Out of curiosity... Braille?

[Caterpiller]

Those who are teaching the kiddos sign language... Do you intend or are you also teaching braille? DD is still much too young I think. But I don't know maybe this would be a usefull skill when she is oldder if she really enjoys sign?

[fhjmom]

I am kind of confused. Why do you equate Braille and ASL?

 

Braille is a tactile representation of the written English alphabet for those with vision loss.

 

ASL is a rich, unique language which is very different from English and is used by the culture of the Deaf community and hearing people who wish to communicate with them.

 

I am not meaning to be snarky at all - I just don't see the connection.

[regentrude]

I do not see how Braille would be useful to somebody who does NOT have vision loss.

[Caterpiller]

I am not meaning to be snarky at all - I just don't see the connection.

 

I always forget to check the bilingual boards after i post. :p There isn't really a connection between the two except that both involve being able to communicate with people with disabilities. If she enjoys one, she may enjoy the other. It could open doors for her... I didn't really expect people to be annoyed??? by the question. :001_huh:

[fhjmom]

I was trying to not come across as annoyed - I was really trying to understand the connection you were making. I didn't take offense or anything.

 

I will say that it is an often told story in the deaf community of a person identifying themselves as deaf in a restaurant or other public venue, then being offered a menu/other written material in braille. It happens... a .lot. :tongue_smilie:

 

Once when I was flying alone (I often travel alone for work), and I self-identified to the gate agent, explaining that I needed someone to come and tell me face-to-face any announcements that were made over the PA because I would not be able to understand them. (I have a moderate-to-profound hearing loss.) A little while later, another gate-personnel came out with a wheelchair and said they were there to help me pre-board because of my disability. :tongue_smilie: I tried to explain to them I didn't need pre-boarding and I certainly didn't need a wheel chair but it all went in one ear and out the other. I did finally convince them that I didn't need the chair but I went ahead and pre-boarded just to quit arguing with them. :tongue_smilie:

[Rosie_0801]

There are jobs for people knowing braille, (I was curious and googled :p) but I've no idea how easy or difficult it is to get one. It sounds like the sort of thing that would get tossed out of the budget as soon as someone wants to cut funding, doesn't it? It doesn't strike me as the sort of skill that would be useful in one's every day life, as a signed language is.

 

If it tickles your fancy, have a go.

 

Rosie

[Grover]

DS recently read a book about Louis Braille and there was some braille on the back of the book. He was intrigued and I keep finding pieces of paper around the house with holes punched in them. I don't think we'll take it any further than he chooses to, but he's got himself to the point of being able to spell out words a letter at a time just for the heck of it. He did suggest that someone should invent a "Braille puncher" because it takes him a long time punching each hole, it's hard to keep them even and he has to do it in reverse to have the raised part on the right side. Oh, and if you (or your sister) push it too hard the dots squash when you use computer paper :lol: I suggested he might like to come up with some solutions to that but he said he thought he'd let someone else. :001_huh:

[regentrude]

I always forget to check the bilingual boards after i post. :p There isn't really a connection between the two except that both involve being able to communicate with people with disabilities. If she enjoys one, she may enjoy the other. It could open doors for her... I didn't really expect people to be annoyed??? by the question. :001_huh:

 

I am not annoyed at all, just puzzled. If I want to communicate with a blind person, I just SPEAK to them. If I had to communicate in writing, it would be extremely unlikely that I had the equipment to PRINT Braille - I'd type it into a normal computer, send it to them, and they would have the software to have it read to them, or the hardware to have it transcribed into Braille.

I don't think anybody HANDwrites Braille.

So, I just don't understand how a seeing person would need to use Braille to communicate with a blind person.

[Petrichor]

I once taught myself braille. It was a lot of fun, although not very useful, since I do not have severe vision problems. Our public library had some kid-oriented books written in braille, and it was really cool to be able to read by touch. I'm sure that the lesson in learning to read braille would go beyond that of reading braille, but that it would teach a different perspective of the world, as well as teaching a sharper sense of touch. Since it is the same as English, with the letters simply represented differently, it might make for a good week long theme, of trying to get through life as if you had lost your vision, maybe including a visit to a nearby community center for the blind. My community has a really neat community center for the blind, which includes a tactile garden that I got to help plant.

[Rosie_0801]

which includes a tactile garden that I got to help plant.

 

Ooh. What can you tell us about this? Other than the obvious- no prickles!

