s/o Grandparents thread...

[Aubrey]

If so many of our grandparents quit school for one reason or another, what (if anything) does that say about our current system of education & mandatory min age for dropping out?

[Mama Geek]

That the government is more controlling than they used to be.

[Aubrey]

That the government is more controlling than they used to be.

 

LOL--that's true, but I meant more in terms of education. As we produce more high school graduates, are we producing more educated people?

 

I think about my great-grandfather, who quit around 8th grade to work. Not to play video games or sell drugs. ;) He had more wisdom & common sense & creative ingenuity than anyone I ever met.

 

Then I think about the kids I taught in high school & college...it's not a fair comparison, because I didn't meet grand dad when he was 16 or 18, but...I guess I don't think people change *that* much. :lol:

[Mama Geek]

I think that kids had much more responsibility then. They had to help their families survive. It was expected that they would significantly contribute to the family. I think also at that time there were many more family farms and many more kids per family. I think this makes kids grow up quickly and learn a lot about life. I do know that my mom's parents never finished passed eighth grade. I don't know about my dad's parents.

[Aubrey]

I think that kids had much more responsibility then. They had to help their families survive. It was expected that they would significantly contribute to the family. I think also at that time there were many more family farms and many more kids per family. I think this makes kids grow up quickly and learn a lot about life. I do know that my mom's parents never finished passed eighth grade. I don't know about my dad's parents.

 

Yeah, my grand dad had to run the family farm from 10yo on because his dad got very sick. When his dad recovered, they sold the farm & moved to town, but by then, grand dad had learned to *really* work. He worked multiple odd jobs until deciding that school was sucking up work time. Or something like that.

[Mama Geek]

My dh grew up on a small farm about 80 acres and it was only 2 kids. His dad worked a full time job as well. I have one of his aunts often say that he and his sister were always too busy working and didn't have time to play with their cousins. Dh said they played some, but he really enjoyed following his dad around and working with him. In fact they still really love working together today.

 

Even though we aren't on a farm, we both want to spend time working on things for the family with dd. That is something that we see as integral to her education.

[Mama Geek]

I do hope things have settled down some for you.

[Carpe]

My grandparents died many years ago, but were already disappointed in what schools were producing.

 

My great uncle was 9 before he started school because he couldn't walk that far (very rural area, too poor for a bike or a horse), and then dropped out at 12 to stay home and work the farm after my great-grandfather died. That man was better educated in his 3 years in school than my father was in his 10. And my father was better educated in his 10 years of school than I was in my 16. Not to mention that they had more career options.

 

Personally I notice a difference between what school was like when I was a kid and what it's like now. I didn't think I was that old yet.

[Aubrey]

My dh grew up on a small farm about 80 acres and it was only 2 kids. His dad worked a full time job as well. I have one of his aunts often say that he and his sister were always too busy working and didn't have time to play with their cousins. Dh said they played some, but he really enjoyed following his dad around and working with him. In fact they still really love working together today.

 

Even though we aren't on a farm, we both want to spend time working on things for the family with dd. That is something that we see as integral to her education.

 

What a great story & a great way to put it. The Maxwells say something similar in one of their books--that we're made to work, to be happy when we're working, to LOVE work.

 

I sometimes wish it were as obvious today how to achieve that as it was for our grandparents. Somehow...it's as if schools have come between people & work, & maybe THAT is part of the problem. It's not something I'd thought of.

[Aubrey]

My grandparents died many years ago, but were already disappointed in what schools were producing.

 

My great uncle was 9 before he started school because he couldn't walk that far (very rural area, too poor for a bike or a horse), and then dropped out at 12 to stay home and work the farm after my great-grandfather died. That man was better educated in his 3 years in school than my father was in his 10. And my father was better educated in his 10 years of school than I was in my 16. Not to mention that they had more career options.

 

Personally I notice a difference between what school was like when I was a kid and what it's like now. I didn't think I was that old yet.

 

I know that feeling!

[....]

LOL--that's true, but I meant more in terms of education. As we produce more high school graduates, are we producing more educated people?

 

 

No. There's education...and then there's education.

 

I know this is probably echoing what everyone else has said. Everybody has stories like these.

 

Some of the most successful people in my family don't even have a high school diploma. Both my FIL and MIL stopped going to school in 8th grade. They've owned businesses for decades. My great-grandmother was taken out of school in 3rd grade and that also ran an entire farm. She was up in her 60s still running a farm and she was in charge of a seniors' softball team. :D That lady was awesome.

 

Just from watching my siblings and people around me (and probably myself), I think we're producing people who need things "packaged" for them and they need things to be laid out in a formula. Also, with one of my sisters...she won't try something if she thinks there is an element of risk to it. I've also noticed that my siblings won't learn something on their own, it needs to be presented in class form and if you haven't had a class on something, you don't know what you're talking about. Too much formal education, maybe? :001_huh:

[DawnM]

Because 8th grade in 1995 was like AP 12th grade now!

