Having 'cold feet' with our math pick for prealgebra - Saxon vs ???

[KellyMama]

We were all set to go into Saxon 8/7 (with the teaching CD-Roms) for DD 12 in the fall. She finished up 7/6 with scores I would call "successful" - as in, A's and B's for all her tests. Then, a friend mentioned how her DD was making C's and D's on her "mixed practice" problems, so she knew they needed to do more review, and they (gulp) started their math text over halfway through the school year!!!

 

:confused: Eeek!

 

I never looked at or "graded" her mixed practice like that?!! I just graded the problems and then made her correct her mistakes . . . until they were correct. If that meant we had to go back and review a process or a concept, then we did. Sometimes we had the same issue come up in different mixed practice sets over a period of time - this showed me we needed some additional review in those areas, but I never considered this as a failing letter grade!

 

Now I'm questioning if Saxon is really the best fit for us? She (and I) honestly came to dread math every day - although we both tried to keep a positive attitude and just "get it done". Even though she seemed to do "well" with it, I wonder how well she actually knows the material or if 8/7 will be even worse than 7/6 was at the end! She was always so excited on test days, because math would be completed in under an hour. Most days, her mixed practice would take over an hour including multiple corrections. I know "liking" math is definitely NOT a requirement, but I've started wondering if she wouldn't enjoy/prefer something like CLE 700 or Horizons Prealgebra for a change of pace? I read too much (aka too many opinions) and have succeeded in totally confusing myself on what is best for her now.

 

Also, I'm petrified to get off the Saxon trajectory for fear she will "miss something." I know it's the universal homeschooling fear - and I'm so new to this gig, I'm probably blowing that idea way out of proportion - but it's a strong motivator to stick with Saxon (aka tried and true!). *sigh*

 

At this stage, DD shows no interest in pursuing math for a career choice - she is interested in drama, writing, theater etc. However, I want to be sure she is well-prepared for upper level math in case she A. changes her mind/field of interest or B. Needs good test scores to get into a college of her choosing.

 

Does anyone have any opinions on how Horizons Pre-algebra or CLE Math 700 series would stack up against Saxon . . . or if "not liking it" constitutes a real reason to change things up . . . or how to tell if she actually "needs" to switch because making so many corrections means she isn't really getting Saxon? :bigear:

[Brenda in FL]

You're daughter sounds like my kids! I would not worry about the approach your friend is taking. I treat the mixed practice like you and my kids get similar test scores. They take forever doing the mixed practice set, but most of that is their own fault! And most of the corrections that need to be done, they can actually do them when I am sitting there making them do it! They could get it done in less than hour and a half - they choose to prolong it. (I'm beginning to think it's a character issue with my kids - not a math curriculum issue!)

 

Saxon is not a fun and easy curriculum, but seasoned educators here will tell you that it works! I'm sticking with it, and my kids are going to have to deal with it!! Their test scores show that it works.

[TCoppock]

From what you have said your daughter seems to be doing well with Saxon. Practice problems and mixed practice are for the introduction and reinforcement of concepts. Time is needed to practice and concrete these. I would definitely place more weight on the tests because they show retention. (If additional practice is needed there are problems in the back of the student text to help.)

 

We quit Saxon halfway through 5/4 and moved to Rod and Staff because it was clearly not working for my son at the time. He was getting D-F with no retention even after we went over everything. Clearly this is not your daughters case.

 

We are back in Saxon and its working ok so far, but I'm not so sure it will be a permanent home for him. I wouldn't be fearful of switching if needed, but I wouldn't switch if things are going well. I'm sure there a small gaps due to switching, but I haven't noticed anything major.

[RootAnn]

I'm not a fan of Saxon, but it sounds like it is going like typical math for a non-mathy kid. I wouldn't switch. You are going to run into CLE/Horizons running out of math levels for you & you'll have to switch (back?) at that point.

 

Not everyone thinks math is fun. (I do, but my kids don't.)

[thowell]

I spoke with Art Reed recently and his advice to me was very similar to how you are doing things. He says to not even worry about grading the daily work only making sure that it was complete (not sure I would go that far), and to concentrate on the grades on the test. He said if dd11 received 80% or better on the test as an average that after 7/6 to proceed to Algebra 1/2. I asked him about 8/7 and he said only if a child completes 7/6 with an average test score of 70% or lower would they need to work through 8/7. He also said that most people who find their child taking over and hour or so on daily work will find either the child is wasting time (not really spending that whole time working) or the child is in the wrong level. We have not made our choice for Pre-Algebra yet either, I have looked a Saxon a hundred times but I guess I am just a little worried it will be one more unsuccessful program. My leading choice right now is Kinetic. Keep us posted what you decide and how it goes!

[KellyMama]

I spoke with Art Reed recently and his advice to me was very similar to how you are doing things. He says to not even worry about grading the daily work only making sure that it was complete (not sure I would go that far), and to concentrate on the grades on the test. He said if dd11 received 80% or better on the test as an average that after 7/6 to proceed to Algebra 1/2. I asked him about 8/7 and he said only if a child completes 7/6 with an average test score of 70% or lower would they need to work through 8/7. He also said that most people who find their child taking over and hour or so on daily work will find either the child is wasting time (not really spending that whole time working) or the child is in the wrong level. We have not made our choice for Pre-Algebra yet either, I have looked a Saxon a hundred times but I guess I am just a little worried it will be one more unsuccessful program. My leading choice right now is Kinetic. Keep us posted what you decide and how it goes!