 

Rosie

[Velleta]

As the homeschooling mom of two blind children, I can tell you all about Braille. There are Braille typewriters and yes, people do use a slate and stylus to "handwrite" Braille. We use Braille all day long at my house. There are many jobs for people who know Braille well enough to teach it. There is a huge lack of Braille teachers in America, and no, "talking books" are not a substitute for Braille. If a blind person can't read Braille, they don't understand spelling, punctuation, sentence structure, or any other common writing conventions. So if anyone is interested in learning Braille, please encourage it. They can make a living off of it if they want to.

[Rosie_0801]

They can make a living off of it if they want to.

 

Wow, Velleta! What a huge job you do!

 

Would you mind expanding on the above? I spent some time with Google, but couldn't get a good idea of the job market.

 

Rosie

[Velleta]

Teachers of Braille are called "Teachers of the Visually Impaired" or TVIs for short. It is estimated that America alone needs about 5,000 more TVIs than are currently certified. There is the additional problem that many TVIs who were certified years ago have not kept up their Braille skills b/c they have been teaching low-vision kids, and everyone thinks that if a kid has "any" vision, they don't need Braille. That is a whole 'nother soapbox I won't go into, but it functionally means that even many certified TVIs are not really qualified to teach Braille. So the number of TVIs needed in America is even greater than 5000. Annually, only 200-300 teachers are certified as TVIs in America, so you can see the need isn't going away any time soon. Many TVIs work as itinerant teachers (going from one school in a given area to another throughout the week) b/c unless a school district is really large, it is unusual to have more than 1 Braille student at a time in most school districts.

 

As a personal example, my school district had a TVI for my girls for 3 years before she decided to go into administration. The district could not find another teacher, so I offered to home school them if the school would give me their equipment (which is what we wanted to do anyway). The district advertized for 6 months without ever finding a qualifed replacement. We're not talking simply not a good fit - we're talking no one who even knew as much Braille as my girls already did. So it worked out for me but it would have been a huge problem for a parent who wasn't able to homeschool.

 

In closing, the need for Braille teachers is huge in America and even more so in the rest of the world. With my knowledge of Braille, I can go pretty much anywhere I would want to go in the world and find a job. It might not pay as much it does here in America, but if anyone is interested in service work abroad, knowledge in teaching the blind is very much in demand.

[Rosie_0801]

Thanks for that, Velletta! But do employers really care about certification and actual knowledge of Braille. We've been involved in Deaf education, and experienced some incredibly stupid things. For example, my dh applied for a IT teaching job at the Deaf school where he'd been doing IT support, so he knew the staff, the students, the computer system, the contract IT guys, got along well with them and could sign. He got knocked back in favour of a woman who had some teaching experience that he didn't have but couldn't sign *at all*. And this was a manual, not oral school. They had to hire a full time interpreter for her. :glare:

 

When you say you could go anywhere in the world, you mean the English speaking world, yes?

 

I wonder what the industry is like here in Australia. Hmm :)

 

Rosie

[Matryoshka]

When you say you could go anywhere in the world, you mean the English speaking world, yes?

 

Braille is just letters/an alphabet - does it matter what language it's written in? Is there another alphabet for the blind for other languages (or alphabets - although I would think it would be easier to transcribe any phonetic language (even one starting with a non-Latin alphabet) into Braille rather than inventing a new one, I have no idea what the reality is...)

 

Now you've got me curious... :)

[Rosie_0801]

Braille is just letters/an alphabet - does it matter what language it's written in? Is there another alphabet for the blind for other languages (or alphabets - although I would think it would be easier to transcribe any phonetic language (even one starting with a non-Latin alphabet) into Braille rather than inventing a new one, I have no idea what the reality is...)

 

Now you've got me curious... :)

 

The wiki article is interesting; especially the employment level discrepancy between Braille and non-Braille users.

 

I met a blind chap on the train once and he couldn't read Braille. He blamed that on not being taught young enough. Now I'm curious how it is taught. I wouldn't have thought about the importance of learning to maintain an even touch, or using the left hand to find the next line while still reading the previous. I've seen it done, but it didn't really register with me.

 

Rosie

Edited September 20, 2011 by Rosie_0801

[Matryoshka]

The wiki article is interesting; especially the employment level discrepancy between Braille and non-Braille users.

 

That is very interesting. Sounds like they do just use Braille's alphabet for other languages, but of course with modifications for the different languages, similar to the way the Latin alphabet gets slightly modified for different languages. Although, yeah, you'd have to be able to speak/understand the language in order to read it, even if the "letters" of the Braille are very similar from language to language. Don't know why that wasn't occurring to me. :tongue_smilie:

 

I knew that about the employment level discrepancy. It's just criminal that blind/visually impaired kids are not being taught Braille as a matter of course.

