stripes on google), are a bit off.

[FiveOaksAcademy]

:iagree: And THIS is the REAL issue. It's not about gay rights or gay marriage or gay anything. I supported CFA today b/c I support free speech and freedom of religion. Period.

 

:iagree: We had an awesome experience. The parking lot was crammed full, the side roads and service road next to the interstate had people parked along it. Everyone was kind and polite, despite the lines. There was a positive feeling because we were using our money as a voice, purchasing awesome food, in order to defend an owner's right to voice their Biblical worldview. All this in spite of the political agenda to shut Christians up! I can't wait to find out how much $$ they made yesterday!! The people spoke, and the message was clear!! :001_smile: