I never thought I'd say this...

[TKDmom]

But I'm thinking about switching my dd10 over to Saxon or maybe Teaching Textbooks for math.

 

She's in 5th grade and just about finished with MM 4A. It's been a struggle. When I pulled her out of school, I used Singapore with her for 2 years (2A to 3B), and math always led to tears and frustration. I switched over to MM in March, hoping that taking me partially out of the equation would make it easier for her, but she continuously struggles to get through the assignments. I feel like she is falling farther and farther behind. Today, she had a melt-down again. After 20 problems of volume conversions, she was tired and frustrated and knew less about volume than when she started. The more time I spent walking her through problems, the more frustrated she became. I'm am starting to wonder if she needs more incremental, spiral instruction. If those volume problems had been spread out over a few days and mixed with other types of problems, I think she would have handled them better.

 

The incremental "spiral of death" has always made my skin crawl. But dd is very different from me. It never ceases to amaze me that the child of an engineer and a scientist can dislike math so much. She likes art and creative writing and languages (the subjects that I'd be happy never to see again). In some ways we are so much alike, but when it comes to math...it's like we are speaking different languages.

 

I'm not even sure what I'm asking...but I'd love to hear experiences or advice. I don't like the idea of switching math programs again. Should I keep plugging away with Math Mammoth? Or do you think switching to a spiral program with more review would help her gain more confidence in math?

[justLisa]

You know what? I have recently come to realize it is OK that my children have preferences and do not need to walking bookworms/geniuses in every facet of their lives.

 

What does she dream of doing? If she is language-y etc maybe she won't need engineering calculus some day. Right now I think it's important to keep them at a certain level in all areas, but let them excel where they desire. If you can afford it I would place her and just go with TT for a while. There are plenty of people who use this successfully. It's not like you can never catch up some day if there is a gap somewhere KWIM? I mean, she is miserable with math as of now, so just tell yourself it's ok to go easy for a while and just do an acceptable amount. Maybe she will start liking math again? Saxon and TT would be a bit much for us. I would use TT and just keep MM worksheets for areas that maybe need a bit further focus.

 

My DS IS a math kid. He's only 7, but I already know he's walking in dad's, and his dad's, and his....and so on footsteps. DH is an architect but engineer by schooling, and every fast man in his family as well. It's just what they love. I'm not sure for DD, but I will be ok if she goes a different route. I have TT3, but it was far behind for us as like I say DS IS very mathy. Maybe my DD will need it, I don't know yet but I'm ok with that.

[SewLittleTime]

I just switched my ds to Saxon last week. I never thought I'd do it, but he is much happier with math. I've enjoyed the good attitude over the last week. I'm sure the honeymoon will wear off eventually.

[ondreeuh]

My son is doing Saxon this year, and I have to say that it's better than I thought it would be. My one complaint is that the lessons switch rapidly between topics. Rarely are there 2 lessons in a row that focus on the same thing.

 

My dream program would follow more of a topical progression with the new teaching, and break it into increments so there is just a bit of new teaching each lesson, and each lesson would have lots of spiraled review. Actually, Holt Middle School Math does this (except they don't have a LOT of spiral review), and I bought it to use this year, but I will probably wait until next year.

[TKDmom]

What does she dream of doing? If she is language-y etc maybe she won't need engineering calculus some day.

 

She wants to be an elementary school teacher and teach her kids with Sonlight and MCT (her favorite curricula so far). DS8 (the budding architect) is going to build the school for her. ;)

 

 

If you can afford it I would place her and just go with TT for a while. There are plenty of people who use this successfully. It's not like you can never catch up some day if there is a gap somewhere KWIM? I mean, she is miserable with math as of now, so just tell yourself it's ok to go easy for a while and just do an acceptable amount. Maybe she will start liking math again? Saxon and TT would be a bit much for us. I would use TT and just keep MM worksheets for areas that maybe need a bit further focus.