 

Uh oh, Algebra 1/2, really? *sigh* I just thought I had a handle on how it was supposed to progress - I thought the "new" way was to do 8/7 and only do 1/2 if the student was needing extra time or practice before progressing to Algebra 1?

 

I would certainly agree on the time-frame. I know there are days she can whizz through it - and then we spend more time on the corrections - but there are days it takes eternity. I am encouraged to know that focusing on her test scores is the way to go.

[JudoMom]

Uh oh, Algebra 1/2, really? *sigh* I just thought I had a handle on how it was supposed to progress - I thought the "new" way was to do 8/7 and only do 1/2 if the student was needing extra time or practice before progressing to Algebra 1?

 

I would certainly agree on the time-frame. I know there are days she can whizz through it - and then we spend more time on the corrections - but there are days it takes eternity. I am encouraged to know that focusing on her test scores is the way to go.

 

8/7 is the right choice with the new texts.

 

My boys have been doing Saxon from the beginning--my oldest is in Algebra 1. It takes 45 minutes-1.5 hours for a lesson. I never grade their daily work, just the tests. They check their daily work and rework mixed problems.

[KellyMama]

8/7 is the right choice with the new texts.

 

My boys have been doing Saxon from the beginning--my oldest is in Algebra 1. It takes 45 minutes-1.5 hours for a lesson. I never grade their daily work, just the tests. They check their daily work and rework mixed problems.

 

OK, thanks! A question though - if they grade their own mixed practice, how do you determine if they really understood the problems? I know once my DD saw the answer she would be able to work it backwards, but I guess it wouldn't be until the test that I could see if she really didn't know how to do it. I wonder for her, if that's enough or if that would leave too much water under the bridge between corrections? Hmmm - definitely things for me to ponder . . . that would certainly create a *much* happier math session for both of us! ;)

[mjbucks1]

I agree with Art Reed. The Algebra 1/2 is the stronger book (when choosing between Saxon 8/7 and Algebra 1/2). The Algebra 1/2 book has similar material, but the problems are more complex. My ds went from 7/6 to Algebra 1/2 and has done very well (he is in Advanced Mathematics now). My dd went from 7/6 to 8/7 because I really felt she would benefit from doing both 8/7 and Algebra 1/2 (we are just starting Algebra 1/2). Dd is just finishing 6th grade, so we also have plenty of time to lay a firm math foundation. With both of my kids, I made my decision based on how well they did on the tests only. My cut-off is 90% (rather than 80%). I grade all work, and then the kids correct their work and I re-check it.

[Girl Power]

I agree with Art Reed. The Algebra 1/2 is the stronger book (when choosing between Saxon 8/7 and Algebra 1/2). The Algebra 1/2 book has similar material, but the problems are more complex. My ds went from 7/6 to Algebra 1/2 and has done very well (he is in Advanced Mathematics now). My dd went from 7/6 to 8/7 because I really felt she would benefit from doing both 8/7 and Algebra 1/2 (we are just starting Algebra 1/2). Dd is just finishing 6th grade, so we also have plenty of time to lay a firm math foundation. With both of my kids, I made my decision based on how well they did on the tests only. My cut-off is 90% (rather than 80%). I grade all work, and then the kids correct their work and I re-check it.

 

:iagree: this is the sequence we followed

 

B

[KellyMama]

I agree with Art Reed. The Algebra 1/2 is the stronger book (when choosing between Saxon 8/7 and Algebra 1/2). The Algebra 1/2 book has similar material, but the problems are more complex. My ds went from 7/6 to Algebra 1/2 and has done very well (he is in Advanced Mathematics now). My dd went from 7/6 to 8/7 because I really felt she would benefit from doing both 8/7 and Algebra 1/2 (we are just starting Algebra 1/2). Dd is just finishing 6th grade, so we also have plenty of time to lay a firm math foundation. With both of my kids, I made my decision based on how well they did on the tests only. My cut-off is 90% (rather than 80%). I grade all work, and then the kids correct their work and I re-check it.

 

So do you recommend doing both 8/7 and then 1/2 before heading to Algebra1? Does 'stronger' in this context = more difficult, or is it somehow 'better'? If this is the case, why do so many say the new order is 7/6 followed by 8/7? The whole thing is pretty confusing! I have 8/7 on the shelf, but I could follow it with 1/2 if necessary since we're only starting 7th in the fall.

[JudoMom]

So do you recommend doing both 8/7 and then 1/2 before heading to Algebra1? Does 'stronger' in this context = more difficult, or is it somehow 'better'? If this is the case, why do so many say the new order is 7/6 followed by 8/7? The whole thing is pretty confusing! I have 8/7 on the shelf, but I could follow it with 1/2 if necessary since we're only starting 7th in the fall.

