Help - crating a dog (not puppy)? Rescue questions.

[Night Elf]

I rescued Bandit in Dec. 2006. That means she's lived with us 17 months. They estimated her age at about 2 years old which would mean she's 3 or 4 years old now.

 

The initial paperwork said she was thrown out of a car into a ditch, had dry eye, and some type of burns in the back of her mouth. They found her in February but she wasn't available to adopt until December. They said she needed to be an indoor dog but have a fenced backyard as well.

 

She trembles violently when going outside in any weather except a warm sunshiny day. She runs under the bed when it rains. She was extremely skittish when we brought her home, running from us for several months. It really took a whole year for her to warm up to us and come to us when we call her. She is a very sweet tempered dog.

 

BUT... and this is a big thing for us... she is so afraid of going outside that we've been using puppy pads in the house. We have a specific place for her downstairs but always had to keep a pad in the hallway upstairs too. We've tried getting her to go outside but she doesn't go consistently. And she doesn't always hit the pads either. The floor downstairs has to be scrubbed because of her misses, and my hallway carpet is just absolutely atrocious.

 

We've reached our limit and really want her to go potty outside only. I'm ready to be firm and not back down. We've been keeping her in her crate today, which she isn't used to really. We've blocked off the hallway and the downstairs, and keep an eye on her. She's gone outside 3 times which is great. But I'm worried about what to do tonight. She doesn't sleep in her crate but has had the run of the house. If I crate her during the night, what do I do if she wakes up and whines/barks? That's what happened the last time I tried crating her at night. I've googled information and read that I shouldn't let her out of the crate for fussing because it's like rewarding bad behavior. How do I know if she needs to go to the bathroom or not? I don't know if she's in the habit of going at night because we're asleep.

 

Is it too late for us to housetrain her? Is it possible to housetrain a dog that seems afraid of being outside? My DH thinks if we just pick her up and carry her outside, she'll get over her fears or stubborness or whatever it is that is keeping her from going outside.

[mooooom]

because it really is difficult to know how far it is okay to push anyone - you don't know what the level of fear is. I also have a very fearful dog, and sometimes-often - carried him over thresholds that frightened him (he was in no way aggressive, he only urinated when afraid, and he peed over many thresholds.... But I knew what he was afraid of (people) and how much he could take.

 

I think, in the long term, that you really have to work on lessening her fear of the outside - without knowing specifically what frightens her makes it more difficult. What motivates her - food? treats? playtime? Whatever it is, take her out often, make a big fuss, play with her, toss her hotdogs, whatever turns her on outside, so that going out becomes a fun experience.

 

Short term - I would crate her at night, but bring the crate up to your bedroom, or one of the kids' rooms, so that she is right with you and not alone to become fearful and bark. If she goes before bedtime, there would be no need for a 4yr old dog to have to go during the night (assuming she does not have a bladder infection - or incontinence issues - which females can sometimes get if spayed very young - which doesn't sound like the case).

 

Good luck. I know my dog will never be "normal" but he is a friend in his own way, and was always wonderful with my children.

[Tammy]

Oh wow....The Dog Whisperer had a case somewhat just like this....and he had a dog that was kept inside for over 1 year. His solution was to forget the dog's past...and move on. He associated going outside with something fun (maybe he gets a treat or something or his favorite toy). You have to be in control...and not even think of outside as anything bad....because the dog can tell. Maybe take the dog outside.....for a couple minutes....then bring the dog inside and play with it.....and give it a favorite toy. Go back outside and stay longer......over and over.....all at one time. If you go outside with the dog on a leash....MAKE SURE you are not remotely thinking anything bad will happen.....be IN CONTROL.....KWIM? Good luck....and I will go try to find that episode for you.....

[Tammy]

Here it is.....watch the whole thing. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZhR20nadFY

 

Hope it helps....

Tammy

[Night Elf]

Thanks ladies. I'll definitely bring the crate into my room. I'm just worried she'll want out in the middle of the night. I'm going to watch that Dog Whisperer episode now. I do like his show. :)

[nancypants]

Astrid? Astrid? Where are you?

 

I'm telling you, Astrid is your woman for this question!

