Older kids (say ages 10+) and this board

[Laura Corin]

So then the issue becomes...there are two kids, one with 2E issues and one without, both working on the same material, and both the same young age. Both need extra time on exams, but the 2E kid gets whatever time he needs, and the 1E kid does not. The 2E kid is successful and the 1E kid is not, simply because he needs more time. Is this fair?

 

Calvin received extra time for when he took high school exams early, but not because he was young: he has coordination problems which will carry on being an issue at whatever age. Being young is not, for me, a reason for accommodations, because the child could wait and take the exam later. If Hobbes had taken exams early, I would not have expected him to have special accommodations, as he doesn't have a relevant LD.

 

Laura

[Crimson Wife]

If a child is working at a certain level, but needs more time than is typical to complete the work, wouldn't you HAVE to count that work? I mean, isn't the alternative to make the child take the course again, if the course is required? I can certainly see that a child could have completed four years of high school work with time accomodations, but is not then ready to graduate or go to college. But if they have the knowledge, shouldn't they then have credit for said knowledge? And won't they show maturity and study skills at a later point in other content areas, which will then earn them the right to graduate?

 

For me personally, I wouldn't give high school credit for a course covering high school level content but done more slowly or with reduced output or other accommodations for being young. If a course in a certain subject is required in high school, the student could just substitute a more advanced course (like a university level one) rather than repeat.

 

My DD will most likely do high school chemistry the next time through the cycle but I don't plan on giving her a high school credit for it given that she'll only be in 6th grade & unlikely to be up to doing the output expected of a 10th grader.

[regentrude]

If a child is working at a certain level, but needs more time than is typical to complete the work, wouldn't you HAVE to count that work? I mean, isn't the alternative to make the child take the course again, if the course is required? I can certainly see that a child could have completed four years of high school work with time accomodations, but is not then ready to graduate or go to college. But if they have the knowledge, shouldn't they then have credit for said knowledge? And won't they show maturity and study skills at a later point in other content areas, which will then earn them the right to graduate?

 

There is never a requirement for a specific course, only for a specific subject. They can always take a more challenging, more comprehensive, more in depth course in the same field to count for high school credit. For instance, if the kid has done a slow high school biology in 7th and did not quite finish the book, he can take AP biology or a college course in 10th and take that to satisfy any biology requirement.

 

Btw, most colleges only want to see the courses completed in the last four years.

 

I also don't quite get the idea of cutting gifted kids slack and have them get away with less than they are capable of, in order to get done early. Instead of having them breeze through a mediocre course at an early age and call it done, I would much prefer they use their brains to take a hard course when it's time for the class.

[wapiti]

No one can officially sit a Regent's exam until he is officially an 8th grader. So, the school and parent will come up with a way. PG and HG children usually grade skip so they may be officially 8th graders when they take it. 7th graders can take the August exam, after they are promoted to 8th in June. Younger children can wait and take the exam when they get to be officially 8th graders. The difficulty in NY is that much acceleration is locally determined - from who gets in the course, what courses are offered and what is allowed to go on the transcript. Only 5.5 credits can be transferred in which won't cover what a gifted accelerated math student will typically take.

 

Thanks for explaining this. I guess that's why that recent new poster was struggling with the alg Regents issue.

Edited August 13, 2011 by wapiti

[Crimson Wife]

I also don't quite get the idea of cutting gifted kids slack and have them get away with less than they are capable of, in order to get done early. Instead of having them breeze through a mediocre course at an early age and call it done, I would much prefer they use their brains to take a hard course when it's time for the class.

 

I don't think anyone is advocating for this. It's that with asynchronicity, there are plenty of gifted kids who are cognitively ready for content far above their grade level but who are not ready for the pace and/or output expected of a much older student taking the course at the normal time. Adapting a higher-level course to me seems less "mediocre" than going with the too-easy one that matches the output of the child. That, IMHO, would be letting the child get away with less than he/she is capable of doing.

[EKS]

For me personally, I wouldn't give high school credit for a course covering high school level content but done more slowly or with reduced output or other accommodations for being young. If a course in a certain subject is required in high school, the student could just substitute a more advanced course (like a university level one) rather than repeat.

