Spin off: Policies on aggression......

[Joanne]

I began to post the following on another thread, but realized it would be a hijack. I'd like to read some discussion on this.

 

I've recently been in a situation with an institution where "no physical contact" is a rule as I understand it to be in public schools. It doesn't matter if it's self defense, defense of another, etc. If you interact physically, you are wrong and consequences imposed.

 

I told the person to whom I was speaking that I would communicate the policy to my children but I would never require they adopt it personally. I need my kids to know that *I* (and their Dad and Step Dad and I'm assuming their step Mom) respect their right to *fight back*.

 

In this case above, I did accept and agree to consquences for my child (and the other child had similar consequences imposed) because he had a role in the progressive physicality and aggressive/unkind talk.

 

Bullying and aggression (and I've had kids on both sides) can be a situation effecting children life-long.

 

In the situation, and most of the others I've known that involve children physically interacting, *under*supervision is an issue of the children. In the case I've recently dealt with, the Coaches involved allowed children with a known personality conflict to exit the community area together and go out of Coach's eyesight.

 

I want to add that I *also* don't believe in the effectiveness of getting to the bottom of each physical interaction. With some kids around each other frequently, the "story" is to complicated and never limited to *that* event, yk? I've seen that with siblings, neighborhood kids, sports and when I ran the before/after school at a local elementary. DH has seen it on his buses. Sure, some situations are limited to that event, but many are too complicated and nuanced.

 

When I was younger, childless and the mother of a cuddly infant, I was of the mind that aggression in children was always emerging from dysfunction, the parents, something "not right". I also thought it was socially scripted and not organic. I expected to be able to raise 3 completely non violent kids. I'm not of those beliefs anymore.

 

My dd is unable to run and play with a normal speed and gait due to her illness. In certain circumstances, kids can be cruel to her over this. I will *always* support my boys in defending her and the principle of respect/kindness. With coaching and guidelines, but they do have our permssion to defend her.

 

I think that, just like it is for adults, aggressive speech is under responded to. Schools have policies regarding physical interaction but violent, aggressive and hurtful verbal aggression often flies under the radar.

 

I realize that there are many issues involved in this post.

[Kay in Cal]

I think this isn't an easy question, QWIM? In the other thread I would support reasonable physical intervention because someone else had their property stolen or was physically threatened. The "invertentee" (is that a word?) had already indicated by their actions that they were willing to cross the boundary of acceptable behavior, and the boy who responded did so in a minimally invasive way. I would also walk him through some other responses that may have been more effective in this particular case, but that's neither here nor there.

 

Now, I understand the hurt of bullying (agressive words). I was frequently bullied as a child. But I would never support physical violence as a response in this case--why? Because it would teach the lesson that when you get very angry, it is acceptable to use violence to express that anger. Nope, that's not OK. If you were an adult, it WOULD be illegal. I think that there are plenty of ways to defend yourself against verbal attacks, and defend your little sister against verbal attacks, that don't involve hitting. Better to learn them now, because unkindness doesn't stop at 18--and prison starts.

 

I agree that aggressive speech is under responded too (how often I've been the only adult to notice in a youth group setting--simply because I was a victim as a child, and they weren't). But as adults we have to model ways to respond that would be appropriate as an adult: "That is a completely inappropriate thing to say! I don't understand why you choose to be rude and hurtful, but I am not going to keep talking to you!" Walk away. As a kid, tell an adult. NOT responding physically is not the same thing as tolerating or accepting.

[Joanne]

Now, I understand the hurt of bullying (agressive words). I was frequently bullied as a child. But I would never support physical violence as a response in this case--why? Because it would teach the lesson that when you get very angry, it is acceptable to use violence to express that anger. Nope, that's not OK. If you were an adult, it WOULD be illegal. I think that there are plenty of ways to defend yourself against verbal attacks, and defend your little sister against verbal attacks, that don't involve hitting. Better to learn them now, because unkindness doesn't stop at 18--and prison starts.

 

FTR, I didn't say I supported *physical* defense of my daughter for verbal taunting. ;)

[Jugglin'5]

:iagree:

 

Otherwise, I believe we will be raising a generation of kids who will stand by as people are imprisoned or killed unjustly (it has happened elsewhere, think WWII, and not just in Germany either), without ever believing it to be their duty to stand up for the victims of such injustice. Where would the world be without such people? I don't want to raise sheep for children.

[Kay in Cal]

I'm sorry. When I read:

" I will *always* support my boys in defending her and the principle of respect/kindness. "

 

I really thought that mean always. If you won't support physical intervention, then that's not always, right? I have no problem with immediate non-violent intervention. In fact, I would encourage it and insist they stand up for what is right. I'm on your side. I believe all people are called to stand up for justice and speak for the least, the last and the lost. That's a strong part of my faith.