 

I really think she would like TT. I definitely wouldn't use both. I just don't want to buy yet another expensive curriculum and it's pretty easy to find cheap copies of Saxon.

[justLisa]

She wants to be an elementary school teacher and teach her kids with Sonlight and MCT (her favorite curricula so far). DS8 (the budding architect) is going to build the school for her. ;)

 

 

 

 

I really think she would like TT. I definitely wouldn't use both. I just don't want to buy yet another expensive curriculum and it's pretty easy to find cheap copies of Saxon.

 

That is precious! Well, for what it's worth I was taught with Saxon though not until Algebra and I did well with it.

[AHASRADA]

I also never considered either Saxon or TT because of the bad rap both can receive from other hsers. Saxon was supposed to be rote and boring, not teaching "mathematical thinking", and TT was too easy.

 

After slogging through Right Start math with lots of tears, I broke down and gave Saxon a try. It was exactly what my dd needed. She requires a ton of repetition and constant review to maintain concepts. I also loved how Saxon (in Grades 1-3) actually spells out how to teach the math facts and schedules it into the lessons! So many programs just say "learn the 3s", and leave it at that. Following Saxon's schedules made it a breeze.

 

We used Saxon for grades 2-5 very successfully. However, it can be time-consuming, especially in the younger grades (not so much in 4th and above). I had a baby last year, and it was hard for me to find the time to work through the lessons with her and correct her work. She is very independent and wanted a program she could do on her own, asking me questions as they came up.

 

So, we switched to TT this year. It is working wonderfully. It is set up quite similarly to Saxon, but dd can do it completely on her own. I love that worked out and explained solutions are offered for all the problems, so if she gets one wrong, she can see why. I feel like Saxon is a bit meatier and has more extensive review each day, but for our situation, it is perfect. I have her do a "Daily Math Review" workbook as well, which has 5 problems per day, to make sure she is getting enough well-rounded review.

 

So, if you feel either program would work for your dc, don't be intimidated by the comments of others, go for it.

[mjbucks1]

I just wanted to share that my kids have used Saxon from Saxon 1 through Advanced Math (DS is on lesson 18) and they have done very well with it. Saxon gets a "bad rap", but there are those of us who like it :). It has always taken my kids about 1 1/2 hours to complete the lessons, so keep that in mind. However, they really do understand math. I have never used MM, but 20 of the same problems would drive my kids bonkers :lol:. They like the mix of the problems they have every day with Saxon. Obviously, none of us can make the decision for you. Do you have anyone nearby that would let you borrow either TT or Saxon to let you try it? I have loaned out textbooks in the past for others to try. I hope you can find something that will work!!

 

Blessings,

Michelle

[KarenNC]

We used Singapore from Earlybird-4a (switched from US to Standards in 3A when it became available). Math was a continual struggle, tears, frustration, "I hate math, I'm stupid at math, I can't do this," etc but I perservered because Singapore was the "only" curriculum to use with a bright child:001_rolleyes: and switching felt like admitting failure.:glare: For comparison purposes, she consistently tests well above grade level in language-related areas and only somewhat above grade level in math on the WJIII.

 

Mid-4th I gave up and switched. I did the placement tests for Saxon and she tested at the edge of 6/5 and 7/6 so I decided to do a few Key to books aimed at the areas she missed and start 7/6 for 5th grade (honestly, I think it was to help me feel better about switching). This was a bit of a mistake, as she started strong, but test scores declined (in the program). I contacted Art Reed (wonderful resource) for assistance. Per his advice, we tested through 6/5 then went into 7/6 this year.

