Kids Asked About College

[FaithManor]

While dh and I do not believe college for all is wise because it isn't a good fit for everyone, we also do not want to limit our children's options. Therefore, we do college prep and extracurriculars and AP's and to be honest with you, our kids haven't missed out, they haven't been too pressured, they've really had a nice balance. I think it's because we don't aim for IVY and since we are anti-big debt, we are aiming for really solid public U's though the kids will apply to some private ones just to see what is offered. But, Michigan has U of M (tier 1 and fairly high too), MSU (tier 1) and MTU (tier 1), and other tier 1 midwestern schools that aren't budget breakers so with just some decent scholarships and a little money (not a big amount by any stretch), the boys can come out low debt or debt free depending on the course of study and such. All of these are good choices for the careers they are interested in and that's a sigh of relief because there isn't any pressure to get into Ivy's or the like and they won't need them to be gainfully employed in their fields of interest.

 

Living in Michigan has also brought home to us just how much college is used as the "high school education" of one or two generations ago. With the unemployment rate high, employers can get BA's and BS's for much lower pay than they used to and they figure that since the person put in four years of harder work and achieved that goal, they have a better chance of them being good employees since the local PS's are handing out diplomas like candy for just about zero effort...sad to say, but discrimination against non-college students is very, very high in my area...many of the jobs being offered are not remotely degree related, but you better have one to apply.

 

Entrepreneurship is not an option. Businesses are going bankrupt left and right here. The banks will not loan a dime to anyone who does not have a business degree and a high faluting plan on how they are going to achieve X profit margin and quickly. The banks here have seriously zipped the money bags closed. We don't have the money our kids would need to open any kind of business in a state this heavily regulated. Trade schools...we have some good ones...but, with the bankruptcy rate at an all time high, unemployment in the trades is just skyrocketing. We know amazing drywallers, brick masons, roofers, pavers, plumbers, electricians, etc. all out of business, out of jobs, and moving out of state to find work. It's horrible here and it's that way across many areas of the midwest, so we aren't comfortable pushing for trades either.

 

That said, my preference would be for my kids to be educated for the thing they love and are passionate about. But, we have to be pragmatic and consider that in their own best interests they need a broad and deep academic education and extracurriculars that will allow them to cultivate contacts, get letters of reference, and have many experiences. Whether they end up at state police academy, in the military, opening a cake decorating and catering shop (though I can't imagine them living here and doing it because three caterers in our county have gone out of business recently), med-school, aerospace design, political science, or whatever....the best we can do is prepare them, prepare them, prepare them.

 

Our other concern is that if they do not go to college as young adults and then end up in jobs in which their employer later says, "you must get a degree" (happening to a number of individuals in our church), it is SOOOOOOOOOOO much harder to do it married with kids, trying to maintain a house and responsibilities, than it is when they are young and have few attachments. Additionally, the unfortunate way our university system is designed, dictates that most of the merit and financial aid will go to traditional students and not 45 year olds needing to bag a management degree (or whatever) in as short a period of time as possible. So, I worry about that.

 

Some of our friends that are being required to go back to school in order to keep the same position and do the same job (don't ask me how I feel about how a lot of corporations function :banghead:), really can't afford the tuition. They are getting STUDENT LOANS at a time in their lives when they should be trying to achieve getting everything paid off! It's nuts! It is the crazy world we live in. I don't want to do anything that would leave me playing "what if" about my homeschooling. That's just me! I'm a worrier for certain. But, it drives me to do this classical education that will prepare them for humanities with HUGE emphasis that is not typical of classical education on math and science achievement, while learning metal casting, woodworking, and farm sitting, and participating in 4-H and on a competitive rocketry team. Somehow, while I know we can't give them the whole enchilada because we aren't perfect and we don't have the resources to provide "it all", we hope to give them enough that they'll easily be able to adapt, cross-train, and make up the difference.

