battling perfectionism/doing hard things

[blondeviolin]

We have hit a few problems in math where Abby decides they are "too hard" and won't even attempt them. For example, yesterday we had a problem: "I am more than 3+2 and less than 8-2. What number am I?" She had completed three problems like these previously while I was in the shower, but this one she decided was too hard: "I don't knooooooooow. IT'S TOO HAAAAARRRD!!!!"

 

:001_huh: So I said, "Well, what is 3+2?" (She ABSOLUTELY knows this, and has for months.)

 

Her: "I DON'T KNOW! I caaaaan't dooooo this!"

 

Me, grabbing the rods: "Pull out the 3 and 2 rod."

 

Her: "I CAN'T. I DON'T KNOW."

 

Me: "Here is the light green and red. What do they make?"

 

Her: "THIS IS TOOO HARD! My brain is stretched enough! I don't need to practice hard things I NEED TO GO OUTSIDE!"

 

 

The same thing happens when she approaches a word in her reading. She guesses and if it's not right, she absolutely does not want to sound it out because it's TOOOO HARRRD of course.

 

I understand that she's only 5, but my inkling is that this is not age/development related, but more that things are not glaringly obvious. At times, she decides it's so hard she won't even try the smaller components that she does know.

 

*sigh* This happens at your home, right?

[Dmmetler]

Yes, yes it does.

 

Things that have helped:

 

1) Finding something she wants to do that she's not natively good at. For DD, that's tumbling and gymnastics, because she loves cheerleading (at the local parks and rec), and she wants to eventually do the fun, scary stuff she sees high school and college competitive teams do. So, I put her in gymnastics classes, figuring that this would be a way to help her meet her goals, and it's been great for her. NO ONE learns a back handspring quickly-or is even good enough to get to try to do one when they first start. And since all of her coaches have been competitive gymnasts, cheerleaders or (often-apparently it's easier to get cheer scholarships than gymnastics ones) both, they understand her goals and are able to connect what they're asking to those goals-even if it's 50 sit ups. It has been SO good for her to have something that's not easy, where she's not getting "Wow, you're so smart", and to have someone but mommy pushing her to challenge herself-and the 20-something college student coaches have been wonderful for this purpose.

 

 

2) Using a whiteboard instead of paper. This was something I discovered more when she started getting to problems that were visually more complicated-regrouping, for example, or some of the Singapore problems with multiple steps and models to draw. On the whiteboard, she can completely erase parts that she takes the wrong path on, or when she realizes that she didn't line things up and divided 9 into 7209 and got 8001 instead of 801, without the ghosts of her past mistakes still being there. Or even past steps.

 

3) Actively working on and rewarding the behaviors we want. DD, last summer, went through a major funk about being homeschooled and not having "School stuff"-like the awards and incentives her cousins and some of her friends get. So I applied that, getting cute little incentive charts and punch cards and stickers/hole punches so she could collect them. When she attacks a hard, not completely obvious problem, and works through it, right or wrong, without tears and angst, she gets to add a sticker or a punch (depending on what kind we're using this week). When she makes a mistake, and either notices and corrects it on her own, without tears and angst, or accepts ME correcting her and is able to look at it and work through it without tears and angst, she gets a sticker or punch. It's amazing how well it's worked, and how much SHE'S starting to monitor her behavior and recognize that she worked through something hard or challenging or frustrating. I also notice that she's really good about, when it's easy, stepping back and not giving herself gems for each thing, so something I'd feared would be an issue hasn't been. I think it's also been a big help in that it forced ME to focus on the positive-handling the stress and frustration well, not the negative (the tears, whining, and stalling behavior). I had originally planned to exchange the filled charts for some form of prize, but what I've found is that it's not needed-it's the act of DOING it and getting it, right then, that's important.

 

 

 

 

 

 

It's still an ongoing battle, but she's much better at 7 than she was at 5.

Edited January 11, 2012 by dmmetler

[jenbrdsly]

It's funny you should mention this, because my son and I just had a situation involving perfectionism last week.

 

I don't know if I'm reading too much into your post, but I'm wondering if you might be having the same parent/kid mix as us. Do you both, by chance, struggle with perfectionism? :) It's really hard for me when my son won't do something that I know he can do, but that's because I struggle with perfectionism myself.

