two years for AP and high school physics?

[Joan in GE]

To those who have travelled the science path...

 

I am wondering if my son should do a high school physics course in 11th grade before he does the AP physics course in 12th grade?

 

To get into university here in Switzerland, he has to have done 5 AP courses and since he is scientifically inclined, the physics should be one of them...

 

Thank you!

[Gwen in VA]

Well, I think the answer may involve what level of math he is at.

 

Physics B, the non-calculus-based physics exam, is not that much harder than a rigorous honors-level physics class. (In other words, Conceptual Physics won't do as a textbook!)

 

There are two physics C (calculus-based) AP exams, and they are quite rigorous. One is mechanics, the other is electricity and meganetism I think, though you should double-check that.

 

If your son won't be taking calculus until his senior year, he should take AP Physics B. Honoestly, he probably doesn't need to take a "regular' year of physics before he does AP physics B. It is only a baby-step harder than an honors-level high school physics class. My kids have both taken AP Physics B with no prior physics classes. One received a 5 on the exam; the other is waiting for his score but he thinks he did well.

 

However, if your son will have completely calculus before the end of his junior year and he wants to do either of the AP Physics C exams, he should have done some physics beforehand. They are VERY rigorous classes.

 

The AP physics B exam usually won't get you much credit and is much easier exam than the Physics C ones. If your son is accelerated in math and strong in science, I would recommend going for the AP Physics C exams.

 

I just wrote a book, didn't I? I hope this is helpful!

[Joan in GE]

Thank you Gwen - I can see I have more homework to do...It is very useful to know how the math fits in...Since my son is entering 9th, I'm figuring out what he needs in 12th and working backwards...

 

If yours did calculus in 11th grade, did they do the AP calc in 11th grade also? or do another year of prep in 12th grade?

 

Mine just finished Algebra I in 8th gr and so I'm trying to figure out the math too, since I've read that Saxon geometry (included in the other books) is weaker than whole programs...could I ask your conclusions on the math path? and then whatever happened to trig? I occasionally see it appear. Has it taken a back seat to Calculus?

 

Thanks,

Joan

[Jane in NC]

Trig is essential to physics.

 

Traditionally students are introduced to the basics of trig as triangular relationships in geometry. Some Algebra II books will cover trig; other curricula include this material in precalculus. Some curricula have a separate trig text, but that book is usually a duplicate of material in one of their other texts.

 

A Calculus course based on polynomials without trigonometric or other transcendental functions (like logs or hyperbolics) is relatively useless.

 

Physics can be examined on a conceptual level, but real physics requires a good foundation in math. No way around it.

 

Jane

[Anne/Ankara]

To get into university here in Switzerland, he has to have done 5 AP courses and since he is scientifically inclined, the physics should be one of them...

 

Thank you!

 

Joan, this doesn't exactly answer your question about physics, but you might consider having your ds check out the Environmental Science AP course, if he is looking to have 5 AP's and wants to shine in sciences. It could be an easily-done science that would not put him over the top in terms of workload.

 

I say this because my 13 yo ds just took this course and AP exam last semester, and learned a lot, and did quite well... Now he's more confident going into the other AP science courses (bio, chem, physics).

 

Just a thought!

[Joan in GE]

Joan, this doesn't exactly answer your question about physics, but you might consider having your ds check out the Environmental Science AP course, if he is looking to have 5 AP's and wants to shine in sciences. It could be an easily-done science that would not put him over the top in terms of workload.

 

I say this because my 13 yo ds just took this course and AP exam last semester, and learned a lot, and did quite well... Now he's more confident going into the other AP science courses (bio, chem, physics).

 

Just a thought!

Thank you - that is amazing...I didn't realize that he could succeed in science AP's so young! So much to learn!

[Joan in GE]

Trig is essential to physics.

