PeterPan Posted August 19, 2011 Share Posted August 19, 2011 I keep walking up to this with my dd, who is resistant to top-down instruction and extremely creative or productive when given more freedom, but I keep going back to my own penchant for neatness: checklists, textbooks, sequences, order. By upper grades I mean junior high and up. So if this is what you do, can you tell me about it? I know what I'm thinking, but I'd like to hear more of the stories about how *you* make it practical. For instance, I've always given her extreme freedom with history. I basically throw stuff at her and get out of the way, which is the only safe thing for a non-history lover to do in this house, lol. But for math, editing, things that *need* to get done, I have more flexibility than what I've been employing. She HATES prescribed school. I've wondered if I just took all the things I have in the basket and said pick something and keep working, where that would get us. It wouldn't be as neat and tidy as the little spreadsheets with 2 days of grammar, 2 days of editing, but stuff would get done. So let's talk about this! :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onaclairadeluna Posted August 19, 2011 Share Posted August 19, 2011 So let's talk about this! :) Oh, this is my favorite topic. I find the balance between prescribed schooling and child led learning to be the most important aspect of our homeschool. We have discussions on what we are going to do and decide it on almost a consensus basis. I can't call what we do child led since I definitely have input (and veto power for things that are non negotiable) but it is not top down either. Most of our discussions usually happen over the summer when we decide what we are going to do for the year. Some things I let him decide on his own (Math for example, I can just say "What book(s) am I going to get you dear?" and it really gets done. For other less loved subjects we look at the materials together until we find something we both like. The latest thing I am excited about is Kilgallon. I should him the HS Grammar samples and he not only thought they were OK but he actually enjoyed them. Wow and whew. Once we decide on things I let him decide on the schedule. Last year we actually made a real schedule (it didn't get followed but it wasn't a big deal, really it was just a way to lay out our goals on paper for time management). This year we may not make a schedule at all. If it looks like he needs to do more of a subject I tell him (ie "you haven't been working on X lately") He inevitably tells me I am right and gets on track. He is really quite agreeable and flexible, which is odd because he is not generally an agreeable and flexible kid. I think I have won his complete trust and so he goes along with what I want almost all the time. I think I have had one conflict with him in the past year. He was very upset by the word "skiing" and did not want to write it. If he were 7, I probably would have let it go but at 13 I think you can learn to just deal. He seriously did not want to write down the word. This is the kind of thing I had to deal with on a daily basis when he was little. It is such a relief to have it happen only once a year. The end of the tragedy of the spelling of the "word that shall not be named" was that he had to write the word down. I pulled the "look at all the things I do for you" card. I am telling him the one thing I ask from him is that he be more flexible. A real "child led" person would not have forced her child to do such an uncomfortable thing. Teaching my son to be more flexible is my primary goal for his education. I do this partially by modeling flexibility and partially by insisting on it. It has been quite a balancing act. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted August 19, 2011 Author Share Posted August 19, 2011 Can I just tell you you just did my soul a world of good? That's EXACTLY what I was needing. I need to go clean, but I'll come back after I've chewed on this. You've hit exactly on the struggles we have: we need a plan and a schedule at least to know if our ideas are reasonable, but she needs a lot more flex in implementing in. She literally just hits little *stops* mentally when she has one idea and I'm trying to direct into another. And I think she'd do the same things happily if I gave her more choice. I've also had it told me that I made her this way and made her opinionated (by giving her choice previous years), and that if I'd JUST BUCKLE DOWN AND MAKE HER DO IT MY WAY, all would be well. It ain't. ;) Well off to clean. Back later. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted August 19, 2011 Share Posted August 19, 2011 (edited) Not sure if this is what you are looking for, but here is how it works with my kids: they get all their materials, textbooks, problem assignments, english reading books etc PLUS a prescribed time period for which they have to "do school". (4.5 hours/day for 12 y/o DD, 6 hours for 14 y/o DD). Then I let them lose. All they have to do is keep track of what they work on and for how long in their planners; I transfer the information to a computer spreadsheet. For DD who thrives on schedules, I have losely broken down the books into weekly chunks, so she has a rough idea how to pace herself. But she does not HAVE to adhere to the schedule. Often, we go through phases where they are into one or two things. DD might have a math phase and work on math for two hours, but skimp on English. As long as it averages out over the weeks, that is fine. If it gets very lopsided, I remind that we have neglected xyz and need to work on that some more. The only thing where I must remind more often is French which she tends to put off - but for a foreign language, continuity is important, so I insist on regular work. I am blessed with motivated students. DD is extremely ambitious and WANTS to do the work; it is rare that she gets distracted (usually when she takes a break on the computer, we have to eliminate this distraction). So I can completely trust her that she does all the work she claims. I can imagine that this may not work with every student. This makes schooling rather relaxed in our house. I do not need lesson plans; the kids know where they let off, and resume work there the next time. ETA: when I mention assignments: I carefully select which chemistry or physics problems DD ahs to do for homework, because I do not want busywork, but enough good problems to cement each concept. Those are non-negotiable. I do not assign fixed topics for writing assignments; we discuss possibilities, but the kids choose their own topics to write on. I may stipulate that an essay must be written about the Iliad, but DD will choose which aspect she wants to address. DS may have to write a report about something medieval, but HE would be specifically choosing the crusades for his semester paper. Edited August 19, 2011 by regentrude Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8filltheheart Posted August 19, 2011 Share Posted August 19, 2011 I'm not sure if this is what you are looking for, but I allowed my 7th grader to select her focus of study this yr (history and lit.....and science is a given at our house.) She chose Where the Brook and River meet for us to revolve our yr around. It is a study based on Anne of Green Gables. We are not using it as suggested and I spent hrs altering titles, but she is really into it. It includes lots of fine arts projects as well as handicrafts. I have a loom that was my grandfathers and we pulled it out of the attic, cleaned it up, and she is designing a small blanket. We are combining history from Canada with Britian. We are also integrating many cultural/social issues such as the exploitation of orphans. She is, for a reason unbeknownst to me, sensitive to upsetting scenes when reading that don't bother her as much in viewing. So instead of reading Oliver Twist or Great Expectations, we watched them this week and next week are watching American Experience: The Orphan Train. (and we have learned some sad facts such as the SCPA was more interested in assisting orphans than other humane societies....well, at least in Canada.) But, even though we are focusing on what interests her the large picture, what is done daily is still controlled by me and my expectations for her output remain unchanged from what I view her capable of. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted August 20, 2011 Author Share Posted August 20, 2011 (edited) Onaclairadeluna, I'm rereading your post and really trying to take some time here, now that things have settled down, guests are in, and everyone has gone to bed. First I want to jump to the end of your post and discuss this flexibility thing. I have not had her evaluated yet (neuropsych), but I have no reason (not at all) to suspect a spectrum disorder, which is where I normally think of inflexibility. But there really is, as you say, this inflexibility to her. And whether the inflexibility is wiring, or whether it's simply the grand luck of most kids (for instance 8's dd doing WB&RM, which to me seems like a fine program but which she turned her nose up at, something I can't understand) to generally find their thought process IS the dominant method used, I don't know. I've tried for years to do the "I schedule, you do it, NOW" kind of thing. I'm very nice, but I was told to be more diligent to fix the problem and have tried. I'm done trying. And, as you say, she has a strange sort of flexibility WHEN YOU WORK WITH HER in the way she needs. Transitions, impulsivity, that is the kind of stuff the OT looked at. But all I'm responding to is *can* she be flexible when she's worked with well, and the answer is yes. And I think you're right on that, that the way I was told not to work with her is in fact what she needs in order to blossom. I've just been afraid to. Now about your "look at all the things I do for you, can't you do this for me" card. What a hoot, lol. We have something similar and it's the "I'd do ANYTHING for you and I'm trying so hard, can't you just do this for me and be a little easier?!?" thing. And I find it happening too much. It's like being lost in a city looking for roads. You KNOW you're so close to the road, and you just need a little turn to help you find it. I don't think most of what we are doing or have planned is off, but we just need a little tweak in HOW we're doing it. Scheduling. I utterly identify with your comments on scheduling as a reality check. Definitely need that. It sounds like you had a bit more structure or guidance to that last year and more freedom