 

It's been like night and day! Math is still not her favorite subject, but she is progressing wonderfully, understands what she's doing, is worlds more confident, she's still on track to start algebra in 8th grade and.....math isn't torture for either of us! It's not at all tedious. We spend a few minutes going over the lesson each morning and she does the problem set as homework. I would say lessons are generaly 10-15 minutes and a problem set takes her about 30 minutes. When I asked her how long she spends, she said it took her about an hour initially as she got used to the way Saxon worked, but it takes less and less time as she gets used to it. She also says, "It's WAY better than Singapore!":) The key, I think, is truly placing them in the proper level. When I tried jumping up to 7/6 last year prematurely, lessons took a lot longer, as did the homework. I am currently using xtramath.org as her math fact practice just because it's a bit easier (and she likes doing it on the computer). If a lesson is particularly short, I sometimes add in a lesson or two from Life of Fred to mix things up a little. I considered getting Art Reed's teaching dvds ($50 per level, starts at 7/6) for this year to take myself more out of the picture and give her someone else's way of explaining, but it's not proving necessary anymore. I may still consider that later, but things are going well now.

Edited November 16, 2011 by KarenNC

[boscopup]

Take a look at CLE. It's spiral, but not a death spiral. It's also reasonably advanced, yet gentle and good for building confidence.

[wapiti]

Another option to consider is breaking MM up in a way that you prefer. The time and measurement chapter could probably be spread out, as could the geometry chapter. I'd circle a couple of problems from those the chapter to be done each day. If you like the conceptual teaching, I'd try to find a way to work with it. Make the curriculum work for you, not the other way around. Also, don't forget the worksheet maker, if you'd prefer sparse practice problems on plain white paper (you could do half a page one day, half a page the next, etc.); in some circumstances these might be able to replace some of the practice problems in the book.

 

So, tomorrow, think about moving on to whatever's next. Take that measurement chapter and select a couple of problems to add on to the end of your math for the day. IME, MM is fairly tweakable.

 

FWIW, at this point, I would not consider a kiddo's potential future plans as relevant to decisions about math curricula.

[BlueTaelon]

But I'm thinking about switching my dd10 over to Saxon or maybe Teaching Textbooks for math.

 

She's in 5th grade and just about finished with MM 4A. It's been a struggle. When I pulled her out of school, I used Singapore with her for 2 years (2A to 3B), and math always led to tears and frustration. I switched over to MM in March, hoping that taking me partially out of the equation would make it easier for her, but she continuously struggles to get through the assignments. I feel like she is falling farther and farther behind. Today, she had a melt-down again. After 20 problems of volume conversions, she was tired and frustrated and knew less about volume than when she started. The more time I spent walking her through problems, the more frustrated she became. I'm am starting to wonder if she needs more incremental, spiral instruction. If those volume problems had been spread out over a few days and mixed with other types of problems, I think she would have handled them better.

 

I'd be in tears too working out 20 of the same problems if I was struggling with it. If this is the norm with this program for her its past time to switch. We use TT and I LOVE IT. People may complain its too easy but 2 things could be happening, they are buying the wrong level. TT is about a year behind so for a grade level 5th grader you'd want TT6 but use the placement tests to be sure. The 2nd thing that could be happening is, the program makes math easy to understand so the kid flies though it and the parents think its not challenging the kid, math doesn't need to be hard if its taught in a way the child understands. You might find this thread helpful if your worried about your child testing behind if thats an issue (it is for us)

[alpidarkomama]

Another option to consider is breaking MM up in a way that you prefer. <snip> IME, MM is fairly tweakable.

 

:iagree:

 

MM works great for us if we work on two or three concepts at the same time. We usually do one page from wherever we are sequentially, than take another page from elsewhere in the book (i.e. time, money, or measuring). DD melts if she has to do 2 pages of basic computations, but this way we get through the book just fine (most of the time!). :)

[Ummto4]

Working on 3 concepts at the same time with MM works with my DD. She doesn't need a lot of repetition for mastery, and remembers well.

 

With my son, I have to constantly revisit old concepts, even with 3 concepts going on at the same time. So I thought, I might as well get a spiral math program for him. I'm ordering Horizons 4 now, but I will explain concepts a la MM and will add in word problems from MM.