 

My DD will most likely do high school chemistry the next time through the cycle but I don't plan on giving her a high school credit for it given that she'll only be in 6th grade & unlikely to be up to doing the output expected of a 10th grader.

 

But here's the thing. Unless you enroll your child in a class (or have been a high school teacher of the target subject), it is *very* difficult to figure out what the output expectations are for any subject other than math. When I look at the website of our local (highly rated) high school, their output expectations appear to be far less than I would expect. Then if you look at college output expectations, it's even less (volume wise).

 

The ultimate accommodation, however, is homeschooling itself. My young son will be starting algebra next year, but he will be doing it one-on-one with me. He won't be in a room with 30 8th graders with all the stress and distraction which comes with that. He will do most his work on a whiteboard because that just works better for us. I won't time tests because I don't know how much time to allow. It is unlikely he would be successful with algebra in a classroom, but I fully expect success in a homeschool setting. Say he gets an A in the course, should he get credit for it?

 

As for taking longer--say a kid of high school age is just not getting algebra and it takes him two years to get through the book. Should he get credit for algebra? My guess is that most people would say yes in this situation. But many of the posters here are saying no to the younger kid who completes the course more slowly.

 

Why is it that once kids are of high school age, what constitutes a credit is far more flexible? On the high school board, I'm always reading things like "your homeschool, your requirements" when it comes to things like output expectations. Obviously not everyone feels this way, but, at least for me, once my son hit the official high school age, I felt much more relaxed about whether or not something was credit worthy.

 

My older son is extremely 2E and I've given much thought to the issues surrounding accommodations and what level of accommodation is appropriate for kids doing high school work early. Gifted kids with processing speed on the low side of average, who would not get accommodations for grade level work, are at a distinct disadvantage when doing work (timed) targeted to kids 3+ years older. As compared to that population, they are disabled. This "disability" can be well accommodated by homeschooling.

 

As the ultimate accommodation is homeschooling, should any homeschooled kid get credit for high school work? Obviously, they should, but if you say no accommodations to kids without documented disabilities, you can't disregard the fact that homeschooling is actually providing what in a school setting would be considered special education/accommodations.

[serendipitous journey]

... I'm so glad for this thread; I've been skimming this board and the high school board for content related to older kids (for preparation purposes) and had gotten the impression that by high school, the gifted kids must have been absorbed into the general group somehow ...

 

Esp. happy to see the Epsilon/mathpath programs. And to have the idea that college interest in foreign language was a "proxy" for the associated skill set; I was mystified to see Stanford so interested in foreign languages from homeschooled kids, but Kai's point makes sense.

 

and a question: what are the good boards for compacting/radical accel?

[Crimson Wife]

B

As for taking longer--say a kid of high school age is just not getting algebra and it takes him two years to get through the book. Should he get credit for algebra? My guess is that most people would say yes in this situation. But many of the posters here are saying no to the younger kid who completes the course more slowly.

 

Wouldn't the slower high school child only get 1/2 credit per year? I think that's the way it worked at my alma mater. There was an Algebra 1A and an Algebra 1B that together covered the same material as the single-year Algebra 1. That's how I would personally put it on a transcript, if I were required to give one.

 

In terms of output expectations for a high school class, I would go by the standards of what I remember from my alma mater. In the high school chemistry class I took, we were expected to write full lab reports twice per week. Let's just say that I will be pleasantly surprised if in two years, my DD is capable of doing the same. I also don't know how much of the textbook she'll get through in a single year. Conceptual Chemistry has 20 chapters, Singapore Chemistry Matters and Prentice-Hall both have 25. We may very well end up doing only selected chapters.

 

The way I look at it, she'll be doing middle school chemistry using a high school textbook. Advanced content, but she won't be getting high school credit for it. In high school, she'll take AP-level chemistry for credit.

[regentrude]

I don't think anyone is advocating for this. It's that with asynchronicity, there are plenty of gifted kids who are cognitively ready for content far above their grade level but who are not ready for the pace and/or output expected of a much older student taking the course at the normal time. Adapting a higher-level course to me seems less "mediocre" than going with the too-easy one that matches the output of the child. That, IMHO, would be letting the child get away with less than he/she is capable of doing.