 

Another thought is that maybe your daughter needs to move quicker through math, and that she might be refusing to do something that she considers too easy or boring. That's another problem we have too.

[2smartones]

I remember running into this with my first child. I learned the hard way that it meant he was bored with repetition and wanted something more challenging. I also agree with using a dry-erase board whenever possible. Also try word problems outside of "math class". Say "I need 5 eggs this morning, but I only grabbed 3 from the fridge. Can you bring me the rest, please?"

 

You can also start doing multi-digit addition without carrying. (123+321, for example) I've found that giving "big problems" or "big words" really boosts self esteem. ;)

[Guest tokinouta]

I do the same approach my mom did.

Son, "I don't want to do it", me," that's great, I need your help anyway. I have so many chores I have to do that I'm in need of assistance. Since you won't be busy with school work then I am grateful you can help me out today."

Most of the time he says, no, no, I will just do my school work, never mind. lol But on the off time he says, ok, then I get help with the chores, we have good conversation. It works out either way. The next day he gladly picks the school work. :)

I think on those times he is just sick of school work and needs a break. It can be a constructive break though. Sometimes we need something worse to make what we are doing look "not so bad". lol Homeschooling can lack challenge sometimes because there isn't enough "yin" in the "yang" so to speak. We need some uncomfortable time in there as well. If not I've noticed they will make their own. :eek:

[Dmmetler]

Oh, and one more-when you KNOW they can do it, walk away. I'm doing that right now in fact, as the tears threaten to fall over a logic page that I know she had no trouble with similar problems yesterday. If I'm not there, she has no help to call on, and no audience for the angst, so she tends to do a better job of solving the problems on her own-and then feels good when she comes back to show me that she got it. It's a great time to start a load of laundry, load the dishwasher, or check facebook-anything that means I'm not hovering.

 

This is something that school teachers do just by virtue of the fact that they have 20+ kids, even at age 5, and it's something I've had to teach myself to do because it's so contrary to my "mom" instincts.

[Lisa in the UP of MI]

Yes, it does, and I've definitely noticed that my kids have a "bad" time of year, where they are crankier, more easily frustrated, etc. It seems to start shortly before their birthdays and last for at least a few months. My 3yo and 5yo are just entering into this phase (January and March birthdays) and even my previously completely laid-back new 2yo is much more cranky than usual. Sickness and being overtired changes their moods for the worse, too. When they get really frustrated, we just stop what we're doing.

Edited January 12, 2012 by Lisa in the UP of MI

[kiana]

1) Finding something she wants to do that she's not natively good at. For DD, that's tumbling and gymnastics, because she loves cheerleading (at the local parks and rec), and she wants to eventually do the fun, scary stuff she sees high school and college competitive teams do. So, I put her in gymnastics classes, figuring that this would be a way to help her meet her goals, and it's been great for her. NO ONE learns a back handspring quickly-or is even good enough to get to try to do one when they first start. And since all of her coaches have been competitive gymnasts, cheerleaders or (often-apparently it's easier to get cheer scholarships than gymnastics ones) both, they understand her goals and are able to connect what they're asking to those goals-even if it's 50 sit ups. It has been SO good for her to have something that's not easy, where she's not getting "Wow, you're so smart", and to have someone but mommy pushing her to challenge herself-and the 20-something college student coaches have been wonderful for this purpose.

 

:iagree:

 

Starting a physical activity that I kind of stink at has been wonderful for my perfectionism as an adult, and I wish there'd been something around as a child. I, btw, was exactly like your dd :P

[blondeviolin]

Yes, yes it does.

 

Things that have helped:

 

1) Finding something she wants to do that she's not natively good at. For DD, that's tumbling and gymnastics, because she loves cheerleading (at the local parks and rec), and she wants to eventually do the fun, scary stuff she sees high school and college competitive teams do. So, I put her in gymnastics classes, figuring that this would be a way to help her meet her goals, and it's been great for her. NO ONE learns a back handspring quickly-or is even good enough to get to try to do one when they first start. And since all of her coaches have been competitive gymnasts, cheerleaders or (often-apparently it's easier to get cheer scholarships than gymnastics ones) both, they understand her goals and are able to connect what they're asking to those goals-even if it's 50 sit ups. It has been SO good for her to have something that's not easy, where she's not getting "Wow, you're so smart", and to have someone but mommy pushing her to challenge herself-and the 20-something college student coaches have been wonderful for this purpose.