 

http://grandfather-economic-report.com/1895-test.htm

[Parrothead]

What a great story & a great way to put it. The Maxwells say something similar in one of their books--that we're made to work, to be happy when we're working, to LOVE work.

 

I sometimes wish it were as obvious today how to achieve that as it was for our grandparents. Somehow...it's as if schools have come between people & work, & maybe THAT is part of the problem. It's not something I'd thought of.

I don't think it is is the schools. I think it has a lot to do with the break down of the family, the lack of responsibility we give teens in general, the entitlement mentality, and schools that have no choice but to parent children instead of pursuing excellent academics.

[DawnM]

:iagree:

 

I don't think it is is the schools. I think it has a lot to do with the break down of the family, the lack of responsibility we give teens in general, the entitlement mentality, and schools that have no choice but to parent children instead of pursuing excellent academics.

[Aubrey]

I don't think it is is the schools. I think it has a lot to do with the break down of the family, the lack of responsibility we give teens in general, the entitlement mentality, and schools that have no choice but to parent children instead of pursuing excellent academics.

 

Oh, I don't mean "the schools" in the sense of *blaming* them for existing...I agree that it's much more BECAUSE of the breakdown of the family, but I wonder if...the schools' existence sort of enables that breakdown. Do you see what I mean?

[SweetMissMagnolia]

not sure about father's side...but on mother's side my grandmother graduated high school and did whatever formal education you had to do back then to be an elem teacher.....that was in the 1920-1930s......not sure how far grandfather got in education....

[Nan in Mass]

...Somehow...it's as if schools have come between people & work, & maybe THAT is part of the problem. It's not something I'd thought of.

 

I think there is some truth in this. In my town, if you want to go to college, you take the classes that give you tons of homework. If you don't want to go to college, you can take classes that give less homework and have more time to work, but that keeps you from being able to go to a good college. It seems like in other times, it was possible to both work and do college prep in high school. Perhaps college competition is part of the problem? Or part of the problem is that schools aren't teaching efficiently anymore because they are trying not to stifle creativity, trying to accommodate everyone, have to compete with the media for their students' attention, are trying not to be boring and dull, etc.?

 

Nan

[Photo Ninja]

I think there are several facets to the issue, things that were different years ago that prevent the same accomplishments from happening now.

 

My grandfather finished 8th grade, then went to work. He started out working in a mailroom and ended up as a high ranking executive in the company by the time he retired. He was brilliant, but only had an 8th grade education.

 

But there were differences, so what worked then for him can't happen now. There was only a requirement that students had to go to school until 8th grade (at least that is what he always said). Many students didn't finish high school. Few people went to college because most people didn't need a college diploma. College students were people wanting to be doctors or lawyers or other careers that required the advanced education, and the majority of students didn't need that degree or couldn't afford it. This was also a difficult time economically, and Grandpa needed to work to help his family make ends meet. A high school education was not required to get a job, and a college degree was certainly not required. Employers wanted a responsible, hard worker, and they tended to reward that hard work with a promotion. Employees tended to stay at one job for many years because of the possibility of promotions.

 

Today the government requires that students complete high school, effectively keeping most students out of any serious work force or apprenticeship training until they are at least 18 yo. Most employers require a high school diploma or an equivalent. There is a social attitude and a government belief that most/all students should go to college (not saying I agree with that, but it does exist), so more employers require a college degree. Lower academic standards and abilities in high school grads is probably part of the requirement of a college degree as well. People don't stay with one company for a long time now. Many job-hop based on location or to get a salary increase or simply for a change. Few people can work their way into an executive position from a mail room or other unskilled job position because most jobs require a college degree instead of or as well as on the job experience.

 

So government regulations is absolutely a factor, but society has a different view of what diplomas are needed, and that is reflected in job prerequisites. I don't know whether the government regulations affected society's perceptions or if it was the other way around, but while young people have the same capabilities as they had a couple generations ago, they are not allowed to exercise those abilities or desires. They are limited because of governmental requirements. I also wonder if there is a window of opportunity when someone is a teen, when they are wanting to work toward and achieve goals, but since they are not allowed (for the most part), that gets squashed and ends up withering somewhat as they keep plodding along with the same old daily life just because the government says they have to. (I know I am speaking in generalities here.)

 

Of course, many of these government regulations and/or societal attitudes may have been pushed by adults who had to go to work instead of finish high school. Perhaps they saw that as something they didn't want other young people to have to do, resulting in increased governmental regulations. They may have seen the elimination of that options as in the best interest of young people. Just a thought.

[LMD]

My dh grew up on a small farm about 80 acres and it was only 2 kids. His dad worked a full time job as well. I have one of his aunts often say that he and his sister were always too busy working and didn't have time to play with their cousins. Dh said they played some, but he really enjoyed following his dad around and working with him. In fact they still really love working together today.

 

Even though we aren't on a farm, we both want to spend time working on things for the family with dd. That is something that we see as integral to her education.

 

yep - here too. DH is adamant that the boys especially need work and responsibility to thrive. We're not on a farm, but DH has just about turned our suburban block into one... :D

 

I love what you said Pencil Pusher about loving to work.