 

Agreed - but I wrote this in response to the question why one would not want to grant credit to the young kid who does the high school level content at a slow pace. My point is that being satisfied with the regular high school content at slow pace and a younger age and calling this the high school credit is short changing the child. I have absolutely nothing against using high school material for a younger student - but I would want the kid to take a harder course fitting to their abilities when they are actually high school age - as opposed to accepting the slow fluffy one for credit and NOT doing the subject at a higher level later.

Does that make sense?

[regentrude]

As for taking longer--say a kid of high school age is just not getting algebra and it takes him two years to get through the book. Should he get credit for algebra? My guess is that most people would say yes in this situation. But many of the posters here are saying no to the younger kid who completes the course more slowly.

 

 

the high school student would receive ONE credit for all of algebra 1 - no matter whether it took him six months or two years. he would not receive two credits just because it took him twice as long.

So, yes, a younger student should receive one credit for algebra 1 even if it took longer - but NOT if he spent one year and did not manage to complete the course because he was slow.

 

 

Why is it that once kids are of high school age, what constitutes a credit is far more flexible? On the high school board, I'm always reading things like "your homeschool, your requirements" when it comes to things like output expectations. Obviously not everyone feels this way, but, at least for me, once my son hit the official high school age, I felt much more relaxed about whether or not something was credit worthy.

 

 

I am not sure this is generally the case. Especially for math and sciences, there is some "canon" that has to be covered to call it a credit. Humanities and languages, I agree, that varies widely - but math is rather standardized (with harder and easier programs, of course)

[EKS]

Wouldn't the slower high school child only get 1/2 credit per year? I think that's the way it worked at my alma mater. There was an Algebra 1A and an Algebra 1B that together covered the same material as the single-year Algebra 1. That's how I would personally put it on a transcript, if I were required to give one.

 

Absolutely. But the posters here who are advocating for identical pacing seem to be saying that the kid should get no credit for the work completed if the pacing isn't equivalent.

 

In terms of output expectations for a high school class, I would go by the standards of what I remember from my alma mater. In the high school chemistry class I took, we were expected to write full lab reports twice per week. Let's just say that I will be pleasantly surprised if in two years, my DD is capable of doing the same. I also don't know how much of the textbook she'll get through in a single year. Conceptual Chemistry has 20 chapters, Singapore Chemistry Matters and Prentice-Hall both have 25. We may very well end up doing only selected chapters.

 

The way I look at it, she'll be doing middle school chemistry using a high school textbook. Advanced content, but she won't be getting high school credit for it. In high school, she'll take AP-level chemistry for credit.

 

Wow--two labs per week is pretty heavy on lab work. That's 72 labs in a year. Most of what I've seen has high school kids doing maybe two labs per month.

 

My son did Conceptual Chemistry in combination with the Teaching Company Chemistry course (for the quantitative stuff) and a LabPaq (CK-101) prior to high school. I've decided not to count it on his transcript, even though I think everything together was equivalent to a high school course, partially because I don't want to list Conceptual Chemistry (which is sort of in a place that is not solidly middle school or high school level) as the primary text for a strong science student.

[EKS]

the high school student would receive ONE credit for all of algebra 1 - no matter whether it took him six months or two years. he would not receive two credits just because it took him twice as long.

So, yes, a younger student should receive one credit for algebra 1 even if it took longer - but NOT if he spent one year and did not manage to complete the course because he was slow.

 

I'm not advocating that the kid get more than one credit. I'm advocating that the kid should get one credit for Algebra I at the time of completion.

[quark]

what are the good boards for compacting/radical accel?

 

KarenAnne's suggestion of a subforum may be what you're looking for. I'm still uncertain if it will be a suitable space for me to learn more/ contribute since mine is a radically accel. non-2E kid. But if you're looking for what I think you're looking for, you'll probably get the best result from frequenting different boards according to your needs.

 

My fave boards for my rad accel. non 2E, asynchronous learner:

K-8 boards for language arts/ history

Logic boards for languages/ history/ science

High school boards for math/ science/ languages

Accelerated learner board for misc.

[zaichiki]

Asking this question because I'm still quite new to this forum and would like to understand the culture/ protocols better. Is it okay for those of us with young kids doing middle/ high school work, i.e. radically accelerated kids, to keep asking questions on the logic/ high school boards?