 

 

2) Using a whiteboard instead of paper. This was something I discovered more when she started getting to problems that were visually more complicated-regrouping, for example, or some of the Singapore problems with multiple steps and models to draw. On the whiteboard, she can completely erase parts that she takes the wrong path on, or when she realizes that she didn't line things up and divided 9 into 7209 and got 8001 instead of 801, without the ghosts of her past mistakes still being there. Or even past steps.

 

3) Actively working on and rewarding the behaviors we want. DD, last summer, went through a major funk about being homeschooled and not having "School stuff"-like the awards and incentives her cousins and some of her friends get. So I applied that, getting cute little incentive charts and punch cards and stickers/hole punches so she could collect them. When she attacks a hard, not completely obvious problem, and works through it, right or wrong, without tears and angst, she gets to add a sticker or a punch (depending on what kind we're using this week). When she makes a mistake, and either notices and corrects it on her own, without tears and angst, or accepts ME correcting her and is able to look at it and work through it without tears and angst, she gets a sticker or punch. It's amazing how well it's worked, and how much SHE'S starting to monitor her behavior and recognize that she worked through something hard or challenging or frustrating. I also notice that she's really good about, when it's easy, stepping back and not giving herself gems for each thing, so something I'd feared would be an issue hasn't been. I think it's also been a big help in that it forced ME to focus on the positive-handling the stress and frustration well, not the negative (the tears, whining, and stalling behavior). I had originally planned to exchange the filled charts for some form of prize, but what I've found is that it's not needed-it's the act of DOING it and getting it, right then, that's important.

 

 

 

 

 

 

It's still an ongoing battle, but she's much better at 7 than she was at 5.

 

This is an awesome list! I keep coming back to it. Thank you! We've paused a bit at the regrouping because she has not figured out how to hold all of those numbers in her head. We use a whiteboard regularly, but wonder if she could do regrouping easier on the whiteboard...hmmm...

 

And we did put her in swim so she could do something that she's not as good at. That worked for a time, especially when her little brother passed her up and shows a great aptitude for it. Now, though, we're running into the problem where they get comments that it is very uncommon for 4/5-year-olds to be in Level 3/4 swim. :glare: I think this summer we'll be placing her in gymnastics.

 

I wonder what would work for her for a do-hard-things incentive... I'll have to think on that one more...

 

It's funny you should mention this, because my son and I just had a situation involving perfectionism last week.

 

I don't know if I'm reading too much into your post, but I'm wondering if you might be having the same parent/kid mix as us. Do you both, by chance, struggle with perfectionism? :) It's really hard for me when my son won't do something that I know he can do, but that's because I struggle with perfectionism myself.

 

Ummm... Guilty as charged. :tongue_smilie: But, I'm trying really hard to keep it in check and am doing a bang-up job if I do say so myself. :D In this aspect, I am empathetic because I remember the first time I was given something that didn't come naturally...I was a lot older, though. And because I was public-schooled, I was never academically challenged.

 

Another thought is that maybe your daughter needs to move quicker through math, and that she might be refusing to do something that she considers too easy or boring. That's another problem we have too.

 

I remember running into this with my first child. I learned the hard way that it meant he was bored with repetition and wanted something more challenging.

 

This is counter-intuitive to me. If she's balking at a problem that she considers too hard and won't even attempt the easier parts, what will she do when I give her a harder problem? :confused:

 

I actually am feeling like it's the opposite problem. For the last few months we've been skipping and zooming through SM1 like it was a cake-walk for her. Now, I think we're reaching a spot where maybe we shouldn't zoom so quickly through the work. Either it's at her level or she just needs a bit of a mental break...so I think we're going to just start doing only one lesson of MEP1B for a while. (Yes, she had been asking for multiple math lessons a day...)

 

 

Oh, and one more-when you KNOW they can do it, walk away. I'm doing that right now in fact, as the tears threaten to fall over a logic page that I know she had no trouble with similar problems yesterday. If I'm not there, she has no help to call on, and no audience for the angst, so she tends to do a better job of solving the problems on her own-and then feels good when she comes back to show me that she got it. It's a great time to start a load of laundry, load the dishwasher, or check facebook-anything that means I'm not hovering.