[Mamagistra]

One additional thing you might try is taking up her water bowl early...say 7 PM. Then if she potties outdoors at bedtime, you can be certain that she doesn't need to go, kwim? If you are confident that she has no bladder/incontinence issues as mooooom said, then limiting water at night should reassure you somewhat that she won't wet her crate. Hopefully she won't fuss if she's crated in your room.

 

Good luck! :001_smile:

[Pamela H in Texas]

Our dogs would go in the house at night if we let them have the run. We started with having the little one in bed with us. Now, they both sleep in my daughter's room, on the floor. But that is a small enough space they don't go unless it's an emergency (extremely rarely).

 

We tried crating at night but we have a very scared-of-her-own-shadow dog also and any sound and she'd cry. I think you know what I mean.

 

Another idea we've done in the past is using a leash tied to the bed. THat way they can move positions but can't get away to potty.

 

ANyway, dog whisperer I am not. But we FINALLY got our dogs mostly potty trained now. It wasn't always easy especially for the previously abused one.

[astrid]

Astrid? Astrid? Where are you?

 

I'm telling you, Astrid is your woman for this question!

 

First, thank you for rescuing this dog, and for sticking with her. I know it's been hard, and you've done an incredibly admirable job getting her this far. This is NOT an easy dog, and with her baggage, you are really special people to keep on lovin' her. BRAVO!

 

Okay, now down to brass tacks. This is going to be long, so grab some :lurk5:

 

The most important thing to recognize is that dogs do not live in the past. They can have some conditioned responses to experiences, such as trembling during bad weather, but that's a learned behavior. They don't "remember" in the sense that we think of. THAT is good news.

 

The other important thing to recognize is that every time the dog trembles, runs and hides, or otherwise freaks out because of an external stimuli (storm, weather, unfamiliar surroundings, etc.) the WORST thing you can do is exactly what comes naturally--- pet her, reassure her, coo "It's okay, puppy!" This is one of the hardest habits to break. It's natural to try and calm and reassure the dog by petting, coddling, etc. But actually, what you are doing is reinforcing the fear.

Dog walks outside.

Dog gets nervous and starts to pant, pace and tuck her tail.

Human runs over, pets and loves on the dog, praising and telling her "It's okay."

The human sees this as attempting to calm the dog, let her know that you are there and will keep her safe. The dog sees this as, "Oh WOW it's scary out here! I will freak out! And this must be an appropriate response, because the Human is telling me I'm a good girl for behaving this way!"

 

Now, looking at this as your dog would, your house is confined and safe. She's learned to love it, and there's a ceiling, floor, furniture to hide under or on, humans to protect her, etc. The backyard is BIG. When she goes outside, the ceiling is gone. There are new smells and noises, and her senses are assaulted. She's overwhelmed. But these are all things that you, after livign with her for two years, already know.

 

So let's look at this as a human. Bottom line: she's got to suck it up and get over it. This is her life, and dogs spend time outdoors as well as indoors, and the outdoors will not kill her, so she's got to get over herself. Fortunately, you're the one with critical thinking skills and opposable thumbs, so you can help her.

 

First, no more rewarding cowardly behavior. Walk outside with her confidently, calmly, and like it's the most normal thing in the world. Which, of course, it is. Do not behave any differently towards her than you do when she's inside and calm. Take her for frequent little walks around the yard, walking confidently and quickly, with YOU setting the pace. Talk calmly and cheerfully to her, as if you're out for a lovely stroll. Sit in a lawn chair with her on a leash, and completely ignore her. REad a book. Ignore the dog. If she's not getting a reaction from you, chances are she'll settle down and wait. As soon as she settles down on the grass or patio or wherever, (like lays down, etc.) give her a bit of praise. "Good girl!" Don't get all hyper and excited with the praise-- stay calm and confident. Then go back to reading your book.

 

I have no idea how your backyard is set up, but if you could somehow make it a bit smaller with a temporary fence, that might help. Increase the size of her "outdoor world" in increments, so it's not so overwhelming at first. Make outside FUN FUN FUN, like a doggie-wonderland. I know this is easier said than done, because often, neurotic dogs will ignore all else but the source of their neurosis-- won't eat their favorite treat, etc. But try everything you can think of, and keep trying. Vary the setting and time. Take her outside for short periods at all times of the day. As she gets more comfortable out there, try ducking behind a woodpile or something else for a minute, not really hiding on purpose, but getting out her line of vision for a second. If she's okay with it, praise. If she freaks, go back to her calmly and just resume your sitting and reading.