 

Traditionally students are introduced to the basics of trig as triangular relationships in geometry. Some Algebra II books will cover trig; other curricula include this material in precalculus. Some curricula have a separate trig text, but that book is usually a duplicate of material in one of their other texts.

 

A Calculus course based on polynomials without trigonometric or other transcendental functions (like logs or hyperbolics) is relatively useless.

 

Physics can be examined on a conceptual level, but real physics requires a good foundation in math. No way around it.

 

Jane

Hi Jane, just trying to figure out the different systems...I don't think Saxon has precalc..do you know if they include trig in their Alg II? Which math program have you used? Thanks for the trig explanations. Joan

[Jane in NC]

Hi Jane, just trying to figure out the different systems...I don't think Saxon has precalc..do you know if they include trig in their Alg II? Which math program have you used? Thanks for the trig explanations. Joan

 

I believe that Saxon's Advanced Math is the equivalent of precalculus. Since I don't use Saxon (Dolciani fan here), I am not completely familiar with the series content. Perhaps someone else with weigh in??

 

Jane

[Gwen in VA]

If yours did calculus in 11th grade, did they do the AP calc in 11th grade also? or do another year of prep in 12th grade?

 

Joan

 

If your child does calculus in 11th grade, he should at least consider preparing for and then taking the AP calculus AB exam in 11th grade.

 

My kids did calculus 1 and calculus 2 their senior year at a local 4-year college. If we did not have the 4-year college available, we would have used a community college; I want them to receive an official grade for their calculus work, even if the college they end up going to won't give actual credit for it.

 

(My dd took caculus 1 at a 4-year college with a visiting professor from Israel. He was really funny -- he thought it perfectly natural for my dd to be taking calculus in high school and was quite upset at all the college students in his class who obviously did not take calculus in high school. Apparently in Israel calculus is part of the standard high school curriculum for college-bound kids.)

[Storm Bay]

Trig is essential to physics.

 

 

Physics can be examined on a conceptual level, but real physics requires a good foundation in math. No way around it.

 

Jane

 

Yes, lots and lots of math. My brother-the-physicist did lots of math, and is very good at it. So good, in fact, that his career choice was between math & physics. We're doing Conceptual Physics in Gr 10 anyway, in part because dd doesn't care much for Physics. She wants to major in biochemistry in university (just like my uncle, which is quite a surprise, and since she's met him once it's not from her close relationship with him!)

 

She will need a lot of math, of course, but from what I've garnered she can get into many non-Physics science programs having done Conceptual Physics in high school. She will have to do some AP science, but unless she changes her long standing interests, those will be in Biology & Chemistry. She's doing Conceptual Chemistry in Gr. 9, so will have to do that AP course later, IMO.

 

Math is important (although I might disupte its top-ranking purity;)--from Jane's thread) but being more of a whole-to-parts learner I lean toward doing the conceptual first, and the mathy one second. That way we have the big picture to hang all the math on. Plus, we've been doing math for math's sake separately.

[Joan in GE]

Gwen, Now I'm trying to figure out what to eliminate if he is to take Calc 1 in 11th grade...He did Alg I in 8th and now going into 9th..if he does

9 Geometry

10 Alg II

then 11 Advanced math or Calc 1, he might not be getting enough trig in the Saxon to succeed...have we started too late then?

 

We don't have any curriculum fairs here - so it is hard to figure out the difference between books and contemplate changing from Saxon to someone else, though I am for the geometry...Since my son wants to be an architect, I thought geometry might be useful...(clearly an inexperienced mom here)...

 

Any input appreciated...

Joan

[Gwen in VA]

If he is oind algebra 1 in 8th, then he is on a strong track to do calculus 1 (and possibly calculus 2) his senior year.

 

8th -- algebra

9th -- geometry

10th -- algebra 2

11th -- the decision point. I would recommend that you not skip the precalculus class. Precalculus is a bit like prealgebra -- it's a good chance to REALLY solidify all of those concepts covered previously so the student is totally ready for calculus.