 

My oldest is a lot closer to high school age... but he's still a couple of years away... and I've visited the high school forum. I think it's a good place to go if that's the level you need.

[zaichiki]

The input is easy--use high school level materials. Where things get dicey is the output, especially, like you mentioned, for things like history/geography and English.

 

But there are unseen expectations for high school as well. Let's take foreign language as an example. Many schools require 2+ years of the same foreign language. IMO, the schools don't really care if the kid knows something about a language other than English. I think it is being used as a proxy for something else, namely the ability to memorize a lot of foreign sounding vocabulary in a short amount of time, the ability to be flexible in one's thinking, and the ability to stick with a program that builds on itself for more than one school year. And I think that implicit in this is the idea that the kid is orchestrating his own study time. So, if I start my 9yo in a high school Latin program where we take it at his pace and I orchestrate his studying, when he finishes whatever is designated as a year, should he be granted a high school credit? He knows a year's worth of content, but he hasn't satisfied the implied expectations.

 

Maybe I'm the only one who worries about these things. But to me they are important issues that don't have easy answers.

 

I think you can safely award high school credit if the child can pass a high school level exam typically given for that class.

 

I haven't been counting credits yet... I'm assuming my oldest is not going to "graduate," but will likely begin taking community college courses at some point. I guess I'm procrastinating... probably not the best idea. I do keep records so I can cobble something together if needed at a future date. Sending him to a Jesuit high school is in the back of my mind...

[MBM]

Wow--two labs per week is pretty heavy on lab work. That's 72 labs in a year. Most of what I've seen has high school kids doing maybe two labs per month.

 

My son will have two labs per week this year in his freshman physics class. I thought that was the norm. No?

[zaichiki]

What counts for high school credit?

 

I'm starting to think about this in terms of my child's future college peers. I was recently reading Fat Envelope Frenzy (http://www.amazon.com/Fat-Envelope-Frenzy-Promising-Students/dp/0061257168) and I was amazed at the types of classes and extracurricular activities some of these kids were handling, concurrently, in high school. These are the types of kids who *could* attend college early, but do not. Instead, they are handling way more challenge in their high school experience than most kids would.

 

I think you have to start thinking about this from the college perspective and then go backwards. Start thinking about your child's interests and passions (easier if said child is older or exceptionally advanced in one area) and what types of leanings they may have for future careers. Which college might be the type of school they'll end up attending? What are the kids who attend those schools in those majors doing in high school? Maybe *that's* my child's measuring stick? If my child can handle that input/output, I will consider it for high school credit. After all, those types of class experiences are probably what the other kids in his/her college classes will have had... and I want my child to be competitive in *that* environment.

[EKS]

What counts for high school credit?

 

I'm starting to think about this in terms of my child's future college peers. I was recently reading Fat Envelope Frenzy (http://www.amazon.com/Fat-Envelope-Frenzy-Promising-Students/dp/0061257168) and I was amazed at the types of classes and extracurricular activities some of these kids were handling, concurrently, in high school. These are the types of kids who *could* attend college early, but do not. Instead, they are handling way more challenge in their high school experience than most kids would.

 

I think you have to start thinking about this from the college perspective and then go backwards. Start thinking about your child's interests and passions (easier if said child is older or exceptionally advanced in one area) and what types of leanings they may have for future careers. Which college might be the type of school they'll end up attending? What are the kids who attend those schools in those majors doing in high school? Maybe *that's* my child's measuring stick? If my child can handle that input/output, I will consider it for high school credit. After all, those types of class experiences are probably what the other kids in his/her college classes will have had... and I want my child to be competitive in *that* environment.

 

This is where I have ended up with this as well. I will keep records for things like Algebra I that were done well before high school age, but unless a school specifically requires those early courses (and this is unlikely for highly selective schools), I will only include what has been done in the final four years of schooling.

[KAR120C]

This is where I have ended up with this as well. I will keep records for things like Algebra I that were done well before high school age, but unless a school specifically requires those early courses (and this is unlikely for highly selective schools), I will only include what has been done in the final four years of schooling.

The school who specifically requested it was UNC-Chapel Hill, which isn't ivy league but by some measures is "highly selective". So I'm not sure about selectivity vs. likelihood of wanting early records.