 

One very interesting field trip we took was to the National Braille Press in Boston. We got to see Braille books being printed and bound through all the steps of the process.

[Velleta]

Braille can be used in all languages, even character languages like Mandarin. There are differences in Braille in different languages. Standard English Braille has 189 contractions to reduce the amount of Braille required per page. I don't know the contractions for other languages, but know they do have them. Latin is taught in uncontracted Braille (which I do know b/c my girls study Latin). If they want to study another foreign language, I'll have to figure out the Braille specifics for that language.

 

If taught early enough, Braille readers can read at the same speed as sighted readers. Unfortunately, that is rather the exception than the rule. To the earlier question about certification - yes, it is a big deal. Would you have someone teaching reading (in ps) who had never learned to read themselves? Our ps tried to have someone uncertified as our girls' Braille teacher but backed down after we pointed out that they knew more Braille than he did, and would you have someone teach 5th grade math who never got past 2nd grade? They did find someone certified after that.

[Rosie_0801]

Although, yeah, you'd have to be able to speak/understand the language in order to read it, even if the "letters" of the Braille are very similar from language to language.

 

I was reading up on Braille in Australia yesterday, and they have books written in Turkish and a few other of the large community languages, but with the Braille in Australian. I say "Australian" because there seems to be differences in the Braille between English speaking countries.

 

I knew that about the employment level discrepancy. It's just criminal that blind/visually impaired kids are not being taught Braille as a matter of course.

 

One might say the same about Deaf kids and their local sign language. :glare:

 

One very interesting field trip we took was to the National Braille Press in Boston. We got to see Braille books being printed and bound through all the steps of the process.

 

Groovy! I haven't managed to figure out where Australian Braille books are made, or if people buy them from the US. As far as I can tell, the dialect differences are with maths.

 

To the earlier question about certification - yes, it is a big deal. Would you have someone teaching reading (in ps) who had never learned to read themselves? Our ps tried to have someone uncertified as our girls' Braille teacher but backed down after we pointed out that they knew more Braille than he did, and would you have someone teach 5th grade math who never got past 2nd grade? They did find someone certified after that.

 

*I* wouldn't, but to be quite frank, I'd believe a lot of things of "the system." We didn't think an Auslan school would hire a teacher who couldn't sign over one that could, but they did. I wouldn't think someone who can't do fractions would be given a grade 5 class to teach, but it happens.

 

If taught early enough, Braille readers can read at the same speed as sighted readers. Unfortunately, that is rather the exception than the rule.

 

How early is early? You've got me wondering now. My dd seems overly devoted to scholarship for a four year old, but has far more interest than talent at present. I'm having trouble keeping her occupied according to her actual ability level. She's really into learning her letters at the moment, both written and Auslan so maybe I should get some Braille flash cards or something. You know, wider rather than deeper, because she's not ready for deeper.

 

Hmm. I'm sure dh will be impressed to hear about my newest bright idea. :rolleyes: It might be expensive because we don't qualify for the free stuff, but I've got to do something with this kid!

 

Rosie

[Velleta]

Early as in the same time sighted kids are taught to read print, as opposed to high school when low vision kids who have slipped through on 36 font print can't keep up with the required class reading anymore and turn to Braille out of desperation. Then they are stuck maxing out at 50-100 wpm instead of the 200-400 wpm that kids who learn Braille in the 4-6 year old range attain.

[ElizabethB]

Hmm. I'm sure dh will be impressed to hear about my newest bright idea. :rolleyes: It might be expensive because we don't qualify for the free stuff, but I've got to do something with this kid!

 

This book about Louis Braille has the basic alphabet in the back, my daughter and I taught ourselves a few letters for fun!!

 

"Readers can feel the alphabet and numbers from 1-10 at the back of the book."

[Rosie_0801]

This book about Louis Braille has the basic alphabet in the back, my daughter and I taught ourselves a few letters for fun!!

 

"Readers can feel the alphabet and numbers from 1-10 at the back of the book."

 

We have a book about Louis Braille with the alphabet on the back too, but I don't want to cut it up to make appropriate school resources! I've emailed Vision Australia to find out what I can buy and from where. As far as I can tell, Australia does maths Braille differently to other countries. I don't know if that means different numbers or different contractions or what. I'm hoping the Vision Australia lady will clear up my confusion.

 

Rosie

[Velleta]

I wouldn't bother learning Nemeth code if I were you. Stick to the basic English contractions and literary numbers. That's plenty right there.