this year as he got the ropes of how to make it happen for himself. Am I reading that change/growth correctly? I've definitely been concerned about what would happen if I didn't guide that AT ALL. I mean I could totally see her finishing some things and coming to the end being pinched on others. But a growth in self-scheduling, that would be good. And the freedom to create your own comfortable work patterns, that's good. You're describing what I was thinking. It's just you've done it, where mine is only an idea in the head. BTW, how old is your ds? My dd has really sprouted in the last few months, really come into her own as a sentient human being, and I actually think she could do these things now. I just needed those tips on how to get there without making a muddle of it. She's NOT a fast processor. Some people who are doing this have kids who fly through material. Well that's no good for us. Everything takes her longer. She also doesn't transition well between subjects. I've thought for instance that if I took the 8 things I wanted to do with her (for the course of a year) and let her pick *1/2* to do now, she'd do much better. And you're right, I think the balance I was looking for is a consensus approach (her input, my veto), not so much child-led. I had walked up to child-led, and I think, for us at least, that probably wouldn't have a good outcome. When you throw a toddler and constant distraction in the mix and a distractible teen, a freedom-driven approach doesn't work. In fact, my el #1 goal for the year, my task, my job (rolling eyes, sigh) is to keep the toddler AWAY from dd. That was her #1 request. On the math, I am a little reluctant to let her chose, but I think that's only because I got numerous, not-entirely satisfactory options. If I could narrow it down to two myself, lol, I'd be happy to let her chose. As is, she actually pretty much likes all the options and is content to do any of them, ironically enough. Now just out of the blue, what are you doing for science? I'll go do a board search and read your posts to learn more, but I'd still love for you to tell me. And anything more you want to tell me will be intensely fascinating. You're saying exactly what I needed to hear. Thank you exceedingly. :) PS. Just for my edification, could you describe the typical way your ds scheduled himself or what a typical week was like last year and how it is looking for this year? :) Edited August 20, 2011 by OhElizabeth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted August 20, 2011 Author Share Posted August 20, 2011 Regentrude, I'm fascinated to read about how your scheduling works for your children. Thank you for taking the time to respond! I see what you're saying about how their motivation allows them to take the things you've put before them and work. What a joy! I think that would have been a great amount of freedom for ME as a learner. My dd is totally different, and honestly it has been hard for me to understand why. I think it's that "top-down" thing I mentioned. She's quite intelligent, clearly gifted, but she's just not at all like your kids. I've read some other posts by people describing kids like yours, so clearly it's just her. If I could understand her better and capture your kids' enthusiasm in her, using a method that makes HER light up, then I'd be onto something. Sometimes I get it, sometimes I don't. I'll have to ponder that. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted August 20, 2011 Author Share Posted August 20, 2011 8--I'm thinking about this. As you say, that wasn't exactly what I was looking for. For instance I have very specific things I have her doing for skills, and I need those things done somehow, in a way that works with her. I showed her WB&RM this evening, and she said it was too driven by the lit and that it's for lit people. I thought that was curious, since to me it looks FABULOUS. But I think, if I piece together what you're saying and what she's saying, that the real issue is that when you find the thing that DOES act as a connector of information in their brain for them, you can run with that and let everything else flow. THAT makes a lot of sense, and it's not really a direction I had thought to steer her. There's a totally legitimate sense in which a lot of what we need to do (those things you require that you talked about) could absolutely flow from say her history studies, rather than being from just workbooks I find here and there. That would definitely be a different approach and something I need to ponder. I haven't done it to this point because for right now a workbook for certain things makes those subjects easier and more systematic. But there I go with the old sequential thinking again, lol. This is a child who isn't systematic and ISN'T sequential, lol. But thanks, I'm going to ponder this idea of whether my assignments and guided tasks are as tightly drawn from her interests and subject studies as they could be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onaclairadeluna Posted August 20, 2011 Share Posted August 20, 2011 I think it is so cool how differently people work child led learning into their homeschool environment. It has to work for both mom and kid and there are many different ways to do it. First I want to jump to the end of your post and discuss this flexibility thing. I have not had her evaluated yet (neuropsych), but I have no reason (not at all) to suspect a spectrum disorder, which is where I normally think of inflexibility. But there really is, as you say, this inflexibility to her. I actually suspected a spectrum issue when he was young but was told he wasn't because of how strongly empathetic he is. This is one of those issues that I am not sure if is a GT thing or an undiagnosed other LD thing but it has been a thing. Though it is (thankfully) becoming less of a thing. It sounds like you had a bit more structure or guidance to that last year and more freedom this year as he got the ropes of how to make it happen for himself. Am I reading that change/growth correctly? I am not sure. I think I ebb and flow with structure. In some ways I have added more as he has gotten older. But I do back off when he gets the hang of things. It probably depends on the subject. There definitely has been growth but as he grows I raise the bar and expect more BTW, how old is your ds? My dd has really sprouted in the last few months, really come into her own as a sentient human being, and I actually think she could do these things now. I just needed those tips on how to get there without making a muddle of it. She's NOT a fast processor. Some people who are doing this have kids who fly through material. Well that's no good for us. Everything takes her longer. She also doesn't transition well between subjects. I've thought for instance that if I took the 8 things I wanted to do with her (for the course of a year) and let her pick *1/2* to do now, she'd do much better. He's 13. My son is not fast either. He also has this "his eyes are bigger than his stomach" syndrome. When he was very young I toyed with more child led learning. This led to my son picking enormous projects that he could not even come close to completing in 8 years. Lots of frustration. So I learned and adapted and took the reins And you're right, I think the balance I was looking for is a consensus approach (her input, my veto), not so much child-led. I had walked up to child-led, and I think, for us at least, that probably wouldn't have a good outcome. When you throw a toddler and constant distraction in the mix and a distractible teen, a freedom-driven approach doesn't work. In fact, my el #1 goal for the year, my task, my job (rolling eyes, sigh) is to keep the toddler AWAY from dd. That was her #1 request. How anyone gets anything done with a toddler in the house is a mystery to me. My daughter is 6 and that age is just a blur. Now just out of the blue, what are you doing for science? I'll go do a board search and read your posts to learn more, but I'd still love for you to tell me. And anything more you want to tell me will be intensely fascinating. You're saying exactly what I needed to hear. Thank you exceedingly. :) PS. Just for my edification, could you describe the typical way your ds scheduled himself or what a typical week was like last year and how it is looking for this year? :) Well goodness, I am pretty sure I can't live up to this but I really appreciate the companionship. I am certainly no expert. Just muddling through myself. I have never been completely satisfied with what we are doing for Science. This past year he worked out of the book "The Cosmos" and listened to the TTC lectures by Fillipenko. Next year the plan is Bio. He reads, watched videos, works out of the text and we discuss. The thing I like about what we are doing with Science is I am having him write, write and write and since it is high interest he doesn't complain. What I don't like is it doesn't feel "sciencey" enough (for lack of a better term). I'd like an AOPS for science. A typical week? I am not sure if it has changed much from this year to last. As a matter of fact I am not even sure how much it has changed from last week to this week. I am not strong on the organizational skills but we do get things done. In the morning DS works on math, 2hrs usually. Sometimes I steal him away to go on a walk with me or (when I am motivated) a jog. DH sometimes goes to work later so he watches my 6 year old when this happens. DHs schedule is not regular so ours isn't either. I can't get as much done when he's at home. I just can't. When DS works on math I work with my daughter. DS runs around next (Play). Inevitably. Movement helps him. It's like therapy. When he doesn't run he gets emotional. I say "What are you going to do next?" (actually I might say this at any point in the day, he works and takes breaks and if it looks like he needs to do something else I nudge.) He grabs either a history or science book and reads and writes. Some days if he's not feeling well (allergies), he'll ask for a TTC lecture. At some point I say let's do X. X usually involves language arts. I throw things at him and hope something will stick. I work much closer with him in this area because it is where he has LDs. I check in him with other things but for LA he gets my full attention. Luckily my daughter is excellent at entertaining herself. She is an artist and will draw for an hour on her own. Later in the day he will work on Spanish. Most days as he feels like it, I would say probably 4 days a week. Usually every day he practices clarinet. Sometimes we have even done work at night. We have read and discussed books. We haven't done this lately. I am up later night with my daughter reading to her and getting read too. I should do that again. It was really a nice thing to do. I am notoriously bad at following recipes. I am, however, a pretty decent cook. It is kind of like this in my homeschool. I give my kids "a little of this" and "a little of that". It works pretty well and yet it is sometimes difficult to put down on a page. I really love list makers because it is so easy to see and follow what they are doing. I am strongly on the intuitive side. I get a feeling and I do it. I have seen a ton of growth in DS over the past year, both academically and emotionally. 