Need advice on maturity level-vs- mathematical level

[Country Girl]

We just started our school year last week and I'm already questioning my choice for math. Last year DS was in 4th grade and did Saxon 87 and LOF pre-Algebra. That was our first year with Saxon, and overall, I think it was a good fit...... we plan on continuing with it this year along with LOF Algebra. However, I'm second guessing myself on what Saxon book he should be doing. Last year he did quite well on the tests on 87, but would do poorly on the daily work. I completely believe it was a maturity issue (sloppy work, poorly organized, careless computational errors, frustration that would cause mental melt-downs, lack of confidence as the year progressed, etc. ) and not a math issue, as he was able to demonstrate understanding of the material on the tests and when we would go over the material together. So while he is likely ready for the Algebra 1 book mathematically, I had planned on having him do Algebra 1/2 this year to try to give him a chance for his maturity level to catch up with his mathematical ability. However, one week into our school year and he is complaning how there is nothing new in his math, it is too easy, etc. I explained to him that the beginning of the math books are always this way as they are meant as a review to get you back up to speed after summer break. He understands this, and also understands my reasoning behind trying to give him a year for his maturity level to even out a bit with his math level, and is okay with sticking it out through Alg. 1/2. He knows how important having a good foundation in Algebra is to understanding higher maths and he wants to make sure he gets it right the first time around and doesn't just try to hurry through it all. But now I'm wondering if maybe I'm making a mistake and should let him go onto the Algebra 1 book. I was even thinking of possibly having him do half a lesson a day so he could spend more time on some of the maturity issues that need to be addressed (neat work, organized, etc) but still encountering new material. Strangely though, he isn't big on this idea. I think he feels like it would be some sort of cop out to only do half a math lesson a day. So I just thought I'd come here and seek advice on how you would handle this discrepency between maturity and understanding.

 

Thanks!

[boscopup]

That was our first year with Saxon, and overall, I think it was a good fit......

<snip>

Last year he did quite well on the tests on 87, but would do poorly on the daily work. I completely believe it was a maturity issue (sloppy work, poorly organized, careless computational errors, frustration that would cause mental melt-downs, lack of confidence as the year progressed, etc. )

 

 

Are you sure Saxon was a good fit? It sounds like maybe it wasn't. Saxon is awful for my AL. He does better with presenting the topic, doing problems from that topic, and moving on, with occasional review. He does NOT do well with the incremental nature of Saxon. Neither do I. It drove me insane just looking at it. :tongue_smilie:

 

I wonder if switching to a completely different pre-algebra might be a good idea? Then maybe you could see if it's truly a maturity problem (which it very well may be) or if it's just a bad fit with the program. Or if he's ready for algebra, pick a different program that isn't divided into specific daily lessons, and then go at "half pace" like you were thinking about. I believe regular textbooks usually aren't broken into daily lessons, right?

 

(and take everything I say with a huge grain of salt... we're not quite to the pre-algebra stage yet!)

[PeterPan]

Well messiness, computation, and concepts are different things. Messiness is common to the age, at least it was for us at that age. We did a lot of our work at that age (and actually still do) on a whiteboard. He's having to do MORE written math than most kids his age and work that requires more precision. Notice the BJU doesn't switch from workbooks to written work till 5th grade. So there's a certain sense in which the level of written precision may be maxing his ability.

 

On the computation, well have you looked at something fun but different like single or double digit 24? Amazon carries it. You might be able to get some fun competition between your two kids and have it help both. :)

 

On the conceptual, well I would think you'd want to bump him up to the saxon algebra and be done with it. I don't see a year loss for something that isn't going broader. It would be one thing to repeat pre-algebra by using more challenging materials (dolciani, aops, etc.). You really could go either way, either repeating with a more challenging book (my preference) or moving on to algebra 1.

 

Have you tried any of the Math Olympiad stuff from AoPS on him yet?

Edited August 21, 2011 by OhElizabeth

[Crimson Wife]

I wonder if switching to a completely different pre-algebra might be a good idea? Then maybe you could see if it's truly a maturity problem (which it very well may be) or if it's just a bad fit with the program.

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

I would try something like AOPS Pre-Algebra or Singapore Discovering Math 1 with the workbook. Both of those would be challenging for a bright kid but have less of an overly repetitious flavor than Saxon.

[regentrude]

I second (third?) the recommendation to try a different math program. For my kids, Saxon was painful.