[ByGrace3]

Earlier this year, dd was struggling with MM and I contacted Maria Miller for some suggestions. She suggested adding CLE or Saxon as a spiral review a grade level below. This way, the topics get introduced the MM way (which I want) but then they get the practice of a more spiral program. Another idea we considered was only assigning half the problems the first time through and then adding a couple a day after that to keep it spiraling.

 

I think it comes down to what you want in math. My dd needs more review, but I was not willing to sacrifice the conceptual aspects of MM to get it, so I tweak. You have to decide your goal. You chose MM and SM for a reason, do those reasons still stand? If so, I would change it up, but not abandon. If you have changed your position, switch and be fine with it. :)

[TKDmom]

Thanks for the input everyone. Last night, I printed out placement tests for Saxon and TT. Then I started looking at TT samples online. DD came over and I let her complete a sample lesson, which she thoroughly enjoyed. Then she voluntarily stayed home to do the TT6 placement test while I went to pick up ds from cub scouts. She got the whole test done in the half-hour while I was gone. She's all excited about TT now, and I can practically see the $$ flying out of my wallet. :lol:

 

Oddly enough she adores the Singapore CWPs, and I could see her doing a page of CWP every day in addition to a TT lesson. I think that would address some of the weaknesses in TT's method. I want math to be a happy subject for her. It was my favorite subject through high school, and I hate to see her struggling. I get all stressed about her being "behind" and not understanding everything. Doing TT along with CWP would be a breath of fresh air for both of us.

[TKDmom]

I think it comes down to what you want in math. My dd needs more review, but I was not willing to sacrifice the conceptual aspects of MM to get it, so I tweak. You have to decide your goal. You chose MM and SM for a reason, do those reasons still stand? If so, I would change it up, but not abandon. If you have changed your position, switch and be fine with it. :)

 

Good point. I think it chose Singapore because it appeals to me, but I never struggled in math. I sat down with dh last night and laid out all my concerns for dd in math. His first response? "DD is not the same as you, and she needs to be taught differently than you." :tongue_smilie: Yep.

 

I think I've come to the point where I just want her to like math and to have confidence in her abilities, even if that means not teaching it the "best" way...

[Beth in SW WA]

Doing TT along with CWP would be a breath of fresh air for both of us.

 

That combo is quite effective here.

 

I asked both my dds to list out their favorite subjects in order. They both said TT is their top choice -- above art, science projects & reading. They feel rather clever with TT. For certain types of learners it is highly effective -- especially when used at an accelerated pace. Yes, a bit $pendy but sooooo worth it, imho.

 

I would have your dd do the TT7 placement test before buying level 6. You might be surprised.

 

I suggest you stay very close during the lessons. The program does the teaching but you will need to do the explaining of concepts (which TT is weak on).

[ByGrace3]

I think I've come to the point where I just want her to like math and to have confidence in her abilities, even if that means not teaching it the "best" way...

 

And this is the beauty of homeschooling ;) We get to continually reevaluate and meet our children where they are, based on our ever evolving goals for our children :grouphug:

[Jlynn]

We reluctantly switched from R&S to Saxon last year and love it! He enjoyed R&S, but since it didn't go past 8th grade we needed to find something else and I wanted to switch him after the 7th grade book. He's done very well with Saxon and has a great understanding of mathematical concepts...they do a much better job of explaining the "why's" of math than I was led to believe in researching online.

[Walking-Iris]

I'm going to be switching to Saxon soon---I think it looks great and after having another frustrating day trying to make my "creative language arts loving" kiddo understand math it's time to reevaluate. He's like me---oh so like me.

 

I don't see a lot of mention on wtmforum about the theory of multiple intelligences---but I see them playing out over and over again in our lives.

 

My ds just needs to learn math---just learn it. And I'm thinking Saxon might help. Let him just get it out of the way and then spread his creative wings in other areas.