 

This is something that school teachers do just by virtue of the fact that they have 20+ kids, even at age 5, and it's something I've had to teach myself to do because it's so contrary to my "mom" instincts.

 

I've tried this, but she is just passive aggressive and stares out the window refusing to do it. If I walk away, she doesn't yell and scream, she just sits there all day with the problem undone. :001_huh:

 

Yes, it does, and I've definitely noticed that my kids have a "bad" time of year, where they are crankier, more easily frustrated, etc. It seems to start shortly before their birthdays and last for at least a few months. My 3yo and 5yo are just entering into this phase (January and March birthdays) and even my previously completely laid-back new 2yo is much more cranky than usual. Sickness and being overtired changes their moods for the worse, too. When they get really frustrated, we just stop what we're doing.

 

This is an awesome reminder. Thank you!

[Lang Syne Boardie]

No, this wouldn't happen at my house with a five-year-old.

 

Some of my children were reading chapter books at age three, working three grades ahead in math, etc., but none of them were forced to do school before age 6. I believe Charlotte Mason was right about not hurrying into evaluating, analyzing, and pushing a child so young.

 

CM and I would agree with your daughter that she needs to go outside. :)

 

Just another perspective!

[Ester Maria]

No, this wouldn't happen at my house with a five-year-old.

 

Some of my children were reading chapter books at age three, working three grades ahead in math, etc., but none of them were forced to do school before age 6. I believe Charlotte Mason was right about not hurrying into evaluating, analyzing, and pushing a child so young.

 

CM and I would agree with your daughter that she needs to go outside. :)

 

Just another perspective!

I am in the "take it easy" camp too when it comes to this age. I can understand why OP would start feeling slightly uncomfortable about noticing perfectionist tendencies in a child, but a year or two of a difference really make a difference with such small children, IME.

[blondeviolin]

I am in the "take it easy" camp too when it comes to this age. I can understand why OP would start feeling slightly uncomfortable about noticing perfectionist tendencies in a child, but a year or two of a difference really make a difference with such small children, IME.

 

I appreciate your opinion about academics, but this extends to all facets of life: bike-riding, dressing herself (at age 3), coloring a picture, tying her shoes, folding a shirt.

[Greenmama2]

I appreciate your opinion about academics, but this extends to all facets of life: bike-riding, dressing herself (at age 3), coloring a picture, tying her shoes, folding a shirt.

:iagree:Gosh yes. My perfectionist 5 year old does NOT save it just for academic stuff.

[ebunny]

We have hit a few problems in math where Abby decides they are "too hard" and won't even attempt them. For example, yesterday we had a problem: "I am more than 3+2 and less than 8-2. What number am I?" She had completed three problems like these previously while I was in the shower, but this one she decided was too hard: "I don't knooooooooow. IT'S TOO HAAAAARRRD!!!!"

 

:001_huh: So I said, "Well, what is 3+2?" (She ABSOLUTELY knows this, and has for months.)

 

Her: "I DON'T KNOW! I caaaaan't dooooo this!"

 

Me, grabbing the rods: "Pull out the 3 and 2 rod."

 

Her: "I CAN'T. I DON'T KNOW."

 

Me: "Here is the light green and red. What do they make?"

 

Her: "THIS IS TOOO HARD! My brain is stretched enough! I don't need to practice hard things I NEED TO GO OUTSIDE!"

 

 

The same thing happens when she approaches a word in her reading. She guesses and if it's not right, she absolutely does not want to sound it out because it's TOOOO HARRRD of course.

 

I understand that she's only 5, but my inkling is that this is not age/development related, but more that things are not glaringly obvious. At times, she decides it's so hard she won't even try the smaller components that she does know.

 

*sigh* This happens at your home, right?

 

Yes. Yes, it does. IMO, potential does not equal willingness to work hard.

 

It took me over 5 months to get DD to a point where she would be willing to 'work' at anything that is not effortless for her.

Nothing seemed to help change her attitude and then on the suggestion of a friend, I decided to set an example of "working hard" where I took up something completely out of my comfort zone.

 

I'd taken up sewing and she could see that I struggled and that sometimes we need to work really hard at something when the reward may not be instant. It worked like nothing else did.

 

HTH