AoPS has a new a pre-algebra book. Judging by what I have seen from the other books, AoPS goes way beyond the scope of a traditional text and might be a good way to cement pre-algebra while at the same time introducing material he has not seen in Saxon. You might want to check it out. Look at the post-test to see if he has mastered everything they cover - all the other books I have seen go way beyond the traditional texts.

[EKS]

I agree with the other posters who are suggesting that you look at a different program for him.

 

My younger son will be having a second go at prealgebra using the AoPS book. I think it will be just the thing for him.

 

My older son started algebra when he was in 5th grade. Not only was he young, he also has some learning disabilities that make writing difficult. He did well with Jacobs Algebra that year (we only did half of the text), but he had major problems writing things out. The next year I had him go through the first half of the book again and also the second half and things were much better. So, to answer your question, yes, maturity is important, particularly with regard to the housekeeping aspects of math (which get more intense as you move up).

 

If I had it to do over again with the older one, and the text was available, I would have had him do AoPS Prealgebra before starting algebra (and I would use the AoPS series/courses all the way through).

[catz]

I agree with other comments to try another curriculum perhaps.

 

That said, we went from Singapore 6B to Singapore NEM with my oldest last year. It was TOUGH! Some days we only did a couple problems, but we stuck it out and things were going well by spring. Thinking of switching to AoPS Algebra this year (covered pre-alg/early alg topics in NEM). Still debating that. My son actually wants to stay with NEM now! :tongue_smilie:

[Country Girl]

Thank you everyone for the feedback, but I realized I left out some information in my original post that has a large bearing on my question..... our current location and available resources. I think the AOPS pre-algebra book would be a great solution to our situation, but unfortunately, logistically it is not an option. I had hoped that when my dh was in the States a month ago that the book would be released in time for him to bring it back to China with him, but that didn't happen. So I need to figure out our best option based on the materials we have available to us, which are Saxon 1/2, Saxon Algebra 1, Lial's BCM, and possible online sources. Does anyone have a suggestion for an online resource that we could use to redo pre-algebra but at a deeper level, something similar to AOPS?

 

 

Additonally, one of the reasons I thought Saxon was a good fit was because he doesn't like doing an entire problem set of the same type of problems everyday (he says it is boring).... he likes the variety in the Saxon problem sets. He also gets the new concepts easily, but when we were using BJU (we used it for 1-5 before switching to Saxon 87) he sometimes had problems remembering exactly how to do something when encountered several chapters later. The constant review in Saxon seemed to help by keeping the ideas fresh in his mind. It wasn't that he needed the practice to understand the concepts, it just helped so that he didn't need to be reminded later on how to do something he had seemingly mastered previously. However, I can see where this may not be necessary now that we are entering into algebraic concepts since they seem to build more upon each other and incorporate many skills within one problem. I really thought we were set with Saxon, but now I'm second guessing myself.

 

Thanks for all of the feedback and discussion so far, I'd really appreciate any additional comments and suggestions.

[PeterPan]

I figured you had something like that going on. Have you looked at Alcumus (the free section of the AoPS website)? Again, I still think you could move on to the Saxon Algebra 1. There's no crime in doing that and going back to the precursor AoPS books later. If he has that bent, he'll still find them fun and worthwhile. The main issue is whether he'll get used to a certain thought process and not want to step up later. That just depends on the kid.

 

There are free texts you can download through this site http://phil4.com/home and he also offers online classes. Online classes might actually be a good option for you. Derek Owens' stuff would work great for your situation. http://derekowens.com/course_info_algebra1.php At this link he has his online class which now uses a downloadable workbook and no text at all. Haven't used it myself, but I keep looking at his stuff. If you surf around there, he has extensive samples. Under the pre-algebra he actually has uploaded ALL the video lessons, so you can see his teaching style for free. I'm not saying you need his pre-algebra, just that it had helpful samples.