 

If you are really interested in having your student do calculus in 11th grade, you have a few options other than just skipping precalculus.

 

1) Do geometry and algebra 2 concurrently in 9th grade. It takes a lot of time but should be doable for a motivated student. They are quite different subjects, so the student isn't particularly likely just to "get tired" of math.

 

2) Do precalculus through the local community college, doing one semester of it during the summer after 10th grade and then one semester during the fall of 11th grade. He would then be able to do calculus 1 spring on junior year and so could do calculus-based physics his senior year......

 

I have spent a LOT of time thinking about how to accelerate a kid through math. My son, a future engineer, stalled out in algebra 1. (He finished algebra YESTERDAY -- hurrah!). So he did both algebra 1 and geometry concurrently this year and will do algebra 2 and geometry concurrently next year until the geometry is finished....There is more than one way to do a thing!

[Storm Bay]

Our plan is Calculus in dd's senior/gr. 12 year and she plans to major in biochemistry. Technically, she could do it in her junior year since she's already finished Alg 1 at 13, but we're doing a review with a different book (Dolciani and Gelfand's, so 2 books) instead because she took sooooooooo long with Alg 1 (2 years) and I think she's getting a far better grounding in the thinking and logic part of math this way, which is what she needs at this point. The only AP courses I'm planning at this time are Biology and Chemistry. Naturally, I reserve the right to change that plan;).

[LoriM]

A simple way to do more math in high school is to do it 12 months. My dd completed Algebra 1, Algebra 2, Geometry, Trigonometry, PreCalculus, Calc I (for Life Sciences) and Intro Statistics at home then College Algebra, Intro Statistics, PreCalc and Calc I at the CC before graduating from high school at 18.

 

And I am not a math Nazi, despite what that looks like...

[Kanga]

Gwen, Now I'm trying to figure out what to eliminate if he is to take Calc 1 in 11th grade...He did Alg I in 8th and now going into 9th..if he does

9 Geometry

10 Alg II

then 11 Advanced math or Calc 1, he might not be getting enough trig in the Saxon to succeed...have we started too late then?

 

We don't have any curriculum fairs here - so it is hard to figure out the difference between books and contemplate changing from Saxon to someone else, though I am for the geometry...Since my son wants to be an architect, I thought geometry might be useful...(clearly an inexperienced mom here)...

 

Any input appreciated...

Joan

 

If you are using Saxon and your ds likes it you do not need to do a separate Geometry as they include it in their Algebra 1 and Algebra 2 texts. So if you stick with Saxon his Math schedule would be:

 

8th - Algebra 1

9th - Algebra 2

10th - Advanced Math (which is the equivalent of PreCalc.)

11th - Calculus

 

So his 12th year he would be prepared for Physics and he could also do Calculus 2 if he wanted to.

[Joan in GE]

Thank you all for your ideas...It is funny because my son had just proposed doing Alg II and geometry next year at the same time...Since I never heard of anyone else doing that I was skeptical and dismissing...So I had to eat my words today...And he proposed doing math in the summer as well...so I think I don't have to worry...Now I just have to get to look at some of these other programs to see if one is better than Saxon which is hard over here!

[Kathy in MD]

Don't let your science and math goals squeeze out what you're ds will really need for architecture school -- a good art background. He will need good sketching skills, composition and color knowledge. These days, a good command of computer generated art would also be wise. Remember that architecture is a visual art and architects communicate via drawings and sketches. And architects are expected to hire civil and mechanical engineers to design the technical aspects for mid to large size projects.

 

The stress on math and science will vary from school to school. CA schools of architecture will stress science and math more than most schools because architectects must be able to pass tests in earthquake design and be able to design for earthquakes. Twenty-five, thirty years ago,my college engineering profs refused to teach us enough engineering to design mid-high rise buildings, becuase they didn't have enough time to teach us to become full-fledge engineers. All we needed was a good understanding of algebra and static physics to use the formulas in the design handbooks. 4-2 schools tended to be more artsy than the more techinical 5 year school I attended. So check with the schools your ds is interested in to find out what they really expect in the way of math and science background and understanding.