8fill was saying (in another thread) that a ton of growth happens between 13 and 15. Gotta love maturity. I appreciate this topic and I love hearing your thoughts on it as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted August 20, 2011 Author Share Posted August 20, 2011 Hey Onaclaira, I'm back! When you said back on 9 of 2010 that you had given him high school literature to read and were just then, at age 12, starting to discuss and do some basic literary analysis, did you mean you gave him high school TEXTS or books? Mercy, did that even make sense? I was just curious, as you're on the cusp of something I've been pondering. Or I'm on the cusp of something you've already done pondered and figured out. :) I LOVED reading how this works out for you day-to-day. I LOVED your way of TALKING about things on your jogs. But if you do that, do you then require those to turn into writings? Or are they done at that point? I thought you said they were more like oral pre-writes. Well I'm getting tired. You've given me a ton to think about, and I just wanna come up with more questions to keep picking your brain!! :) Oh, and the flaming cats, that was just too much, lol! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corraleno Posted August 20, 2011 Share Posted August 20, 2011 Teaching my son to be more flexible is my primary goal for his education. I do this partially by modeling flexibility and partially by insisting on it. It has been quite a balancing act. First I want to jump to the end of your post and discuss this flexibility thing. I have not had her evaluated yet (neuropsych), but I have no reason (not at all) to suspect a spectrum disorder, which is where I normally think of inflexibility. But there really is, as you say, this inflexibility to her. I actually suspected a spectrum issue when he was young but was told he wasn't because of how strongly empathetic he is. This is one of those issues that I am not sure if is a GT thing or an undiagnosed other LD thing but it has been a thing. All of the kids I know (including DS) who have "flexibility issues" have sensory and/or VSL things going on. I think these kids are so bombarded with stimuli that they struggle to filter, coupled with a different way of importing/filing/retrieving information, that they become very defensive about what they allow into their heads. If you imagine yourself trying to study for a calculus exam, sitting in an incredibly noisy amusement park, while your child is whining about wanting to ride the ferris wheel, and your DH is telling you about some drama at work, and your cell phone is ringing — you're going to be very selective and "inflexible" about what you allow into your head while you try to study/retain a chapter of calculus. I think for some of our kids, life is very much like that, and what looks like inflexibility or resistance to instruction is really an attempt at self-preservation. They try to limit what gets through the "gate" to just the information they need and are capable of processing in a way that fits into their mental map or web. Other stuff just totally clutters the place up and takes up space and processing power that's needed for other things. Does that make sense? Jackie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onaclairadeluna Posted August 20, 2011 Share Posted August 20, 2011 Hey Onaclaira, I'm back! When you said back on 9 of 2010 that you had given him high school literature to read and were just then, at age 12, starting to discuss and do some basic literary analysis, did you mean you gave him high school TEXTS or books? Except for AOPS I have used no High School Texts. For History and Science I have gone straight to college texts, I just haven't found any HS level text that I love. I didn't use a text for lit but we loosely followed one of the HS lightning lit courses last year. I am not a lit person and I really feel like I am winging it with literature. My son likes Dickens so I got the Mid 18th century British lit. and we worked through that last year. It was OK. This year we are working on ancients and I have a copy of CW Herodotus. I haven't a clue what I am doing but he loves to read and discuss these books so that's good, I think. He struggles with writing about lit (or anything else) because he has the stamina to write a 5 paragraph essay (barely, if you give him a week) but he is thinking about a short book. I am still working on how to bridge these two. I am trying to build a bridge from both sides. Then there is the problem that I don't know what I am doing as far as teaching literature. Goodness homeschooling the older grades is not for the feint of heart. I LOVED reading how this works out for you day-to-day. I LOVED your way of TALKING about things on your jogs. But if you do that, do you then require those to turn into writings? Or are they done at that point? I thought you said they were more like oral pre-writes. Well we do oral pre-writes but usually on walks we talk about everything else. He is busy working on History, Science and Math and while he does write about these every day I am very interested in what he has to say. Also his writing is not essays in History and Science. Paragraphs maybe. He understands more than he puts on paper. And frankly his knowledge of History is WAY beyond mine. Our discussions give me a little background so I am better prepared to teach his sister. Seriously, he is like a little encyclopedia. With math I am OK since I have a degree (for now anyway) but we enjoy talking about math. It is getting to the point where I have to say "wait until we get back home and you can write down for me". The other thing he likes to talk about is astronomy. He had been big on black holes. Aside from helping with skills he needs for writing and the usefulness of the general update, these discussions are tremendously useful in getting him to put his thoughts into words. He really struggles with this. He asked me once what lettuce was. In the fourth grade. So when we are taking walks I let our talks just be as they are. It's very informal. He is talking about high interest things (most of the time, sometimes I am curious about something so I steer it towards what I want to hear). And he has to explain things to a novice (most of the time). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corraleno Posted August 20, 2011 Share Posted August 20, 2011 (edited) So if this is what you do, can you tell me about it? I know what I'm thinking, but I'd like to hear more of the stories about how *you* make it practical. One issue I've found with DS is that if he's allowed to do subjects in the order he prefers, he will generally do the ones he likes first (history, science, art), and leave math and English for last — at which point he no longer has the concentration or brainpower he needs for those subjects. So the schedule we've settled on, which works for us, is that he does Math, Greek, and English in the mornings (whichever order he prefers), while his brain is fresh and I'm available to help him. Then he has lunch (and usually a trampoline break!), and then after lunch he does history and science (largely independent & interest-led, within parameters set by me). For those 5 subjects, he has to do something every day. It's usually one math lesson, one Greek assignment (online class starts next week), and whatever I give him for English. In the afternoon, it's about an hour each on history and science, but it can be whatever he chooses — history could be one TC lecture + 30 mins reading, or 2 lectures, or an hour of reading & research, and science could be a documentary and a bit of online research, an experiment, reading, drawing in his science notebook, etc. Then in the evenings he can do programming, robotics, and art as he chooses — there are no assignments, no specific time periods, he doesn't have to do them every day, etc. Those are the sort of things he often does on weekends, anyway. So I would say it's about half parent-directed (although he does choose the curriculum, he chose the foreign language, he chooses which English skills to work on, etc.), and half independent/child-led/whatever. Jackie Edited August 20, 2011 by Corraleno Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onaclairadeluna Posted August 20, 2011 Share Posted August 20, 2011 All of the kids I know (including DS) who have "flexibility issues" have sensory and/or VSL things going on. You nailed it I think. My son has sensory issues for sure. Running around outside and baths seem to help him deal. Still even with these issues I work on moving him out of his comfort zone so he can handle the big wide world. For my son there is also blood sugar involved. If he has eaten recently, he is more amenable to difficult situations. I think for some of our kids, life is very much like that, and what looks like inflexibility or resistance to instruction is really an attempt at self-preservation. Absolutely. It is one of the reasons that I have to be so flexible in order to teach him how to be flexible. It's more than modeling. It's like a frog in a pot of boiling water. I have tried to very slowly introduce him to things that I think he will need later in life. I have to meet him where he is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted August 20, 2011 Share Posted August 20, 2011 Except for AOPS I have used no High School Texts. For History and Science I have gone straight to college texts, I just haven't found any HS level text that I love. Yes! Enthusiastic agreement here. The high school texts for science and history do NOT work, I find them absolutely awful - too busy and distracting, with too little substance. With my 12 y/o, we are currently somewhat in a gap, because he is not quite ready for the college texts yet (DD was at that age) We, too discuss stuff when we walk. My son is highly visual and retains information perfectly