[acurtis75]

My daughter has the same maturity issues and we've been working on them but I also started incorporating www.khanacademy.com on some days as a fun alternate to work on skills without so much paper. We still do the paper work everyday just a smaller amount but I have been making her do neater work and to check her own work. Then I have her do some on the computer. Interestingly, she rarely has computation errors on the computer where it's all done in her head. I think she's getting bored and distracted on worksheets. I can't bring myself to eliminate the paper all-together but I'm considering it character and neatness training instead of just math.:001_smile:

 

Just this week my daughter had me thinking I was pushing her to hard when her first day of double digit by double digit multiplication was torture for both of us. She was distracted, unfocused, emotional because it was "hard", and basically forced me to sit with her and re-explain every problem. Since we're working 2 1/2 levels above grade level I was mentally making plans to slow down. The next day when she had an incentive to finish quickly (friend waiting to play with her) she did so AND did it all in her head. She told me it took too long to write out the steps when she already knows the answer.

[Country Girl]

I figured you had something like that going on. Have you looked at Alcumus (the free section of the AoPS website)? Again, I still think you could move on to the Saxon Algebra 1. There's no crime in doing that and going back to the precursor AoPS books later. If he has that bent, he'll still find them fun and worthwhile. The main issue is whether he'll get used to a certain thought process and not want to step up later. That just depends on the kid.

 

There are free texts you can download through this site http://phil4.com/home and he also offers online classes. Online classes might actually be a good option for you. Derek Owens' stuff would work great for your situation. http://derekowens.com/course_info_algebra1.php At this link he has his online class which now uses a downloadable workbook and no text at all. Haven't used it myself, but I keep looking at his stuff. If you surf around there, he has extensive samples. Under the pre-algebra he actually has uploaded ALL the video lessons, so you can see his teaching style for free. I'm not saying you need his pre-algebra, just that it had helpful samples.

 

Elizabeth,

Thank you so much for pointing me to these resources. I've only quickly looked at them, but I like what I see so far. I'm going to try to find some time this weekend to take a better look at them. Also, thanks for the reminder that I can always move forward with the Alg. 1 and then go deeper later by using the AOPS materials.

Thanks!

[Country Girl]

My daughter has the same maturity issues and we've been working on them but I also started incorporating www.khanacademy.com on some days as a fun alternate to work on skills without so much paper. We still do the paper work everyday just a smaller amount but I have been making her do neater work and to check her own work. Then I have her do some on the computer. Interestingly, she rarely has computation errors on the computer where it's all done in her head. I think she's getting bored and distracted on worksheets. I can't bring myself to eliminate the paper all-together but I'm considering it character and neatness training instead of just math.:001_smile:

 

Just this week my daughter had me thinking I was pushing her to hard when her first day of double digit by double digit multiplication was torture for both of us. She was distracted, unfocused, emotional because it was "hard", and basically forced me to sit with her and re-explain every problem. Since we're working 2 1/2 levels above grade level I was mentally making plans to slow down. The next day when she had an incentive to finish quickly (friend waiting to play with her) she did so AND did it all in her head. She told me it took too long to write out the steps when she already knows the answer.

 

It definitely sounds like our kids are similar. I'm going to check out the link you posted for the Khan Academy and see if it is something that might work for us as well.

 

Thanks!

[Mrs Ives]

I'm on my second math geek now, a 13yo boy who's doing Trigonometry from time to time over the summer. After moving his older brother through math according to his ability and having him test out of Calculus by 14, I decided to do math differently with this kid.

 

1) We homeschool year-round, so we skip the review chapters in every book. The review chapters are there to fill in the gaps for those kids who didn't actually learn everything the previous year, &/or forgot some things over the summer. Since we don't move on until he gets 90% or better scores on the tests, he doesn't need review.

 

2) We skip 7th & 8th grade math and go straight to Algebra. 7th & 8th grade math consists of review of previous material, other applications of existing skills (i.e. story problems about things I don't care about), and the introduction of Algebra concepts that are going to be repeated in the real Algebra class. These books are time wasters for kids who are gifted in math. A good argument can be made for also skipping 6th grade math, but that only works if your 5th grade math text wasn't dumbed down, and you really can't count on that any more.

 

3) Don't waste your time & money on pre-Algebra for gifted kids. They are designed for kids who struggle with math and are going to need 2 years to learn Algebra. I do have one non-math geek who needed 2 years for Algebra, but I just moved slower through the regular Algebra book.

 

4) Just because a book is designed for 1 school year, it doesn't mean you have to pace your kids that way. As a matter of fact, the public schools never even finish the textbooks. Even way back in my day (when we had to chisel our work on the cave wall or scratch it on bear skins), we never did every chapter of any of the textbooks in any of the subjects.