 

I do agree with the debt issue and I agree that at some point the merry-go-round that is higher education in America is going to have to stop spinning and do some major playground revamping. I definitely agree that in some areas of the States, there are good trades and entrepreneurial options. My state is not one of them....the business and licensing regs here are INSANE, the licensing fees are equally mind numbing, the cost of doing business...even a very little one...makes one gasp for air, and since our PS's have become nothing more than diploma mills in which no real achievement is connected with the paper, the BA/BS is the default for employment and that includes even clerking at the supermarket...I am not kidding! It is ridiculous. But, that's where we are at, so prepare, prepare, prepare is our motto.

 

The person who was pressuring the OP's sixth grade child is another example of the whackadoodles that have been talked about on this board so much lately. People without reasonable social boundaries abound!

 

Faith

[catz]

Thanks so much for understanding what I am trying to say here, Jackie! i have been a little confused at some of the responses as well, as I thought I couldn't have made it any clearer that i am not anti-college nor am I limited our kids options...OK, maybe I am limiting them from consideration at Harvard...hahaha! I am betting that won't be much of an issue for ours though :-)

 

Cindy

 

Personally, I get tired of the insinuation that you can't be entrepreneurial, creative, or productive if you go the "traditional" route of getting a degree. Also the thought that those that are going down a college prep road are letting our kid's childhoods be burned up by building up a college resume and test prep. I consider my kids headed down a college prep path, but their college resume and test scores are going to be products of their interests, education, and abilities (I hope - not all kids are good test takers. I hope their test scores reflect their true academic abilities at that time). I think of a college application as a (tiny) reflection of a childhood and teen years, not the end result or goal. Not that there aren't parents out there like that, but I doubt it's the majority.

 

I was just listening to PR tonight and a financial planner pulled out stats on how over the course of a lifetime college grads are more employable and earn considerably more money on average. I don't think college is for everyone (in fact, I feel strongly it isn't). Other post grad options are great too - military or trade or AA. At least for my kids, having more future options open, not less is where it's at. I do agree that a high degree of debt for your average liberal arts undergrad degree is ridiculous though.

 

I do totally agree that the person that was grilling your 6th graders was completely out of line. Glad my 11 year old hasn't been hit with that yet! :001_smile: I wouldn't be defensive about it and go into your whole philosophy. I would just say "we'll see when the time comes. How about that weather?".

Edited July 9, 2012 by kck

[Joanne]

Maybe my range of experience is limited, but I haven't seen or experienced exclusive, hyper, or dysfunctional emphasis on *college*.

 

I also learned early on in my parenting (which as fairly alternative in early years) to not sacrifice my children on the altar of "alternative" in ways that would hurt them as I agendize.

 

I take college as reality that a basic formal education is necessary for a baseline, level playing field in the U.S. today. Entrepreneurial spirits are great, but I suspect that the statistics regarding high school graduates vs. college educated persons post 1995 are compelling.

 

What I *do* challenge is the necessity of name colleges, especially for most job roles. OTOH, the fact that statistically most people don't "use" their college degrees isn't a valid reason against a college education for me. I think it's rather a function of having to choose a major at such a young, immature, age. But the value of that education and the process of getting there remains high IMO.

 

I expect my children to pursue college just like I expected them to learn math, to read and write, to manage a house, shop and make meals.

 

They can choose to be alternative in their adulthood. My job until then is to prepare them fully for the culture in which they live.

Edited July 9, 2012 by Joanne

[Catwoman]

We are a blue collar family, a self-educated one with reasonably intelligent parents and children. One of our goals for homeschooling was to intentionally get off the college bandwagon. You know what I mean, and for many this is entirely wrong (I realize that), but we didn't want our kids losing their teen years to what we feel is needless fretting over SAT's, extracurricular activities maxed out, ridiculous AP classes, etc. We also are really looking at the huge shift our country is undergoing and realizing that the old way of ensuring "success" may indeed not work so well anymore.

 

I think it is entirely possible to prepare your dc for college, complete with SATs and AP exams, without the kids "losing their teen years." As homeschoolers, we can make sure our kids are well-qualified to gain entrance to good colleges, while still ensuring that they aren't overly stressed in the process.