 

Now my high school education was heavy into math and science and severely lacking in art. Some of my classmates who struggled with math may have a different view of what's neccessary. :)

[Joan in GE]

Thank you for those thoughts! It is true that I may be going astray...It is so hard to think so far in advance...I've seen the drawing materials recommended in the WTM - do you have any others?

 

Could I ask you which architecture schools you would recommend? I will try to find their requirements and then plan backwards...

 

It is difficult as we may be moving to China, the US, or staying here in Switzerland next school year, so I'm busy buying up French books at the used book market and trying to plan for all kinds of permutations of the future...

 

Thanks,

joan

[Kathy in MD]

Thank you for those thoughts! It is true that I may be going astray...It is so hard to think so far in advance...I've seen the drawing materials recommended in the WTM - do you have any others?

 

Could I ask you which architecture schools you would recommend? I will try to find their requirements and then plan backwards...

 

It is difficult as we may be moving to China, the US, or staying here in Switzerland next school year, so I'm busy buying up French books at the used book market and trying to plan for all kinds of permutations of the future...

 

Thanks,

joan

 

I don't know the art programs that well, but your ds will need to know how to sketch quickly. When ideas are bubbling, you want to be able to "jot" them down as quickly as possible. That means floor "bubble" plans, sections, perspectives and details. He'll also need to refine these skills for formal presentations, if he's not doing it by computer. He needs to know color, for actual design work and presentations. He'll also need to know sulpture somewhat. Architecture is a 3-D art and is still best presented by 3-D models. We made them by clay for preliminary work and chipboard for final presentations. I don't know what they're using these days.

 

As for schools,I can't give you any recommendations (except my alma mater, Ball State ;) ), because I've never researched them well and have been out of the field for over 20 years. However I can give you some things to think about.

 

There are two basic types of architecture schools; a 4-2 school and a 5 year school. A 4-2 school has the students do a 4 year pre-architecture program, then they apply for the architecture program. If accepted, they attend for an additional 2 years and graduate with a Masters of Architecture. These schools tend to be more artistically inclined. With a 5 year program, a student is accepted directly into the architecture program and studies for 5 years. The student graduates with a Bachelor of Architecture. These programs stress more the engineering and technical side of architecture, however the main focus is still design. One drawback of a 5 year school is most students accepted as freshmen don't get their B Arch. Most do drop out their freshman year, but see if the school has a 4 year alternative degree for those who change their mind fairly late in the game, like me (I'm a lousy 10 hours short) :(

 

Another option University of IL had at one time was a dual degree, allowing the student to become both a registered architect and engineer after finishing the appropriate apprenticeships and passing the tests.

 

A telling comment from a registered architect when I graduated was that he felt the schools (and they were all 5 year schools around where I lived) over-stressed the importance of design. Most of an architectural practice involves non-design skills.

 

Once you decide on a 5 year or 4-2 school, you'll want to look into what other schools the school is combined with. Is the architecture department part of the College of Enginnering? If so, I imagine that the engineers will heavily influence the design of the engineering course and the student had best be prepared calculus based engineering. Is it part of a liberal arts university? There'll probably be more of a stress on artistic work. Is it associated with urban planning and landscape architecture? The school will still stress design, but might not be as artsy.

 

Next check the design philosphy of the school. Look at the work of the professors and the students. Some are heavy into rehab and older classical design, some heavily Frank Lloyd Wright, some Swedish and Japanese design, some into a huge combination. Note also that losing one or two profs could affect the philosophy taught. Right now, most schools will also be stressing environmental design, reducing the carbon impact. (Som schools are participating in the design competitions where they build actual houses on the DC mall and live in them for a week and check for effeciency) If your ds has a strong preference for some design philosophy, he should find a school that is oriented that way.