 

Here's a key concept: FEED HER OUTSIDE. Every meal, Every day. No exceptions. At first, feed her right outside the backdoor. Then increase the distance and location as she becomes more confident.

 

Since the object is to get her to potty outside only, she's back to square one when it comes to potty training. Praise like crazy when she does her business outside, and inside, she's on a short leash. Literally. Pick up the puppy pads, and clean that carpet or rip it up if you can to get the odor eliminated. Try a full-strength odor eliminator, or liberal applications of "Nature's Miracle" which you can buy at a local PetCo or PetSmart. Personally, I think there are other products that work better, and you need serious help there....like ripping it up or something to remove the temptation.

 

Also, she's got to be crated when you can't supervise her closely. Bring the crate into your bedroom overnight, and do NOT, under ANY circumstances, cave in and let her out when she cries. You'll be immediately rewarding her whining with what she wants most-- to be let out of her crate. By the age of 2, her musculature is well-developed, and she should be just fine to wait all night long. Take her out to pee before you go to bed, and again first thing in the morning, but there should be no reason (barring a urinary tract infection or some other physiological problem) why she can't hold it all night. IMPORTANT: No water after, say, 8 pm. If she tanks up on water at 11 pm, she'll have a harder time holding it.

 

Just like with kids, consistency is key. YOu've GOT to get all family members on board with this. Make her sit outside with each family member (provided they're old enough to help in the training.) She's got to learn to feel comfortable out there with everyone, not just you.

 

Well, this was a lot.....hope it helps, hope you can understand my late-night ramblings! PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE FEEL FREE TO EMAIL ME OR PM ME--- I'm happy to help, and I really enjoy helping people deal with their dog issues.

 

Hugs, and again, thanks for saving this little one's life!

 

All Best,

Astrid

[Jean in Newcastle]

Try to teach her to pee "on command". Every time you take her outside tell her to "go pee" or our command "hurry up"! Esp. if you see her start to crouch, say, the command and then praise her up and down for going. This worked for one of our dogs (and boy is it convenient!) but didn't work for our other (dumber:tongue_smilie:) dog.

[Night Elf]

The other important thing to recognize is that every time the dog trembles, runs and hides, or otherwise freaks out because of an external stimuli (storm, weather, unfamiliar surroundings, etc.) the WORST thing you can do is exactly what comes naturally--- pet her, reassure her, coo "It's okay, puppy!"

 

Yes, I learned this when we got her. The kids have been great too. We just let her be when she feels that way. She's gotten better over time. She used to run and hide even with a light rain. Now she just sits next to me or my dd10 with her tongue hanging out, slightly trembling. Only thunder sends her under the bed.

 

Walk outside with her confidently, calmly, and like it's the most normal thing in the world.

 

I've been trying this more. We were opening the back door and saying 'outside'. On sunny days she goes right out. If it's any other weather, she doesn't want to go. If I put her on a leash, she'll go outside in any weather. But she has never gone potty while on the leash, no matter how much time I've spent with her outside. That's why we fenced our really small backyard. We thought maybe she just didn't like the leash and would go potty if she were free to roam.

 

Here's a key concept: FEED HER OUTSIDE. Every meal, Every day. No exceptions. At first, feed her right outside the backdoor. Then increase the distance and location as she becomes more confident.

 

Oh, I've never heard to do that. I'll start that tonight.

 

Personally, I think there are other products that work better, and you need serious help there....like ripping it up or something to remove the temptation.

 

We would absolutely love to replace our old yucky carpeting. Between the dog going indoors and our cats having issues, we have not wanted to spend the money to replace the flooring. For now, we've blocked her from going into those areas where she used to eliminate. I'm hoping that helps until we can get the flooring replaced.

 

Also, she's got to be crated when you can't supervise her closely. Bring the crate into your bedroom overnight, and do NOT, under ANY circumstances, cave in and let her out when she cries.