when watching documentaries- so for science and history, he watches a lot of stuff and reads eclecticly to accumulate some broad basis of knowledge. He is rather resistant to a structured formal approach, which I think is a maturity issue - so for now, I let him follow his interests and do not make him follow a spine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted August 20, 2011 Author Share Posted August 20, 2011 I think for some of our kids, life is very much like that, and what looks like inflexibility or resistance to instruction is really an attempt at self-preservation. They try to limit what gets through the "gate" to just the information they need and are capable of processing in a way that fits into their mental map or web. Other stuff just totally clutters the place up and takes up space and processing power that's needed for other things. Does that make sense? Jackie Jackie, that made an EXTREME amount of sense and is a way I hadn't thought of it before. Thanks!! :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted August 20, 2011 Author Share Posted August 20, 2011 Yes, I've been growing a little collection of AP and college texts to try on her to see if they would help. I have Tarbuck in the wings for next week to follow up the glacial grooves we visited last week. But I have NO CLUE what will happen with that, lol. I've also been taking to heart the comments about using videos, because, as you say, she'll retain or process an extraordinary amount from that. (I think that's actually why she enjoys the VP online self-paced history, which she flies through, adores, and clearly processes into the web of her being.) For science, she had finally gotten to the point of asking for the BJU dvd class, which I think would take her a disproportionate amount of time. I pointed out to her all the OTHER things I could get her (BBC Planet Earth series, a telescope, etc. etc.) for the same amount of money. So that's the direction we're heading for science, with a balance of videos or reading and doing, hopefully with a target of 3 hours a week. Or one or two long days a month. She was actually REALLY INTRIGUED when I tossed that out. I just haven't figured out how I do enough science in one day to make it reasonable. But really, for her, once a month would be enough. If she did pre-work ahead of time (reading, videos, whatever), then that one day a month could be pretty effective. I'm also trying to shake things up in my mind, starting with something more real, something we can see, ponder, and be into, and then giving her the content that fits the level of discussion. For instance, Tarbuck's chapter on glaciers makes a lot of sense now that we've been to Alaska and seen them. She can relate to that and interact with that. I may, at some point, loosen up more and just let her pick science topics that flow from the history and HANG the conventional, thorough, sequential studies anyway. That's just what I haven't had the courage to do frankly. I mean it's one thing to say you do that with a science person. And I see people all the time saying they're doing 3 disciplines simultaneously and letting it all pan out. But I haven't found ANYONE of a classical bent advocating letting them pull rabbit trails of science from their history passion and throwing sequence to the wind. I do think you'd eventually get to where you need to be (ok, not for chemistry or physics??), because you'd be forced to fill in gaps to understand the topic that interests you. For instance you would fill in your genetics knowledge to read more about hemophilia. That works. But some subjects really do benefit from a bit of sequential study. I haven't figured all that out yet. I looked at the "How Life Works" books. They were still really wordy, not much better. I don't understand her well enough to know WHY that's the case; it just is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted August 20, 2011 Share Posted August 20, 2011 I may, at some point, loosen up more and just let her pick science topics that flow from the history and HANG the conventional, thorough, sequential studies anyway. That's just what I haven't had the courage to do frankly. I mean it's one thing to say you do that with a science person. And I see people all the time saying they're doing 3 disciplines simultaneously and letting it all pan out. But I haven't found ANYONE of a classical bent advocating letting them pull rabbit trails of science from their history passion and throwing sequence to the wind. I do think you'd eventually get to where you need to be (ok, not for chemistry or physics??), because you'd be forced to fill in gaps to understand the topic that interests you. For instance you would fill in your genetics knowledge to read more about hemophilia. That works. But some subjects really do benefit from a bit of sequential study. I haven't figured all that out yet. This may sound strange coming from a scientist (both DH and I are physics professors)- but it is exactly what we are doing for DS for pre-high school sciences! We are doing an eclectic mix of science topics, according to HIS interests. The goal is to create a knowlegde base and some general background and EXCITEMENT about science. He reads books, watch videos, does some online activities, we discuss informally. We are not doing formal labs, we are not writing lab reports, we are not memorizing vocabulary lists. (This year, we will be trying to work with a text for biology, but more to introduce DS to a textbook - we will skip around, do some online activities, and do not expect to cover the book beginning to finish) We will switch to a traditional sequential treatment in high school. DD was ready in 7th grade and started with biology - I suspect DS may wait till 9th grade. We THEN do a rigorous course of instruction using college texts. For simplicity, we are following the compartmentalized approach common in the US , one scienc a year (but one could easily do three sciences simultaneoausly by simply dividing the books into thirds and cover a third of bio, physics and chemistry each year. More scheduling hassle, and not truly integrated - for that, one would need materials specifically designed for this purpose) DH and I have talked about it a lot, and we believe this will work well. You do not have to write up labs in 5th grade in order to be successful in college physics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onaclairadeluna Posted August 20, 2011 Share Posted August 20, 2011 I may, at some point, loosen up more and just let her pick science topics that flow from the history and HANG the conventional, thorough, sequential studies anyway. That's just what I haven't had the courage to do frankly. I mean it's one thing to say you do that with a science person. And I see people all the time saying they're doing 3 disciplines simultaneously and letting it all pan out. But I haven't found ANYONE of a classical bent advocating letting them pull rabbit trails of science from their history passion and throwing sequence to the wind. Your daughter is 12 right? I think doing that sort of thing now rather than later would be better. She is of Jr. High age and there really isn't much Science at that age anyway. It is much easier to teach a subject a child loves in a child led way. In fact, I think it is much easier to teach a subject a child loves period. Perhaps you could be creative this year and find resources to cultivate interest in science. DS has been a science lover since he was 6. He discovered the David Attenborough series "Life on Earth" and then "Cosmos" (both great for any age) and he was hooked into the story. He has watched "The Mechanical Universe" on learner.org 3 times. Each time he gets a little bit more out of it. There is real math in the series but what is cool is that you don't need to follow the math or science. That is a benefit of TTC math and science courses. I think it makes them a bit weaker for rigorous (pardon the term) High School courses. But super excellent for cultivating interest in a novice. He tells me the book "5 equations that changed the world." Was mostly about math but also about Science. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onaclairadeluna Posted August 20, 2011 Share Posted August 20, 2011 This may sound strange coming from a scientist (both DH and I are physics professors)- but it is exactly what we are doing for DS for pre-high school sciences! We are doing an eclectic mix of science topics, according to HIS interests. The goal is to create a knowlegde base and some general background and EXCITEMENT about science. Cool. Now I feel even better about what we have done. Now if I can only figure out how to teach the more rigorous HS level science. I feel that my son is really ready for this. Just not sure I am.:tongue_smilie: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8filltheheart Posted August 20, 2011 Share Posted August 20, 2011 This may sound strange coming from a scientist (both DH and I are physics professors)- but it is exactly what we are doing for DS for pre-high school sciences! We are doing an eclectic mix of science topics, according to HIS interests. The goal is to create a knowlegde base and some general background and EXCITEMENT about science. He reads books, watch videos, does some online activities, we discuss informally. We are not doing formal labs, we are not writing lab reports, we are not memorizing vocabulary lists......... We THEN do a rigorous course of instruction using college texts. For simplicity, we are following the compartmentalized approach common in the US , one scienc a year (but one could easily do three sciences simultaneoausly by simply dividing the books into thirds and cover a third of bio, physics and chemistry each year. More scheduling hassle, and not truly integrated - for that, one would need materials specifically designed for this purpose) DH and I have talked about it a lot, and we believe this will work well. You do not have to write up labs in 5th grade in order to be successful in college physics. This is exactly how we do it except my kids have used a combination of high school and college texts for high school science. The older ones have all been strong science students. This will probably make you cringe, but our oldest didn't ever even take a physics course prior to the university cal based physics that he needed for his chemE degree. He did fine. (Of course, our 10th grader can't even imagine that b/c he LOVES physics.) He took anatomy and physiology and 2 semesters of college chem during high school instead. We also do the same thing for history.....no history cycles. ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corraleno Posted August 20, 2011 Share Posted August 20, 2011 Cool. Now I feel even better about what we have done. Now if I can only figure out how to teach the more rigorous HS level science. I think that some kids can continue to do largely interest-led science for HS as well — depends on the kid, his/her interests, intended major, etc. With physics & chemistry, I would definitely need to add more math and fill in some gaps that DS wouldn't cover on this own, but I'm pretty sure he'd end up covering all of biology and geology in great detail, because that's where his interests lie. He reads biology, paleontology, and zoology books for fun. He's currently on a paleo dig where he's the only person without a college degree (most have PhDs), and he's treated very much as "one of the guys" — one of the profs told him that he already knows more about paleontology than many of his undergrads, and yet everything he knows about bio/geo/paleo is completely interest-led and self-taught. Jackie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MamaSheep Posted August 20, 2011 Share Posted August 20, 2011 I can relate to what onaclair said about teaching flexibility both by modeling it and by insisting on it. That, in a nutshell, is my life with ds. We're not working at as advanced a level as some others here, but we are more and more finding a good balance for us between structure and flexibility. In our early days I tried hard to insist on a fairly rigid structure, because that's what the "experts" said I should do with ds. It not only didn't work, but it made us both miserable. However, if I had just done the "child led" thing that would have been a catastrophe too because ds was so chaotic at that point, and putting the burden of having to direct school would have been far too overwhelming for him. I've learned that what works best for us is to have an overarching structure, but to find areas for flexibility WITHIN that structure. For example, for science last year I made a list of the topics we would cover each week, and then I had several books at different difficulty levels and let him choose which to use on any given day to read about that week's topic. Some days he chose the more advanced texts, and some days he chose the quick and easy ones. Some days he'd read the quick and easy book and discover that it was an interesting subject and go read the other book too, and then find a video about the subject or look up more information online. Any which way, I knew he'd aquired at least some basic knowledge about that topic and I felt ok with moving on. So in that case I gave him a topic and some options and he got to choose his method. This year I'm being more rigid for biology, but he's got a robotics course and one about government, politics, and the economy (at his request) that will be even more flexible. For biology I've picked a high school textbook (yeah, yeah, I know, but it works for us) and a lab kit and he will need to read two to three chapters and do one lab per week. However, if he wants to do two labs in one week and then skip the next, that will be ok too, I just want to make sure we finish in a reasonable period of time so I've set a general benchmark goal. Also, I don't care if he wants to do all of his biology on one day, and all of his English on another day, but I will probably insist on some math every day. What I'm planning to do is to sit down with him at the beginning of every week and make a general plan for each day for the next week. Then every day we'll sit down and talk about how the plan worked out that day and whether we need to make any adjustments for the next day. This is the first year we're doing this, so I don't know how it will work out, but I think he's ready for this level of participation. He's always been strong willed and some people (including therapists we've worked with) have insisted that the best way to handle this is to MAKE him follow my schedule and do MY assignments when I say to do them and jump when I say frog without stopping to consider. But I don't understand the logic there. Ultimately what I want is for him to become able to responsibly exert his strong will in the form of self-discipline. I want him to be able to make his own decisions about his life and to organize his own time and to be strong enough to follow through even in the face of resistance. I DON'T want him to become a mindless drone who does what he is told, WHEN he is told, and waits for the powers that be to tell him how things HAVE TO BE. I do want him to behave responsibly, but I want him to do it because HE insists on it, not because I do. I want to wean him off me, not make him more dependent on me to think things out for him. Anyway...so I'm a little more structured on some of the core subjects--we WILL study such and such topics and we will do it at such a pace as to finish by the end of the school year. He wants to go to college, and there's a certain body of core knowledge I think will be beneficial to him in pursuing that goal and I want to make sure we don't go off on so many rabbit trails that we don't get the basics covered. But then there are a couple of other classes that are more peripheral (or at least less traditionally required for college) where we can be more flexible and "delight driven". For robotics and politics I bought him some learning resources, but I'm basing the class credit on the amount of time he spends on it. So as long as he puts his time in, and I can see that he's doing it in constructive ways, I don't even really care if he uses the resources I bought for him or something else (except that there are limits to the budget). So for these classes our planning will largely be me saying, "Ok, so what do you plan to do in robotics this week?" And then giving suggestions if he gets stuck, whereas for Biology it will be more along the lines of me saying, "Ok, so by the end of this week you will need to have read through chapter 15. Which days do you want to plan on doing that? And which lab do you want to do this week? Do you have all the supplies you need? If not, put them on the shopping list on the fridge (there are just a few common items not in the kit). And which day will be lab day?" So in both cases, a lot of the control is passed to him, so long as he wields it within the parameters I set. Does that make sense? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MamaSheep Posted August 20, 2011 Share Posted August 20, 2011 Ds came in a few minutes ago while I was typing and asked what I was doing. I told him I was participating in a discussion among homeschool moms about how to balance structure and flexibility so that the parents don't have to tell the child every little thing they have to do and then stand there and watch them to make sure they do it, and also so that, on the other hand, the parents don't just tell the kids they can do whatever they want, only to discover their child spent all day playing and didn't do any work. So here's my 14yo Aspie's take on it. He said that parents should tell the kids what needs to be done, and then let the kids decide when to do it, as long as it gets done by a particular time. I asked him what parents should do if they see the child isn't doing their work, and he said that in that case the parents should give the child a time limit for breaks and set a timer. I asked what parents should do if the child didn't start working at the end of the break, and he said, "Well, that's when the parent has to MAKE the child do the work." And dd wandered in and added, "Yeah, that's when you have to start taking away their privileges." I'm glad they know the score...lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onaclairadeluna Posted August 20, 2011 Share Posted August 20, 2011 I think that some kids can continue to do largely interest-led science for HS as well — depends on the kid, his/her interests, intended major, etc. Jackie I am pretty sure mine is one of these kids. Shouldn't I be helping put together some sort of lab experience for him, though? This is one of those places where I am clueless, I only took one real science class in college and I never got much out of labs in high school. I always just went through the motions. They need a College Labs for Dummies book or something. I can tell you one thing we won't be doing frog disections. He is king of an extremist when it comes to animal rights. He called me from camp this summer kind of flustered because one of his friends killed an ant. I said "you know son, not everyone feels the way you do about animals." he said "yeah, but he did it, INTENTIONALLY?" I had to laugh. He's always been strong willed and some people (including therapists we've worked with) have insisted that the best way to handle this is to MAKE him follow my schedule and do MY assignments when I say to do them and jump when I say frog without stopping to consider. But I don't understand the logic there. Ultimately what I want is for him to become able to responsibly exert his strong will in the form of self-discipline. I want him to be able to make his own decisions about his life and to organize his own time and to be strong enough to follow through even in the face of resistance. I DON'T want him to become a mindless drone who does what he is told, WHEN he is told, and waits for the powers that be to tell him how things HAVE TO BE. I love this. And I have to agree. Still, I am pretty sure my son would never be a mindless drone no matter what I did. I suppose there is a small part of me that wishes he were a mindless drone once and awhile.:lol:I am kidding, really I am "Jump when I say frog" my son was dragged out of a preschool for acting like a frog during horsey time. Getting him to jump is easy, getting him to stop is harder. I mean this both metaphorically and literally. I think that's why some top down learning is hard for him. It is hard for him to stop his brain to simplify a thought enough to get it on paper. He wants to keep thinking the big ideas, but in order to get skills he needs to backtrack, slow down and "be a horsey" for awhile. I want him to be able to go with the flow if he needs to, in order to to meet his goals. If this means doing what an authority says then, yes I'd like him to be able to do it. But I don't need for him to do it mindlessly. I'd like him to have the judgment to decide if it is worth it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8filltheheart Posted August 20, 2011 Share Posted August 20, 2011 (edited) Shouldn't I be helping put together some sort of lab experience for him, though? But I don't need for him to do it mindlessly. I'd like him to have the judgment to decide if it is worth it. For prior to high school, no. However, at the high school level if he will be applying to a university and not a CC, then yes, he will need lab science (depending on the school and your particular state if you are looking at state schools....the avg is 3 lab sciences. For example, TN's requirements are Science: 3 Credits - Including Biology, Chemistry or Physics, and a third lab course) If he is going to apply to a CC, pretty much the only thing they require is placement based on their Compass test. As far as the bolded, I would assume that is a universal goal. :001_smile: I can't imagine anyone wanting their children to blindly acquiesce to anything. The entire philosophy behind classical education is to form critically thinking adults.;) Edited August 20, 2011 by 8FillTheHeart Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MamaSheep Posted August 20, 2011 Share Posted August 20, 2011 (edited) I am pretty sure mine is one of these kids. Shouldn't I be helping put together some sort of lab experience for him, though? This is one of those places where I am clueless, I only took one real science class in college and I never got much out of labs in high school. I always just went through the motions. They need a College Labs for Dummies book or something. I can tell you one thing we won't be doing frog disections. He is king of an extremist when it comes to animal rights. He called me from camp this summer kind of flustered because one of his friends killed an ant. I said "you know son, not everyone feels the way you do about animals." he said "yeah, but he did it, INTENTIONALLY?" I had to laugh. I love this. And I have to agree. Still, I am pretty sure my son would never be a mindless drone no matter what I did. I suppose there is a small part of me that wishes he were a mindless drone once and awhile.:lol:I am kidding, really I am "Jump when I say frog" my son was dragged out of a preschool for acting like a frog during horsey time. Getting him to jump is easy, getting him to stop is harder. I mean this both metaphorically and literally. I think that's why some top down learning is hard for him. It is hard for him to stop his brain to simplify a thought enough to get it on paper. He wants to keep thinking the big ideas, but in order to get skills he needs to backtrack, slow down and "be a horsey" for awhile. I want him to be able to go with the flow if he needs to, in order to to meet his goals. If this means doing what an authority says then, yes I'd like him to be able to do it. But I don't need for him to do it mindlessly. I'd like him to have the judgment to decide if it is worth it. Yeah, the bolded part I can definitely relate to. It's possible that I take the position I do with regards to unquestioning obedience partly because I really have no option. I'm not going to get it, so I might as well develop a parenting/teaching philosophy that doesn't require any...lol. Still, it might be nice if ONCE IN A WHILE the boy would just go do what I asked him to do, just because I asked him and I'm his mom. In my ds's case you can't get him to jump, and then once he's jumping you can't make him stop. Actually, I've never been able to MAKE him do much of anything (and neither has anyone else, so it's not just me). The trick is to convince him it's a good idea, and then he'll do it on his own steam (and heaven help me if I get in the way). I sometimes feel like the last 14 years have been an exercise in psychological warfare. Although...as he gets older he seems to be getting better at understanding that life goes more smoothly if he cooperates most of the time, even if he doesn't always quite "get" why I want him to do something, because he's realizing that I'm a rational human being too, and I usually do have a good reason for asking him to do whatever it is, even if I didn't take the time to explain it. And it's kind of nice that not EVERYTHING has to be a battle anymore. Anyway, my point was mostly that in considering what the balance should be between parent-imposed structure and child-led learning, I have found it helpful to keep the end goal in mind, and then provide enough structure that my son can learn to cooperate with others and function effectively within the society in which he lives, while allowing enough freedom and control that he can learn to make responsible decisions independently and to negotiate acceptable solutions when there's a conflict of expectations. I think the balance will be different for different children (ds needs to work on working cooperatively, but dd is a "follower" and needs to learn to make more decisions for herself, so I do things differently for her). But I think going too far to either extreme--too much structure, or too much flexibility--can be counterproductive. Also, writing is a problem around here too. If he can SAY it, he's quite thorough and erudite. If he can type it, it's coherent and reasonably informative. If he has to write it, it's the least possible information presented in the fewest possible words. So we've had to modify a bit from the WTM ideal of read about it, then write about it. But I keep nudging him to improve, and now and then I even see some progress. He made enough headway last year that I'm feeling pretty hopeful in that area for this year. Still...yeah...writing....gah!... I have no advice about labs, really, but since you mentioned your ds wouldn't want to do dissections, I thought I'd just let you know that the Biology lab kit I ordered from eScience Labs looks like a good, solid, rigorous lab experience, and the instructions seem very clear and do-able, but the kit doesn't contain any specimens to dissect. I don't know how your ds feels about experimenting on microbes, but I think I saw at least one as I was skimming through that uses yeast. Edited August 20, 2011 by MamaSheep Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onaclairadeluna Posted August 20, 2011 Share Posted August 20, 2011 As far as the bolded, I would assume that is a universal goal. :001_smile: I can't imagine anyone wanting their children to blindly acquiesce to anything. The entire philosophy behind classical education is to form critically thinking adults.;) Indeed, that's why I am here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onaclairadeluna Posted August 20, 2011 Share Posted August 20, 2011 I don't know how your ds feels about experimenting on microbes, but I think I saw at least one as I was skimming through that uses yeast. :lol: I can just see him sticking up for the rights of microbes. He eats yogurt though so I think we are safe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted August 20, 2011 Share Posted August 20, 2011 :lol: I can just see him sticking up for the rights of microbes. He eats yogurt though so I think we are safe. Would he dissect animals that died from some cause anyway? I would not want to kill an animal just for dissection... OTOH, we have a steady supply of freshly killed rodents available, courtesy of our cat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onaclairadeluna Posted August 20, 2011 Share Posted August 20, 2011 Would he dissect animals that died from some cause anyway?I would not want to kill an animal just for dissection... OTOH, we have a steady supply of freshly killed rodents available, courtesy of our cat. I asked him and he doesn't see anything wrong with it but he is extremely sensitive and he doesn't think he can handle the "yuck" factor. He has trouble sitting next to people eating meatloaf. Is dissection an important part of the Bio Lab experience? Essentially, he'd rather not. I think he probably could but it would have to wait several years. On this topic can anyone steer my toward a book on setting up labs? What about how to design your own labs and experiments. I think DS would dig on this. Does anyone ever do this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corraleno Posted August 20, 2011 Share Posted August 20, 2011 Has he done the Creepy Crawlies and the Scientific Method book? Those are real experiments (not "demonstrations"), where the student can set/change parameters, and none of the creepy crawlies get hurt. My DS is also hypersensitive to animal suffering, and he frequently designs his own experiments with invertebrates. E.g., he tried putting different (already) dead insects at the edge of ant nests to see which insects the ants preferred, if there were differences between species, how they got the insect into the nest, etc. Last year we had a "pet" praying mantis and he experimented with different species/sizes of prey (OK, there was killing involved there, but mantids are not vegetarians, so what can you do). He also did a series of experiments with planarians to see what foods they preferred, whether they preferred light or dark spaces, deeper or shallower water, fresh or slightly slimy water, etc. Explore the World Using Protozoa is another good book for "living" bio labs. Biological Inquiries by Martin Shields (Jossey-Bass Teacher series) has lots of HS bio labs, complete with lab sheets, assessments, etc. Some are doable with household materials and some you would need to order a few supplies from somewhere like Home Science Tools or Carolina Biological. There are also online labs, like Froguts. Froguts includes a number of virtual dissections as well as fruit fly and pea genetics labs. I think it's pretty easy for kids to think up, and set up, their own labs, once they've done a few and understand how to form a hypothesis, which factors will be variable and which will be controlled, etc. Jackie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jane in NC Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 I asked him and he doesn't see anything wrong with it but he is extremely sensitive and he doesn't think he can handle the "yuck" factor. He has trouble sitting next to people eating meatloaf. Is dissection an important part of the Bio Lab experience? Essentially, he'd rather not. I think he probably could but it would have to wait several years. On this topic can anyone steer my toward a book on setting up labs? What about how to design your own labs and experiments. I think DS would dig on this. Does anyone ever do this? Not for the extremely sensitive but my son served as the photographer for a wildlife rehabber doing necropsies. Determining cause of death of shore birds (lead poisoning? aspergilosis?) was the goal but often