 

Look also at the ratio of students to professors IN THE FRESHEMAN DESIGN CLASSES. 1:15 is considered good by parents, upper classmen consider it too high. A large portion of the design classes teaching is a one-on-one critique of each individual project. Teach your child to grab and drag the prof to his desk if the prof isn't coming by frequently.

 

Check into the attitude for helping the students get through the school. My sister attended a major engineering school where, in the first engineering class for incoming freshmen, the prof announced "we will flunk 50% of you in this class". Compare it to my first day where the profs said, "Only 25% of you will choose to complete the program" Very different attitude. Statisitics are still bad, but in one case it's left up to the student.

 

One last thing, your ds should be prepared for heavy work and no sleep while he's in college. In architecture there is no "right" answer and the student can always "tweak" his project just a bit more. However, if your ds is one of the gifted artistic types who can stay away from the studios all weekend, stroll in with a tennis racquet late Sun afternoon, and within an hour whip out a professional presentation board for Mon's assignment, I will personally come over and brain him for all the students who've been slaving without sleep since Friday. :) :)

 

I've probably confused you and put you to sleep. But if you're daring, you can always ask me more questions ;)

 

Added: a high school architectural drafting class let me get a drafting position during the summers to work my way through school.

[TraceyS/FL]

They may be beneath your son at this point - but there are some technical drawing stuff out there. I spent a brief time in the College of Architecture at Arizona State university (did you know that when you go from marketing to architecture not much transfers???? LOL!), and the skills in these 2 series would have suited me well.

 

(and maybe he has already done them too - can i do them with my kids???)

 

http://www.sixbranches.com/PD.htm (and i'm planning on my DD doing it by hand, then she can use the computer)

And the Complete a Sketch series: http://www.sixbranches.com/CAS01.htm

 

School wise i'm only familiar with:

Cal-Poly San Luis Obispo, http://www.caed.calpoly.edu/

My Dad went here, it's a heavy engineering school. It was too close to home for me to go to... my ex-boyfriend ended up going thru their Architecture program though, after i broke up with him and he didn't want to go to ASU any longer.

 

And my college roomies boyfriend was going here:

http://www.pratt.edu/school_of_architecture

 

Hopefully that will give you some places to look at for admission requirements.

[MaryM]

Okay, since this discussion has turned to training prep for architects and I am married to one (!) I'd strongly suggest grounding in good communication skills. TOo often the artist outstanding skills are lost to lack of presentation or to the sensitive (or stubbornness) of the person(s) behind the plan. Working on the otherside with architects and with design artists I can say that those who could listen well, very well and interpret what was being communicated faired the best. This is not pushing aside the sound grounding in drawing and math. Just saying that all too often in all majors for that matter, we neglect the importance of good communication skills! Now, don't ask me for the ideal program because I'm still looking!! I truly admire YOUR planning for your ds's future with such diligence. Feel free to discard all of this, btw!!

 

Mary

[Joan in GE]

Okay, since this discussion has turned to training prep for architects and I am married to one (!) I'd strongly suggest grounding in good communication skills. TOo often the artist outstanding skills are lost to lack of presentation or to the sensitive (or stubbornness) of the person(s) behind the plan. Working on the otherside with architects and with design artists I can say that those who could listen well, very well and interpret what was being communicated faired the best. This is not pushing aside the sound grounding in drawing and math. Just saying that all too often in all majors for that matter, we neglect the importance of good communication skills! Now, don't ask me for the ideal program because I'm still looking!! I truly admire YOUR planning for your ds's future with such diligence. Feel free to discard all of this, btw!!

 

Mary

Actually, your comment is very important because this is one son who has trouble expressing himself!!!

 

But I can really see your point because who wants to pay for a design that is not what they want? Well, this will be a good motivator for communication!