 

This has been the most difficult thing of all. I've thought of crating as caging a dog which seems cruel. I've been working on getting that thought out of my head. I'm happy to report that last night, she stayed in her crate without a sound from 10:00pm to 7:00am. When I took her out this morning, I gave her some positive attention. She didn't want to go outside into the backyard, so I fed her first and then put her on a leash to walk her. We were outside for 20 minutes. Then I took her into the backyard, removed the leash and sat quietly on the deck not staring at her. She eliminated in the yard and I did praise her. It's been a full 24 hrs. since she's used a puppy pad inside. That's a big thing for us.

 

If we are consistent with this, how long will it take for her to recognize that she must eliminate outside only? Is the crating only during the housetraining period or will this be a forever thing? I've owned only one other dog in my adult life. He was a beagle mix but a little larger than Bandit is who is also a beagle mix. I remember it took us a week to totally train him and he never had accidents in the house. We didn't have a crate for him and he did fine. He was not afraid of being outside like Bandit so this different set of circumstances has just thrown me for a loop.

 

I appreciate the help!

[mooooom]

Keeping her in a confined area of your house, and crated at night and anytime you are not home. If she is consistently going outside, with no accidents, I would gradually increase the amount of inside space she is allowed in, and see how that goes.

 

Crating at night and when you are not home - I would continue for up to a year, most dogs think of crates as a safe place - so it's really no tragedy for them.

 

My dog was terrifed of the crate when we got him - and we never pushed it because he had so many other fears. Now my dd is crate training him because she wants to take him to 4H dog camp. I'm probably the only mom in the world who couldn't care less about sending dd, 12, to camp - but is terrified of letting the dog go....:001_smile:

[astrid]

First off, CONGRATULATIONS ON YOUR FIRST NIGHT IN THE CRATE WITHOUT CRYING! THat's huge, because it proved to her (and you!) that she wouldn't die in there. Secondly, I URGE you not to look at crating as cruel. It's NOT! It's actually a wonderful tool. Dogs are denning animals. In the wild, they seek out small crevices, holes and caves in rocks in which to seek shelter, sleep and raise their young. This is what comes naturally to them. That's why dogs often seem to always want to be under the kitchen table when you're eating, or will crawl under the deck or porch stairs when outside. They're looking for that den, that safe area. Bandit isn't used to it, and I would wager, has developed some separation anxiety in the year you've worked on getting her to bond with you. That's totally normal, and really, an unavoidable side effect of getting her to trust you and want to be with you, as you said in your earlier post. But crating will help that too. So keep at it! Seriously--- you won the biggest battle last night! It will get easier from here.

 

But she has never gone potty while on the leash, no matter how much time I've spent with her outside. That's why we fenced our really small backyard. We thought maybe she just didn't like the leash and would go potty if she were free to roam.

 

 

 

She should learn to go potty on-leash. What if you're traveling? What if something happens to your fence? Don't worry about working on it until she's consistently going outside to potty. But while she's learning to potty outside, put it on a command. In our house, it's "do business!" We start when they're puppies. We let them out in the yard, and say over and over, "Bandit, do business!" "Do business!" As soon as they squat, we praise, "Good business!" While we're walking around and the dog is looking for a good spot to potty, I am the most BORING HUMAN IN THE WORLD. Walking around, saying "do business" in a monotone. As soon as they squat and do it, I instantly turn into THE QUEEN OF PUPPY FUN. It's important that your mannerism change when you praise, and do something they like (scratching, tug, whatever.) They eventually get it, and understand that in order for the FUN to happen, they've first got to perform. They will pair the command with the action to get to the fun. This is imperative for us because we travel with them and show them, and I want them to "do business" BEFORE we go in the nice grassy showring, not WHILE we're in there! :001_smile:

 

Another reason putting pottying on a command will be helpful for you is she'll learn to pair the action (pottying) and the location (OUTSIDE!) with the command (whatever you choose.)

 

Once she's got the command and is responding to it, put her on a leash and give her the command. Choose a time when you KNOW she's got to go, like first thing in the morning. She can't hold out too long then! :D Then praise like crazy! She'll get it.....give it some time and some consistency; make it a summer project, and you'll have a different dog by the end of the summer.

 

You're correct in restricting access to the soiled areas. Good job! With consistency, I'm sure she'll get it!

 

Hope this helps!

Astrid