[Rosie_0801]

Heh: http://www.aph.org/edresearch/braille_rap/index.html

 

I won't be learning Nemeth code one second before I even find out what it is. :tongue_smilie:

 

Rosie

[Velleta]

Nemeth code is the universal Braille math code. It makes learning the alphabet in Braille look easy.

[twoforjoy]

There is a huge lack of Braille teachers in America, and no, "talking books" are not a substitute for Braille. If a blind person can't read Braille, they don't understand spelling, punctuation, sentence structure, or any other common writing conventions. So if anyone is interested in learning Braille, please encourage it. They can make a living off of it if they want to.

 

I had a friend in grad school who was blind. She hated the lack of Braille materials available. Apparently the cost of printing things in Braille is pretty prohibitive, and Braille texts are very unwieldy, so fewer and fewer things are being printed in Braille and instead being produced as audio. Pretty much all of the reading she did in grad school was either recorded audio or via a reader. She much preferred reading in Braille, though. Of course, she was studying English literature and loved to read, so I'm not sure how representative she was of blind people, but I have to imagine there's at least some demand for materials printed in Braille, and a need for people who are capable of doing it.

 

My father, for some reason, learned Braille when he was in the Air Force.

[Dmmetler]

It used to be that you could contact the American Foundation for the Blind as a teacher and they'd send you a stack of materials to use with kids, so you might want to contact the Australian equivalent. Even if you can just get a stack of bookmarks with the braille alphabet on them, you could cut them apart and use them to make materials.

 

Another possibility is to get a braille slate and make your own materials that way. I don't know how expensive they are, but I know that one of my friends and I used to LOVE making pictures using one for her father to look at and tell us what we'd done (he actively encouraged us to explore and use the various materials he had around to accommodate his needs, provided we put them back so he could find them.) I got pretty good at writing braille using a slate for awhile, but never was any good at actually reading it with my fingertips-I tended to peek and read it visually.

[Celia]

Early as in the same time sighted kids are taught to read print, as opposed to high school when low vision kids who have slipped through on 36 font print can't keep up with the required class reading anymore and turn to Braille out of desperation. Then they are stuck maxing out at 50-100 wpm instead of the 200-400 wpm that kids who learn Braille in the 4-6 year old range attain.

 

Thank you for this information about this. My ds7 has some type of retinal dystrophy, and although he's still seeing 20/40, I think our doctor is trying to prepare us bad news, as he has us meeting up with the Visual Impairment Program next month. I'm going to enquire about beginning to teach him braille right away, rather than wait until his vision decreases.

 

Do you have any recommendations on materials to use to teach braille?

[Velleta]

If your son has a progressive eye disease, then yes, starting on Braille early is by far and away the best thing to do. I'd look at APH (American Printing House for the Blind) and the National Braille Press, as they both have a lot of materials available. The first that comes to mind is: "Just Enough to Know Better." The Hadley School for the Blind offers a variety of free courses for parents interested in learning Braille. I learned Braille through Hadley. If your son does turn out to have a progressive disease, I'd be glad to talk further with you about what your options are for educating him. I have one low vision kid and 2 blind children, so I have a little experience in that area :-)

[didadeewiththree]

I think that teaching Braille or sign language and just in general talking about people with disabilities is great to teach kids. My son was in public school from K till the end of 5th grade and since 1st grade has been in the "Special Friends Club" up at school. When we pulled him out to homeschool, his chief concern was whether or not he could still participate up at school in this program. We have it worked out so that he can still attend and be apart of this group. He loves it and I think all kids should be given the opportunity to learn how to communicate with others, despite their disabilities.

 

I think this also is a character building skill that will make an impact on their view of others. You could also take a field trip day to visit a school for the blind and read to ger abt Helen Keller; it would make for a great unit study. She may also want to help others one day and, you never know, she may want to be a OC or other related therapist. Endless possibilites, and I dont see one of them as a negative.

[Rosie_0801]

Nemeth code is the universal Braille math code. It makes learning the alphabet in Braille look easy.

 

I don't know about universal. I finally found an Australian mob who know what they are talking about. (You'd think the Australian Association for the Blind would, but they didn't.) They said they'd send me a few sheets of embossed letters and numbers, which is a happiness! Also, the only Braille similarities between the US and Oz are the letters. The numbers are different and the contractions are too! So I guess I could buy grade one text from the US (assuming we ever get that far) but not grade two.

 

I know that people always ask why there are different signed languages in different places, and there are good reasons for that. I really have to wonder why they deliberately made dialect differences in a created code like this!

 

Rosie