 

A couple of days ago, our 6th grade children were asked if they were going to college and where they wanted to go. 6th grade...really? My kids responded that they were not sure they were going to college, that they did not want to go needlessly into debt unless they were certain what they wanted to do...and that too many college graduates were in the unemployment line and so they might look in other directions like self-employment, or trades of some sort. The woman asking them looked at them as if they were nuts, and told them they needed to seriously rethink that, implying college was the only way to go.

 

Honestly, I wouldn't have looked at them like they were nuts, but I would have thought their response seemed awfully well-rehearsed, and would have walked away from the conversation believing that those kids had been very well-indoctrinated into those particular ideas. Most 6th graders aren't thinking about whether or not they're willing to go into debt for college, nor are they even remotely concerned that there are college graduates in the unemployment lines. That said, I think the woman was incredibly rude and I'm glad your kids put her in her place. I can never understand why anyone believes it's ok to say things like that -- it's not even like she was your dc's grandmother or something!

 

Personally, I don't think there's anything wrong with a kid not going to college. Not every kid is college material, and even some exceptionally bright kids don't belong there, because their interests lie elsewhere. However, I think it's important to prepare them for the possibility if they are academically capable, because let's face it, a non-academic 6th grader can change a lot between now and when he or she turns 18, and I'd much prefer to have an over-educated non-college-student than an incredibly disappointed college hopeful who can't get accepted to a decent school because his credentials aren't good enough.

 

Cindy, I think we agree to some extent, but in our case, my dh and I are assuming that our ds will attend college and grad school and that we will be paying for all of it, without regard to ROI. If he wants to go, he can go. We have never discussed the possibility of not going to college -- he just assumes it's what you do after you finish high school, and that's the story we're sticking to! :D

[CyndiLJ]

"Honestly, I wouldn't have looked at them like they were nuts, but I would have thought their response seemed awfully well-rehearsed, and would have walked away from the conversation believing that those kids had been very well-indoctrinated into those particular ideas. Most 6th graders aren't thinking about whether or not they're willing to go into debt for college, nor are they even remotely concerned that there are college graduates in the unemployment lines. That said, I think the woman was incredibly rude and I'm glad your kids put her in her place. I can never understand why anyone believes it's ok to say things like that -- it's not even like she was your dc's grandmother or something!"

 

Cat, what you and others may not realize (which would be quite understandable), is that in our unique situation due to adoption at older ages, our "sixth graders" are indeed 14 years old (I haven't changed my data on my sig line). At 14, we are talking budgeting and financing for cars, college and all sorts of other things that might not seem normal or standard for a typical sixth grader.

 

And, I guess seen from the other side of the fence, couldn't a case also be made for indoctrination for the kids who automatically responds that they are going to college? i mean, we can all call teaching our children what we believe or are learning ourselves (and seeing DAILY in most mainstream magazines right now) indoctrination, but how does that differ from any other form of teaching or indoctrination that any other family might be doing...with a differing opinion?

 

Words carry great meaning and a word like indoctrination flung about can certainly go both ways. However I don't see a parent expressing their concerns over a changing cultural shift OR that they believe college is important to be indoctrination. I tend to see it as the parent's job, actually, regardless of whether or not I might personally agree with a perspective or not.

 

And I still am TOTALLY not getting how my comments continue to be construed as "not preparing for college" when repeatedly I have said exactly that we ARE still preparing for college. Guess people prefer to see things they want to see rather than read entire threads. I don't know how much clearer I ever could have made that, even if I do question what we view as the traditional norm these days. I feel we can question that wisdom long held, while still preparing for being unable to buck a system that at times truly seems to make no sense and you know you have to play the game somewhat.

 

I think I'll go crawl back in my cave...:lol:

Cindy

[Deb in NZ]

We are a blue collar family, a self-educated one with reasonably intelligent parents and children. One of our goals for homeschooling was to intentionally get off the college bandwagon. You know what I mean, and for many this is entirely wrong (I realize that), but we didn't want our kids losing their teen years to what we feel is needless fretting over SAT's, extracurricular activities maxed out, ridiculous AP classes, etc. We also are really looking at the huge shift our country is undergoing and realizing that the old way of ensuring "success" may indeed not work so well anymore.