times other aspects of bird anatomy were examined as part of the process. A necropsy has a greater purpose than a general dissection. Of course working with living but injured birds also offers fascinating lessons. Holding a loon or an osprey is much more intersting than spying one across a lake. Dissections are not the focus of a modern biology lab as they once were (say when I was in high school). A modern bio course has a foundation in biochemistry and contains far greater depth of the cellular process. There is less emphasis on taxonomy--more on evolutional motivation. In the thread I started on the high school board earlier today, Paula noted a second link which you may want to investigate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onaclairadeluna Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 Jackie, my library has the "Creepy Crawlies" book and I will go an get it. Thanks for all the recommendations. Jane, thanks for the second recommendation. http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/biology/b103/ Ask and you shall receive. Lots of interesting ideas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MamaSheep Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 ...Dissections are not the focus of a modern biology lab as they once were (say when I was in high school). A modern bio course has a foundation in biochemistry and contains far greater depth of the cellular process. There is less emphasis on taxonomy--more on evolutional motivation.... This is what I've been noticing as well. The lab kit we got has a lot more about mitosis, meiosis, dna, cellular respiration, transport, etc. than it does about comparative anatomy. A LOT. As I said, I think it looks like a good, solid bio lab, and nary a dissection to be seen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8filltheheart Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 This is what I've been noticing as well. The lab kit we got has a lot more about mitosis, meiosis, dna, cellular respiration, transport, etc. than it does about comparative anatomy. A LOT. As I said, I think it looks like a good, solid bio lab, and nary a dissection to be seen. The only dissections my kids do is in anatomy and physiology (using a college level text.) They don't do dissections as part of high school level biology (w/the exception of my ds that took biology with a former AP biology teacher. She did incorporate dissections; however, I don't.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J'etudie Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 This may sound strange coming from a scientist (both DH and I are physics professors)- but it is exactly what we are doing for DS for pre-high school sciences! We are doing an eclectic mix of science topics, according to HIS interests. The goal is to create a knowlegde base and some general background and EXCITEMENT about science. He reads books, watch videos, does some online activities, we discuss informally. We are not doing formal labs, we are not writing lab reports, we are not memorizing vocabulary lists. (This year, we will be trying to work with a text for biology, but more to introduce DS to a textbook - we will skip around, do some online activities, and do not expect to cover the book beginning to finish) We will switch to a traditional sequential treatment in high school. DD was ready in 7th grade and started with biology - I suspect DS may wait till 9th grade. We THEN do a rigorous course of instruction using college texts. For simplicity, we are following the compartmentalized approach common in the US , one scienc a year (but one could easily do three sciences simultaneoausly by simply dividing the books into thirds and cover a third of bio, physics and chemistry each year. More scheduling hassle, and not truly integrated - for that, one would need materials specifically designed for this purpose) DH and I have talked about it a lot, and we believe this will work well. You do not have to write up labs in 5th grade in order to be successful in college physics. Thank you for this. I've been leaning this way for my science buff kid and now I think I'd be insane to do anything else. He's a got a crayfish he's in the middle of dissecting, he's watching TC's Our Night Sky, he's reading whatever science books he chooses at the library, we're going to science days at the local aquarium, and we're doing some planned physics of sports experiments with his younger brother once a week. Why would I question the validity of this? :confused: And thanks for the note about not writing up labs. It's great to hear that from a scientist! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted August 21, 2011 Author Share Posted August 21, 2011 Just to be clear, the ideas I've tossed around for going way out of the box with her for science would be for high school. I've always felt comfortable with that for lower grades. It's the upper grades, where things naturally become more sequential and build and are no longer surveys, where it rattles me. It's just something I've toyed around with, the idea of having a goal of science literacy as it intersects with her life, rather than assuming everyone needs the same pre-major science courses that seem to be the main lot of high schoolers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onaclairadeluna Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 Just to be clear, the ideas I've tossed around for going way out of the box with her for science would be for high school. I've always felt comfortable with that for lower grades. It's the upper grades, where things naturally become more sequential and build and are no longer surveys, where it rattles me. Here's an idea. What if you take a look at the HS standards (most states have pretty detailed descriptions these days) and see if your out of the box ideas fit in with the standards. Use the standards as a checklist to see what might be missing (if anything) and only "school" the parts of science that she might not get with your plan. Does this make sense? I am not the biggest fan of standards but you can use them in this way to line up interest led learning with traditional school. Unless that is not a huge priority for you, I am not sure. Do you want DD to have traditional HS science courses on her transcript? Or is this something that you are mulling over? I think the traditional route has two values. #1 your general hoop jumping to get into a certain school (if the school requires this sort of thing) and #2 to help your child deal with college science. #2 would only really be important for certain majors. Some colleges don't require science at all. I took a "philosophy of science" course to fulfill one of my science requirements, and this was for a math degree. For #1 there is no intrinsic value. So if your DD doesn't need to jump this hoop it wouldn't be a big deal to throw caution to the wind and go your own path completely. However, I think it wouldn't be too difficult to merge interest led learning with a traditional high school course. If I were to go this route with DS, I would just have him read the state standards himself and decide how we would fulfill them. As it is he is happy as a clam working from a textbook so that makes my job a little easier. Still, I think it would be doable. BTW I am curious to hear more about your plans for HS. (or ideas if it is a work in progress) It's just something I've toyed around with, the idea of having a goal of science literacy as it intersects with her life, rather than assuming everyone needs the same pre-major science courses that seem to be the main lot of high schoolers. This makes complete sense to me. I think making science relevant is important for both STEM majors and non science majors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8filltheheart Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 Just to be clear, the ideas I've tossed around for going way out of the box with her for science would be for high school. I've always felt comfortable with that for lower grades. It's the upper grades, where things naturally become more sequential and build and are no longer surveys, where it rattles me. It's just something I've toyed around with, the idea of having a goal of science literacy as it intersects with her life, rather than assuming everyone needs the same pre-major science courses that seem to be the main lot of high schoolers. Ok. Glad you are comfortable. Why did I have the impression that you used BJU for most of your dd's early yrs? I thought we had actually been in textbook/interest-led discussions in the past in the past where you advocated BJU science. :confused: I have no suggestions for you for high school. My kids have all wanted to major in science and we are very science/math oriented. They also don't mind jumping from interest-led to textbooks at that pt. Where I don't hesitate to develop my own writing, lit, and history studies in high school, I personally do not feel comfortable not using textbooks at the high school level b/c I am not a scientist and I don't know what topics should be covered, what math included, and what labs to create. Hope someone else can cover those bases w/you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted August 21, 2011 Author Share Posted August 21, 2011 Well see that's the crux of it--she's NOT happy with a textbook. She never has been. So I'm curious, what textbook is it your ds is enjoying? That Cosmos book? See that to me is more in the realm of a real book, isn't it? Yes, using the toc's for several textbooks and ticking off as we hit things has been one way I've thought about it. I'm showing her the TC catalog to see if I could intrigue her that way. One of my actual problems with this is that I TRIED to go out of the box this year (much more so than any other year, and I've always been somewhat), and she totally poo-pooed EVERYTHING I got. Every single thing. Utterly rejected. I think it's basically that I find the stuff too late. She's way out there in her mind and how she wants to be talked to, even if she's not as smart as a science whiz, kwim? So there might be something in said option to use, but if she thinks it's too young, it's a no-go. Oh vay. So yeah, I'd be whiz bang at teaching a past version of her. It just seems hard to go forward. She's too contradictory. What I need is something that is all the way there, something mature enough to suit her, but something bizarre enough to suit a history person, and something with enough auditory and visual that it actually connects. Hmm, I actually said it for once! