Logic of English & the Y sound

[allymom]

I've been reading through WRTR and really like it. I think it will be a good program for us, but I'm curious how LOE teaches the Y sound compared to WRTR and if it would be easier to understand.

[Hunter]

I was all wigged out by the Y in WRTR until I REALLY listed to how I say it. It's is MORE like an E than an I, but, not all the way there. We have just been TAUGHT that Y says E. I have plenty of dictionaries that say Y says I. Not that long ago the average person said the Y more like an I.

 

My accent has changed repeatedly over my life as I have hopped from country to country and culture to culture. I just need a CONSISTENT model, not a "right" one. "Think to spell" is fine by me.

 

I do think that LOE uses E for Y, but am not sure.

[atozmom]

Are you talking about all the sounds that Y makes? LOE (like AAS) has 4 sounds for Y. y (yard), short i (gym), long i (by), long e (baby).

 

I have never read WRTR so I am not sure if this is what you were talking about or not. If not, disregard this and consider it a bump. :lol:

[Hunter]

Are you talking about all the sounds that Y makes? LOE (like AAS) has 4 sounds for Y. y (yard), short i (gym), long i (by), long e (baby).

 

I have never read WRTR so I am not sure if this is what you were talking about or not. If not, disregard this and consider it a bump. :lol:

 

WRTR does just the first 3 sounds. Together we can answer this question :-)

[allymom]

Are you talking about all the sounds that Y makes? LOE (like AAS) has 4 sounds for Y. y (yard), short i (gym), long i (by), long e (baby).

 

I have never read WRTR so I am not sure if this is what you were talking about or not. If not, disregard this and consider it a bump. :lol:

 

Yes, that's what I was talking about. Since WRTR just teaches the first 3 sounds. I'm completely not opposed to teaching "think to spell" and the babi sound, but I was curious if it was easier for our modern minds/accents to handle the LOE/AAS approach or if in the end, it's easier to "think to spell" and just use the first 3 sounds of Y. I understand the history of it, and quite honestly, many people in the south, with their "strong" accents speak quite close to the more accurate Y sound. At least my husband I think so as we've been playing around with that sound as we read through it.

[RootAnn]

We use SWR & it, like Spalding (WRTR), teaches the three sounds. I was just talking about this today with two other homeschool moms -- one of which is using AAS. They were both confused by how SWR teaches y says /i/ - as in baby (babi).

 

I said my kids, so far, haven't been confused by this 'think to spell' because they know how to say it (as one of my kids has a name that ends in 'y') or how to spell it for those words since "English words don't end in I" -- thus using the Y as a stand in.

 

I think AAS & LOE are taking the 'easy to explain' way. It is easier for us adults to swallow 'y says /E/' than the y in baby says /i/. :lol:

[Tracy]

Omitting the sound of /E/ for Y actually makes the word easier to spell. When the student hears /E/, as in "baby," he does not now which of the numerous ways /E/ can be spelled he should use. Should he spell it baby, babei, babee, or babea? But if you think /i/, you know it has to be a Y because the only option for that sound either end in an I or a Y, and since English words do not end in I, it must be Y.

[Hunter]

With my constantly changing accent, and lots of ESL and LD students, I know the old fashioned consistent pronunciation that the spelling rules are based on, is the best way to go.

 

Over and over again, I have wanted Spalding to do what is familiar, only to find out that the familiar is whacked.

[calebandbrooke]

LOE does have 4 sounds for y. When we did SWR I added the fourth sound when I taught it to my kids. I understand the reasoning of why they don't use the E sound, but it just seems so much less complicated to teach them that Y sometimes says E.

 

The reasoning that it is easier to just think to spell babi, so then you know it has to be a y because English words don't end in i, doesn't seem easier to me. I'd rather have as few "think to spell" words as possible. When they hear a new word I am not always going to be there to tell them to "think to spell" it in a certain way. There are a LOT of words that end in the E sound spelled with a Y.

[Ellie]

With all of our regional pronunciations, it isn't surprising that many of us do not say the third sound of y the way that Spalding and other methods teach it. But that is the point of a spelling system: a standard for spelling, so that all words are spelled the same regardless of how they might be pronounced in different regions.

 

This is from the FAQ page at the Spalding site:

 

 

Q. Why are baby and other words pronounced with the first (short) sound of i when most people say the second (long) sound of e?

A. The Spalding Method teaches children to analyze the written spelling of words. Spelling has remained relatively constant over the years while pronunciations vary among geographical regions and countries. In the English spelling system y and i are used interchangeably, but y and e are not. For example, in the words gym, rhythm, system, we use y to represent the first sound of i.

When teaching children to spell, pronouncing the word ba by (short i), helps them to write y, not e. Note that the accent is on the first syllable. When reading the word for speaking, you have a choice: have children pronounce the word as spoken in your region or maintain the original pronunciation which is consistent with the spelling. Children have no problem with the difference. They understand that pronouncing words two ways helps them spell and read.