 

We are not against college, if one of our kids has a goal that requires it, and we are absolutely going to guide toward post high school training of some sort, be it trade/technical, military, or other options out there. However, we decided long ago that our system works backwards, that we push for college and then try and figure out careers rather than trying to establish what career is desired then working toward the necessary education for that career. College for the sake of college is great for some folks, but for those who are unwilling to go into debt for personal exploration, it is not a good idea.

 

A couple of days ago, our 6th grade children were asked if they were going to college and where they wanted to go. 6th grade...really? My kids responded that they were not sure they were going to college, that they did not want to go needlessly into debt unless they were certain what they wanted to do...and that too many college graduates were in the unemployment line and so they might look in other directions like self-employment, or trades of some sort. The woman asking them looked at them as if they were nuts, and told them they needed to seriously rethink that, implying college was the only way to go.

 

I heard about this after the fact, and was dismayed. We have warned our kids that as they grow older they are going to be faced with this question, and that others will think it is irresponsible of us, as their parents, to not insist they go to college. While I totally respect those that feel strongly about college for their kids, I think we are all going to see a radical paradigm shift in what higher ed looks like in the coming years. We also want our kids to understand on a very deep level that college and Big Careers simply do not equate to happiness, that happiness comes from a variety of sources, many of which have nothing to do with a college degree.

 

Again, not negating college, but trying to place it in a more appropriate place rather than high up on the mantle. It CAN mean happiness if you are pursuing the career of your dreams, and we'd support that all the way!

 

So I am wondering how others feel about this, about what an appropriate response should be to those who vehemently try to persuade our kids that there is only "one way". We are an out of the box sort of family, entrepreneurial in nature, and because 3 of our children came home as older adopted kids we simply do not need to place the sort of pressure on them that the traditional route causes. We feel there is always community college to fill in gaps or begin to explore college, no need for SAT's there nor all that pressure about "getting in", and we'd much prefer that.

 

So Hive, am I all screwed up? If so, slap me up side the head! Or are there others out there who are seeing things change, questioning the traditional model, or flat out refusing to buy into the norm when there are other ways to achieve the same goal (CLEP tests, etc.). I need to hear from you!

 

Cindy

 

Our goals for our dc are very similar to yours & we have "graduated" two dc already from our HS. College for College's sake alone isn't a recipe for success later in life IMHO. I have a degree (Education / English & History), but dh left school at 16yo to complete a 5 year carpentry apprenticeship. Dh has worked in his field both in NZ & overseas for 40+ years. He has been able to provide for our family for 20 years, allowing me to stay at home & HS our dc. Even when he was laid off, he was able to pick up little jobs quite easily. I, on the other hand, have had lots of trouble picking up full-time work. Even finding relief teaching jobs (subbing) took over 6 months of effort.

 

We are insistant that our dc get tertiary qualifications, but what type of qualifications depend on what their career goals are. Dd has gone to uni to earn a degree as she plans to work overseas & a degree will open more options for her. She chose to do her first 2 years at polytech as the program offered practical, hands-on qualifications as well as academic learning. This year, her final year, is at university allowing her to study more in-depth areas that she covered hands-on in years 1 & 2 at polytech. Ds#1 began a 4 year engineering apprenticeship in April. When finished he will have his engineering qualifications, 4 years experience, & money in the bank instead of a huge student loan. Ds#2 plans to follow his brother's path, but in diesel mechanics.

 

Follow your own path that you see best for your family. Don't let other's pressure you into any direction that doesn't meet your goals.

 

Blessings,

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

I think 'keeping your options open' means that you prepare for college. If a child doesn't wish to go, fine. But, to not take the necessary steps to ensure admission if college is desired isn't keeping options open.

 

I see college as keeping options open. Very often people cannot advance or change jobs because they don't have more than a semester or two at a community college. Now that they are in their 40s, they are very vulnerable and have few choices. They want to advance in their jobs but are passed over for younger people with more education. One friend's husband was told people don't like working under someone with less education than they have. His wife, who does have a college degree, was able to find a better paying job than him in a matter of weeks. She had been out of the job market for over 10 years.