[bkpan]

I am distinguishing "aggressive" from "threatening" of course.

 

I guess that I have to believe that it is the parent's responsibility to model and to teach their dc self-control in these situations. There will be instances throughout life where we must be able to control ourselves, despite the behavior of those around us. I do not believe in violence, with the possible exception of the vulnerable being physically attacked with the need of protection. I would want my sons, certainly, to defend their little sister, to protect her. But, I would want them to do this without aggression, hopefully modeling behavior that the "bully" could respect. If not the bully, at least themselves. It takes a lot of years, and inevitably a lot of strength, to rise above the unkindness of others, but that is the standard I want my kids to shoot for.

 

So, I have to agree with a zero-tolerance policy for physical altercations with kids. Even if one party is defending another, or it is done is self-defense. It is not always fair, but neither is the adult life that our kids are being prepared for. It is painful for a mother's heart, but I believe that our role as parents is to help our dc rise above the injustices in life. They'll be stronger for it. HTH

 

Kim

[Amy in NH]

I agree that abusive verbal interaction is largely ignored by society, and that it is most often the root cause of social and personal strife.

 

I was verbally bullied by classmates in public school. I think that most bullying that occurs in a school situation is verbal, and is largely ignored by staff. And I don't think any of that is changing in spite of all the bullying intervention seminars that have been going on since school shootings became so common.

 

I was verbally mean to my (only sibling) younger sister as a child, which I can see, now, as an adult, in hindsight, how damaging it was to her. My husband (the youngest in his family) was verbally bullied by his older siblings, and still carries the emotional scars. He is especially bitter about his parents allowing the bullying.

 

I do not allow my children to speak unkindly to each other. We have a "no name calling, no telling another person what they are" rule in our home. We do not use words like "stupid" or "shut up". We work on respecting one another, including respecting one anothers' words. If you don't have anything nice to say don't say anything at all. And if you do have something to say, say it in a respectful way. Although they sometimes get frustrated with each other, and everyone needs their own personal space, my kids rarely fight (certainly not nearly as much as I did with my sister, my husband with his siblings, or what I witness out in public with so many families). We do have the occasional blow-out, but my kids are very close to each other. But it did take *a lot* of work on my part, especially when they were younger, to get them to think about what they were saying, to get them to listen to one another, and to get them to use words instead of actions when they were angry. Sometimes I have to intervene, and we all need a reminder sometimes of what the right way is to respond to a situation, but in general I am very happy with the outcome of our no verbal abuse policy, and many people comment on how well behaved my children are and how well they get along.

[mo2]

Well, basically, we don't believe in starting fights. But I don't want my kids to just sit there and take it while someone beats them up. Sometimes fighting back is the only way. This is a complicated subject, and I'm sure I could go on, but I've got to go to work instead.

[Joanne]

So, I have to agree with a zero-tolerance policy for physical altercations with kids. Even if one party is defending another, or it is done is self-defense. It is not always fair, but neither is the adult life that our kids are being prepared for. It is painful for a mother's heart, but I believe that our role as parents is to help our dc rise above the injustices in life. They'll be stronger for it. HTH

 

If my little girl is not free to knee herself freedom from a handsy boy, I'm moving to another country.

 

She won't be stronger if she's made a victim due to zero-tolerance policies.

[Mama Lynx]

:iagree:

 

The first time we did any kind of outside class, my loving, affectionate 5 year old would give the other kids a hug when they did a good job.

 

Yes, I was given quite a talking to about that. That *had* to stop. Not only that, the teacher was *concerned* that he was developing inappropriately. I *hate* the zero touching atmosphere. I *hate* that children are being taught that *any* touching is bad, or weird, and that showing affection means there might be something wrong with you. I could not be a teacher in a ps in the current atmosphere, because little kids need hugs, yes, even in school.

 

I am also of the mind that I teach my boys to not start fights, but if they are in one, I want them to be able to fight back and finish it. If they are threatened or hurt, they are to defend themselves. Verbal attacks, however, are to be defended verbally, or handled by leaving the area.

[newbie]

My niece had this happen to her in public high school. She was continually being bullied by a girl. The girl confronted her one day in the hallway. My niece could not take it anymore, so she pushed her. Unfortunately behind her was a sticky bush.

 

In turn, my niece got suspended, and nothing happened to the bully. I told my niece bravo. Just do your time. I believe the girl did not bully her again. In this scenario, she really needed to stand up for herself, she told her teacher she was being bullied. They did nothing.

 

Bravo niece,

Jeannette