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted August 21, 2011 Author Share Posted August 21, 2011 (edited) 8--That's really easy. *I* like the BJU science. *She* doesn't. She never has. So we used it as a spine, a toc, and I would buy kits and do things other ways. For instance the chapter where they covered electronics, we did a Snap Circuits kit then went back to discuss the chapter and see if there was anything she missed. She hadn't, so she was done. Where they did a part of human anatomy, we did a 3D/4D puzzle and discussed. Some of the stuff we did briefly over a summer (just so I could feel I had done something thorough), and then we did our own things during the school year. Last year we fiddled with the BJU Life Science, and we've never gotten it comfortable. *I* would like the use the BJU all the way through. It fits what I believe, is solid, and is reasonably well-done. *She* is not the type who can deal with its quirks. She just can't. And I've asked myself whether it's an age thing or a quirk with her. That doesn't seem the total solution, as she seems to crave more thought, more discussion, more analysis. I'm saying I think she's appropriately placed, just not clicking, and would do better with a change. My options are change the methodology with the same materials or change the materials. With the chapters we did, she would ask questions that weren't in the text or be frustrated because they weren't connecting related topics adequately (for her). In other words, I think in some respects she'd actually do better with a well-written or adult-level something that wasn't so quirky, something that would just engage her. She's NOT headed for a science major. She does things with her history reading that KarenAnne tells me were typical of her as a child. Her head is full of narratives and stories, relationships. I got a volume of the Hakim science for her. It's a little too dry, more like science with history added, rather than history with science added. Whatever the case, again, she had an immediately negative reaction. I'll figure out something. Our guests are gone, and this afternoon things should settle down, once the toddler decides to nap (argh). I actually have lots of things I've been collecting over the last few months, so I just need to show them to her and help her formulate a new plan. BTW, where can I see TC course previews? I THOUGHT I ought to be able to find them on their site, but I can't find them, which leaves me feeling like a real idiot. I want to show her previews to see if anything there would click with her. Ironically, I think she feels about science the way I felt about history as a kid, that she wishes people would stop trying to make her *like* it so much. Kind of an interesting flip of criticism, eh? ;) Edited August 21, 2011 by OhElizabeth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted August 21, 2011 Author Share Posted August 21, 2011 (edited) Ok, I'll go on about this one more time. I'm pretty content with my scheme to use a mix of reading, video, and labs with a target of about 3 hours a week (per WTM). The problem is she rejected as too young everything I found. I'm basically starting over. I'd LOVE to find something she could watch that would just plain engage her in a memorable way, as a history person. Oh fiddle, I just figured it out, duh!!!!!!!!! I'm gonna go look for science related shows on video from the HISTORY channel!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! LOL Now why did that take me so long? :) Well cool, I'm just bopping back to tell you they have TONS of dvds in the science section of the History Channel store, including a particular set I had been looking at (BBC Planets) to go with earth science. They have one on the science of Ben Franklin's stuff. So see, this way I can connect with her. Watch a video about the physics of bridge failures and then do the labs and reading from a chapter on bridges, force, etc. This can work! Nuts, those would go over so big they could be Christmas presents. :) See, in reality, this is how my dh, also an engineer but history person, engages with the topics. I just hadn't thought of it till now. Boy am I SLOW. Edited August 21, 2011 by OhElizabeth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onaclairadeluna Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 Well see that's the crux of it--she's NOT happy with a textbook. She never has been. So I'm curious, what textbook is it your ds is enjoying? That Cosmos book? See that to me is more in the realm of a real book, isn't it? Yes, that's what he has been using. He is finishing it up and this year he'll be using a Bio text. I am not home so I don't have it next to me. I think it's Ravens and Johnson. I homeschool through a charter and it was in their library. He looked at it and chose it himself. Yes, using the toc's for several textbooks and ticking off as we hit things has been one way I've thought about it. I'm showing her the TC catalog to see if I could intrigue her that way. One of my actual problems with this is that I TRIED to go out of the box this year (much more so than any other year, and I've always been somewhat), and she totally poo-pooed EVERYTHING I got. Every single thing. Utterly rejected. I think it's basically that I find the stuff too late. She's way out there in her mind and how she wants to be talked to, even if she's not as smart as a science whiz, kwim? So there might be something in said option to use, but if she thinks it's too young, it's a no-go. Oh vay. So yeah, I'd be whiz bang at teaching a past version of her. It just seems hard to go forward. She's too contradictory. What I need is something that is all the way there, something mature enough to suit her, but something bizarre enough to suit a history person, and something with enough auditory and visual that it actually connects. Hmm, I actually said it for once! TC is a good place to start. What about Thinkwell? Those are very traditional classes but she might enjoy the lectures. I wonder if there are samples that she can look at. I found DS really enjoys lectures. or opencourseware videos. He is VERY auditory, the interest in textbooks is new. Really just starting last year. If he weren't interested now I don't think I'd worry too much. Our children are still young. But I do understand where you are coming from. I have a pretty contrary child too. Has she checked out Mechanical Universe at learner.org? It is really cool and might be something to get her motivated. It's very history based. Hmm, if she isn't interested in Joy Hakim she might not be interested in this. However perhaps it is the modality that is the problem. She is 2e no? For DS the progression went like this. #1) Years and years of listening and watching. #2) Years of reading about science and only finally now #3) writing about science. I think the sequence was very important because of dyslexia. He has to be mentally a few years ahead of what he is reading and several years ahead of what he is writing. What is she interested in? Try the library for TC courses. I haven't been able to find previews. It's too bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onaclairadeluna Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 What is she interested in? Oh, I see, she isn't really interested in science at all. Perhaps history related videos will help kindle her interest. Good luck on your mission. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted August 21, 2011 Author Share Posted August 21, 2011 You know, I had totally FORGOTTEN (or not realized?) there were Thinkwell science courses. *I* like the Derek Owens physical science dvd's and thought they might be nice for next year (same vein), but dh watched and said it's over her for right now. Yes, she's distinctly 2E, lol. You are remembering correctly. :) And you're right, I may have made too big a leap telling her to read about science AND write about it. She has never been much of a non-fiction reader anyway. I think that's a point very well-taken. What she likes? Well she asked to study Da Vinci a while back, and I just didn't facilitate her on that, my bad. She's crazy for making things (loves the Mini-Weapons book), and I'm noticing the HC has a Da Vinci video. If this actually becomes a solution for us, I think I'll just show her and let her pick, hoping those picks will be available through the library, haha. Yes, Karen keeps telling me things change and that another year or two could leave her totally different. But I just don't like the dismal attitude. I know when we do things the right way she CAN engage and enjoy it. It just needs to include a history connection and hands-on. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted August 21, 2011 Author Share Posted August 21, 2011 Oh, I see, she isn't really interested in science at all. Perhaps history related videos will help kindle her interest. Good luck on your mission. Bingo, lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8filltheheart Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 Well see that's the crux of it--she's NOT happy with a textbook. She never has been. So I'm curious, what textbook is it your ds is enjoying? That Cosmos book? See that to me is more in the realm of a real book, isn't it? No, The Cosmos is a pretty standard introductory level college textbook. Instead of worrying about what topics, have you tried simply going to the library and letting her chose a topic? Or going with something unlike anything found in a science textbook and topics she has probably never covered before like What Einstein Told His Cook or The View from the Oak: The Private Worlds of Other Creatures? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted August 21, 2011 Author Share Posted August 21, 2011 Oh, see I looked over The Cosmos very quickly at a sale, where I could have picked it up for a quarter, and I didn't get it, thought it didn't look like what we wanted. I MAY have made a mistake, lol. Anyways, there are always more books, lol. I have the Einstein/Cook book, which she looked at and said she wanted to read later, not right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted August 22, 2011 Author Share Posted August 22, 2011 http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~hsdept/undergraduate-programs.html I found this, just as food for thought. I know I had seen Snow mentioned on the boards here, and this says he wanted people to look at science as intricately connected to the humanities (ie. what my kid would find interesting). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.