 

I should also say that I live in the NE, and it is highly unlikely you are going to have a white collar job without a degree of some kind. I worked for a not-for profit human service agency and the only person in the office without a 4 year degree was the administrative assistant, and that wasn't a job that would support a family.

 

My husband was able to go back to school 10 years ago and get a Master's. It opened up a whole different life for us. We own a home. He is earning more than twice what the two of us earned combined before he had that degree. I'd say that was an excellent investment. If he didn't have that degree I would not be homeschooling. It would have been really difficult if he hadn't already had that 4 year degree to begin with.

 

:iagree: IMHO it seems like the OP has already closed off to the idea of college which I would not be so quick to do. I totally agree that college is not the be all and end all but often not having a degree closes many doors. I think trade school is a viable option as well. I think it is better to leave the college door open by giving the high school courses and prep necessary which would also prepare a student for trade school. I have a degree and I am a nurse. It served me well.

[marbel]

:iagree: IMHO it seems like the OP has already closed off to the idea of college which I would not be so quick to do. I totally agree that college is not the be all and end all but often not having a degree closes many doors. I think trade school is a viable option as well. I think it is better to leave the college door open by giving the high school courses and prep necessary which would also prepare a student for trade school. I have a degree and I am a nurse. It served me well.

 

Cindy (the OP) has repeatedly said that she is not "closed off" to the idea of college. She is leaving the door open!

[bkpan]

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, then.

 

My degree is in English.

 

My daughter has a degree in theatre with a minor in music.

 

See, I really do put my money where my mouth is.

 

But, no, I absolutely do not consider it my primary goal to raise adults who can support themselves "hopefully" not hating their jobs. I consider it my goal to raise thoughtful, compassionate, well-educated adults who find a way to support themselves while also hopefully making the world a better place.

 

Honestly, money is the least of my concerns.

 

So, I think the education one gets in college IS the return on investment.

 

Is college the only way to get an education? No. But it is the primary gateway to the kind of education I value. And it is also the admission ticket to the kinds of jobs and, more importantly, social groups in which my kids will be happiest.

 

From a purely personal perspective: I got what many people perceive as a "useless" degree, and I've never regretted it one tiny bit for one single day of my life. My only regrets are not getting more education and/or attending a more challenging school.

 

Meanwhile, my husband did not go to college and has regretted it his entire adult life.

 

If my kids chose not to go to college, I'll respect that decision. However, I never, ever want to risk looking either of them in the eye when they hit 40 and having them tell me they resent me not making education a priority.

 

:iagree: You shared my sentiments exactly. I am the product of two educators, one a liberal arts college professor, who managed to instill in me a love of new ideas. I SO want that for my children. My father was a Don Quixote who often lived the idea that madness comes from seeing life as it is and not as it should be, lol!

 

Romantic, maybe. But I managed to get through college and graduate school taking lots of liberal arts classes and following my passions (honestly gave almost no thought to what my future income might be). I did not make big bucks when I got my MA, but I loved my work and was happy!

 

(Now I did marry mr. practical engineer, so maybe I was saved, lol?)

 

Anyway, I hope that my kids will go to college. They don't have to, but I want them to go for the EXPERIENCE. I loved college, I loved being around people who cared about ideas, and all of those BOOKS!! We don't want them going into ridiculous debt to do it, but I do think it is worth a lot of sweat and sacrifice. JMHO

 

Kim

Edited July 11, 2012 by bkpan
typos

[Jenny in Florida]

Anyway, I hope that my kids will go to college. They don't have to, but I want them to go for the EXPERIENCE. I loved college, I loved being around people who cared about ideas, and all of those BOOKS!! We don't want them going into ridiculous debt to do it, but I do think it is worth a lot of sweat and sacrifice. JMHO

 

I saw this on Facebook today and thought of this discussion:

 

 

(I have no idea who Chris Hedges is or if I would agree with him about any other subject. But I do like this quote.)