 

In addition to skipping the review chapters, we only do the odd-numbered problems, and occasionally my son will ask to skip more problems if a particular section got carried away with practice problems and I usually agree. If my son doesn't get a 90% on the chapter test then he gets some more help in the problem areas, does the even-numbered problems, and tries the test again. He also only does 10 - 20 problems a day, depending on how complicated they are. I try to set it so that he works for about 1/2 hour a day. For my older kid it could take all day if he was stubborn and refused to do it - fortunately this kid would just as soon get the work done and go outside to play. We still end up finishing a full course every year. (I'm grateful that my kid doesn't go to public school where he would be stuck with 2-3 hours worth of class time & homework a day and he still wouldn't finish a whole book.)

 

The goal should be to understand the math that's being taught, which I define as getting 90% on the test. The fact that my kids get more work if they don't get 90% on the test motivates them to be careful about the quality of their work - at least on the tests. Review of material they already know, and working 30 problems when they understand how to do something after 10 problems will not get them to the competency goal, so we ignore what other people do with their textbooks and use them the way that works best for us.

 

What we use for math:

 

K-6th Grade:

 

Spectrum Math workbooks. They have a good mix of skill building problems and word problems so that you can see what you can do with the new skills. They stick to the basics and skip the touch-feely time-wasters that fill most of the current textbooks. They're set up as daily lessons so I don't have to guess how much a regular kid usually does per day. When you're done with the 6th grade workbook you're ready for Algebra. And, very important for gifted kids working way ahead of their writing abilities, you don't have to copy the problems from the textbook. And, important for me, they're only $10 per grade level from Amazon, and a workbook means that all of their math papers are located in a single spot so it's easy to file away in case the government decides to check up on us.

 

Algebra through Calculus:

 

Addison-Wesley textbooks by Margaret Lial. We also use video lessons from khanacademy.org & Thinkwell when needed, which is almost never for my math geeks and frequently for my non-math geek. You can also buy lesson videos that are tied to the textbook, but since I'm too cheap to buy new books I've only the CDs for a couple of the textbooks that we have. The textbooks are so good that I only have to actually tutor about once every 2-3 chapters and then it's only for a single concept. Which is good because I don't know anything about Calculus, and I'm just now getting around to learning Trigonometry.

 

****

Since in your situation you've already bought Saxon 1/2, what I'd suggest that you do is skip ahead in the book until you get to something your kid doesn't already know. Then skip about half of the problems that are review in each lesson but have him do all of the new stuff. Keep to the one lesson a day pacing and don't worry about the fact that he's finishing up really fast every day. Being really good at something and thus being able to do it quickly shouldn't be punished by giving him more work. Unneeded review is just busy-work that will kill any love of math that might be there. You may even find that his need for maturity comes much faster once he's not bored with the repetition. Don't be surprised if it takes even up to an entire school year to figure out what kind of pacing works best for your kid and for you. Don't forget, it's just as bad for you to get burned out as it is for him, and it's frustrating and discouraging for you to have to battle everyday to get your kid to do his work. Learn it, practice it, then stop.

 

My son uses his extra time reading, building stuff, and playing outside. I use the extra time to make jewelry to sell. We're both much happier now. I even sneak in lots of historical fiction by leaving books on the dining room table for him to read, then I count that towards history. (Shhh don't tell anyone, but we're one of those loser families that reads while they eat instead of building family time. We also spend a ridiculous amount of time chattering with each other about what we're reading and thinking when we're going about our business during the rest of the day, so it works for us.)

[Just-a-mom]

I'm wondering if he just gets tired of writing all those problems out. Usually at his age they're still doing workbook pages with a place to write the answers right on the page.

 

I'm assuming this is the big difference between his current tests and his current daily work. Is that a correct assumption? If so, I wonder if it would be enough of a difference to make him not be able to keep it neat. Clearly, he likes a lot of things about your current plan.

[Mandy in TN]

I love Saxon 54-87, but after that I move on. Actually, the little man just used Saxon until halfway through 76. Anyway, my ds also liked Saxon because of all the different types of problems. However, he doesn't seem to mind not using Saxon. He can work on many different types of problems on the Khan Academy website. If you use Khan, definitely set up an account, so that your son can earn badges and see his progress.

 

Also, in one of the Khan Academy videos, Sal Khan reference an online Alg book from here. I know absolutely nothing about this, but I thought I would throw it out there as another option.

 

HTH-

Mandy