 

8/7 and 1/2 will prepare for Algebra 1. My oldest went from 8/7 to Algebra and he's doing just fine.

 

I had the same debate with myself that you're having. I went with 8/7 in case I felt my son needed another year before Algebra (he did 8/7 in 6th grade). I knew I could give him the Algebra 1/2 book after 8/7 without him thinking he was redoing prealgebra, but if I tried to give him the 8/7 book after the 1/2 book, he would balk.

 

Since tests are every 5 lessons in Saxon, it's pretty easy to see what they don't understand. It's worked for us so far, at least :001_smile:.

[curlylocks]

So do you recommend doing both 8/7 and then 1/2 before heading to Algebra1?

 

My understanding from talking to Art Reed is that you do one or the other -- not both.

[mrs.m]

So do you recommend doing both 8/7 and then 1/2 before heading to Algebra1? Does 'stronger' in this context = more difficult, or is it somehow 'better'? If this is the case, why do so many say the new order is 7/6 followed by 8/7? The whole thing is pretty confusing! I have 8/7 on the shelf, but I could follow it with 1/2 if necessary since we're only starting 7th in the fall.

 

Saxon states somewhere on their website that 8/7 to Algebra 1 is the proper sequence but they changed it all around and now I can't find it... :confused: They used to suggest both until the recent editions which I think has added to the confusion.

 

I have a friend who has daughters a couple years apart. She taught both 8/7 and 1/2 in the same year and said they are pretty much the same thing. But she felt the 1/2 looked more like an upper level book, so it was great for her older daughter to feel ahead of her sister.

[mjbucks1]

So do you recommend doing both 8/7 and then 1/2 before heading to Algebra1? Does 'stronger' in this context = more difficult, or is it somehow 'better'? If this is the case, why do so many say the new order is 7/6 followed by 8/7? The whole thing is pretty confusing! I have 8/7 on the shelf, but I could follow it with 1/2 if necessary since we're only starting 7th in the fall.

 

You know your child the best of anyone :). I had my ds skip 8/7 and just go straight to Algebra 1/2 because he was doing quite well in math, and his standardized test score was in the 99th percentile. He is also a math/science guy, so math is pretty straight forward for him. While my dd is very intuitive with math, I really felt she needed more time in "pre-algebra", so that is why I chose to use both books. If I knew I was only going to use one pre-algebra book, I would choose Saxon Algebra 1/2. The problems are more sophisticated. I guess you could call them harder if you wanted to :D. Also, the presentation goes at a quicker pace in Algebra 1/2. More concepts are presented in each lesson. They just add another level of thinking, if that makes sense.

If you average your daughter's tests from 7/6 and they are in the 90's, I would probably move to Algebra 1/2. I would take a look at the Algebra 1/2 book online and see what you think.

 

 

why do so many say the new order is 7/6 followed by 8/7? The whole thing is pretty confusing!

 

I think the publisher is pushing the Saxon 8/7 book, but Algebra 1/2 is the original. I am no math expert by any means, just one who has used Saxon for a long time!

 

Blessings,

Michelle

[mrs.m]

I found it:

 

What do you recommend for students after they have completed Math 7/6?

The recommended path after finishing Math 7/6 is to take Math 8/7. If your child finishes Math 8/7 with at least 80% mastery, skip ahead to Algebra 1. In previous editions, many people skipped Math 8/7 because they found it to be a weaker text than Algebra ½. In newer editions, pre-algebra content has been added to Math 8/7, making it a much stronger program

 

http://saxonhomeschool.hmhco.com/en/homeschool_faq.htm#recommend

[HollyDay]

Uh oh, Algebra 1/2, really? *sigh* I just thought I had a handle on how it was supposed to progress - I thought the "new" way was to do 8/7 and only do 1/2 if the student was needing extra time or practice before progressing to Algebra 1?

 

I would certainly agree on the time-frame. I know there are days she can whizz through it - and then we spend more time on the corrections - but there are days it takes eternity. I am encouraged to know that focusing on her test scores is the way to go.

 

We did 87 this year (7th) and will use 1/2 next year (8th). Dd did wonderfully with 76. She finished the year with 90%. She zoomed through 87 until about the last third of the text. Initially, she was making 100% on each test. Then, it got difficult. We decided to do 1/2 next year based on the those last few tests.

[KarenNC]

As others have said, I spoke with Mr. Reed and he recommended not grading the practice sets. I know that I was grading them, stressing over it and it wasn't productive. I have changed, but not to the extent of just checking for completeness (as he suggested). We go over each assignment and I have her correct errors but no grade. It's night and day difference in our stress level. As he pointed out, they are practice and testing short term understanding while the tests look at longer term memory. One key point he mentioned was to grade very strictly on tests---either the question is all correct or count it wrong---no partial credit if the child drops units, or doesn't simplify or makes a calculation error, etc. We're on lesson 134 in 7/6 and it looks like we are going into Alg 1/2 as her test scores are 85 and above.

 

Here's the article from his newsletter on the sequence after 7/6 http://www.homeschoolwithsaxon.com/newsletterpage-2012.php#0412. He addresses editions to use, tracks for students at different ability levels, etc.

Edited May 25, 2012 by KarenNC