[Hunter]

Since my students come from all over the world and various degrees of neglect, I hear some very unusual accents. A common problem her is saying "i" instead of "e". They say pin instead of pen. The "i" sound for baby is actually less of an explanation that pin and pen.

 

And 3 sounds is less than 4, so...

 

I know this might be very different for a mom and kids that never intend to leave their region, but here in the city...there is no standard never mind "right" pronunciation.

 

For SPELLING I use Spalding. For a SPEAKING pronunciation standard, I use Merriam Webster Concise Dictionary LARGE PRINT. We discuss the differences. Me and mine need standards, just any standards :-0 I picked the standards that ALL-IN-ALL would be best for my students, and then I run with THAT the best I can.

[Paige]

I understand the reasoning for teaching kids that y has 3 sounds for spelling words when they have been given the words to spell. I'm picturing a teacher showing the word happy, saying, "we say it like 'happi' for spelling", and then the students remember that when they go on to spell those words. I don't understand how those same children are expected to figure out how to spell words they have never seen that end in y and make the e sound. How would they know to pronounce it in their heads for spelling if they don't already know that it ends in y? Most likely, they will go through life hearing the words with an e sound, so how are they to know what to do any better than kids who are taught y sometimes says e? I'm genuinely curious if there is some rule that makes this not a problem. If there is a rule that makes this not a problem, why wouldn't the same rule also be used for kids who learn in programs that give y the fourth (long e) sound?

 

My bias is that y clearly says e and the short i sound is really reaching for most of those words. Discover-i? happil-i? Stor-i? It seems more confusing to me.

Edited March 27, 2012 by Paige

[Hunter]

We say shwa for MANY syllables, but don't feel the need to seriously accommodate for that in spelling lessons.

 

We were taught that Y says E. Children used to be taught that Y says I. In actuality our speech, did and does, lie somewhere in the middle. Really listen and forget your programming. Well...at least for me and my students, none of us are saying a true E for Y.

 

And the advanced rules and phonograms deal with I and Y being pretty much the same letter. I've understood better the further I study English and WRTR.

 

I was so confused at the beginning about how to mix a dictionary and ANY of the intensive phonics programs. Learning to read a dictionary pronunciation chart is a VERY important skill in my education philosophy. I didn't easily or lightly convert to the I. Now though...I'm a complete convert, and have no problem with it.

[Ellie]

I understand the reasoning for teaching kids that y has 3 sounds for spelling words when they have been given the words to spell. I'm picturing a teacher showing the word happy, saying, "we say it like 'happi' for spelling, and then the students remember that when they go on to spell those words. I don't understand how those same children are expected to figure out how to spell words they have never seen that end in y and make the e sound. How would they know to pronounce it in their heads for spelling if they don't already know that it ends in y? Most likely, they will go through life hearing the words with an e sound, so how are they to know what to do any better than kids who are taught y sometimes says e? I'm genuinely curious if there is some rule that makes this not a problem. If there is a rule that makes this not a problem, why wouldn't the same rule also be used for kids who learn in programs that give y the fourth (long e) sound?

 

My bias is that y clearly says e and the short i sound is really reaching for most of those words. Discover-i? happil-i? Stor-i? It seems more confusing to me.

They will tend to spell it with y. Really. Partly because yes, there is a rule that English words do not end with i.

 

This is not as big a problem as you think it is. :)

[boscopup]

Should he spell it baby, babei, babee, or babea? But if you think /i/, you know it has to be a Y because the only option for that sound either end in an I or a Y, and since English words do not end in I, it must be Y.

 

How many multisyllable words end in an /E/ sound that isn't spelled with a 'y'? I'm thinking there were like 1 or 2? If so, it's easier for ME to just remember that if you hear /E/ at the end of a multisyllable word, it's probably a 'y', rather than having to think to spell ALL the words that end in 'y'.

 

And in the middle of a multisyllable word, I naturally think of 'i' when there is an /E/ sound, as in ra-di-o. It's the most common spelling for that sound in the middle of a word, right? So it seems to me that it would be easier to remember the oddball words that have an /E/ spelled some way other than 'i' (in the middle of a multisyllable word) or 'y' (at the end of a multisyllable word).

 

I've always used think-to-spell as my natural spelling technique, but adding in that huge amount of words to think-to-spell would not make it easier for me.

[Paige]

Really listen and forget your programming. Well...at least for me and my students, none of us are saying a true E for Y.

 

It must be regional. We all say a nice long "ee" sound here in the south and the parts of the mid-atlantic that I've lived in. Happy, recovery, broccoli, toffee, monkey, Chelsea...they all end in the same sound to me.

[houseofkids&pets]

:iagree:I am in upstate N.Y. and also pronounce it with the long "ee".