Handwriting difficulties-a cause?

[FrogMom5]

My mom and I were discussing handwriting this evening. She said that she was taught to form her letters from the bottom up. :confused: She, her brothers, her parents and all of my family members from Mom's and my grandparents generations have lovely handwriting. Even my grandfather, who had learning disabilities, had nice writing. They all formed their letters from the bottom up. Mom said she was taught to rest her hand on the "fat pad," slant her paper and form letters bottom up. She said they were all taught cursive first. Apparently, my grandparents were never even taught printing.

 

My oldest has always struggled w/handwriting, especially cursive. He always wanted to form his letters from the bottom up. All the teachers and special ed. professionals said he had to form his lettters from the top down. He was also not allowed to rest his hand the way my mom describes. What do you all think? Could this be the problem? Were you all told your kids had to start at the top to form their letters? I'm wondering if this is why so many kids have difficulty with handwriting now. What do you all think of this?

Denise

[Dandelion]

That is so interesting!

 

My DS really struggles with handwriting as well, and is always trying to form letters from the bottom up (we use HWT and he's still on "Printing Power"). I'm constantly correcting him, because the curriculum stresses how important it is to learn to print each letter properly - from top down (as preparation for cursive).

 

I honestly don't remember how I learned to write. But I've heard from several people now that many kids find it easier to skip printing altogether and move straight to cursive.

 

Thanks for posting - looking forward to reading others' responses to this thread...

[wapiti]

One of my boys has trouble with printing and his teacher is having him write from the top i think (HWT). i'm teaching him cursive over the summer (slowly LOL) and i'm amazed at how effortless it has been for him and how nice his letters are - especially the size - even though his practice has not been consistent. That doesn't answer your question - except i don't understand how a person can write cursive any other way than from the bottom up (unless they are doing some sort of italic or something else less traditional).

 

Generally when i think of causes of handwriting issues i think of fine motor and vision.

 

:lurk5:

Edited July 25, 2011 by wapiti

[Laurie]

My mom and I were discussing handwriting this evening. She said that she was taught to form her letters from the bottom up. :confused: She, her brothers, her parents and all of my family members from Mom's and my grandparents generations have lovely handwriting. Even my grandfather, who had learning disabilities, had nice writing. They all formed their letters from the bottom up. Mom said she was taught to rest her hand on the "fat pad," slant her paper and form letters bottom up. She said they were all taught cursive first. Apparently, my grandparents were never even taught printing.

 

My mom and her relatives would mention the "Palmer method", but I never knew what it involved. They had beautiful handwriting, too.

I just found these digital images of the Palmer handwriting book. A few pages in there's a remarks section explaining the muscular movements that produce better handwriting. (And make sure to click on the box that will enlarge the images because the print is very small!)

From the Library of Congress:

 

http://lcweb2.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?collId=gdc3&fileName=scd0001_20060809007papage.db&recNum=0

[PeterPan]

My mom and her relatives would mention the "Palmer method", but I never knew what it involved. They had beautiful handwriting, too.

I just found these digital images of the Palmer handwriting book. A few pages in there's a remarks section explaining the muscular movements that produce better handwriting. (And make sure to click on the box that will enlarge the images because the print is very small!)

From the Library of Congress:

 

http://lcweb2.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?collId=gdc3&fileName=scd0001_20060809007papage.db&recNum=0

 

Laurie, that was exceptionally interesting and helpful. Thanks for posting!

 

So have you looked for anything in-print like this? Do the modern Palmer workbooks still teach this way? I couldn't find anything in-print of this exact book that looked good, so I'm fiddling with dragging the jpegs over to create a text file.

[Laurie]

Laurie, that was exceptionally interesting and helpful. Thanks for posting!

 

So have you looked for anything in-print like this? Do the modern Palmer workbooks still teach this way? I couldn't find anything in-print of this exact book that looked good, so I'm fiddling with dragging the jpegs over to create a text file.

 

You're welcome. :)

I'm so glad that Denise started this thread! My dd struggles with handwriting, and I was told by the occ. therapist to just forget about cursive and teach her keyboarding. Now I'm very intrigued with the Palmer emphasis on whole arm movements.

Last night I found the linked material on some ancestry blog to help people learn to read old style handwriting. I haven't had a chance to read the whole booklet or look for workbooks yet.

[FrogMom5]

Laurie - from the directions in the text, it sounds similar to what my mom was describing. Mom mentioned that students were told to write, not draw their letters. They were also taught to use their whole forearm, from elbow down, when writing. And, to slide their hand across the page as they wrote. It could be the same method.

 

The writing in the Palmer book looks a little more loopy or fancy than what I've seen Mom and her relatives use. However, my mom went through school in the 40's and early 50's in Illinois. Maybe they had adapted this same method. I'll have to dig out my grandparents writing samples but, Mom said their writing was a little fancier than what she was taught.

 

One more tidbit - Mom said they did warm-up exercises. Using straight pins dipped in ink, they drew counter clockwise circles, beginning on the bottom line. She said that fountain pens were too smooth for the practice sessions.

 

When she said they made the circles counter clockwise, that's when I began probing her for how she began her letters. When I mimic the writing, I begin at the top and go clockwise. She said no, begin at the bottom. When my high schooler comes back from his trip, I'll try this with him and see if it makes a difference. I will also be taking my kids to her and have her give them a lesson. I want to see this in action.

 

This is all very interesting to me. I hope we "discover" something that helps our children. If any of you try it, let us know how it worked.

Denise

[PeterPan]

You're welcome. :)

I'm so glad that Denise started this thread! My dd struggles with handwriting, and I was told by the occ. therapist to just forget about cursive and teach her keyboarding. Now I'm very intrigued with the Palmer emphasis on whole arm movements.

 

Doesn't that make you just wanna SPIT? I'm so tired of people saying our kids can't and just to give up. I mean I'm not meaning to be impractical and continue on when you've really hit a wall, but so often these walls are from not yet knowing what to do, not because they CAN'T. They just need a new way or method, something that therapist didn't know how to do.

[Laurie]

 

This is all very interesting to me. I hope we "discover" something that helps our children. If any of you try it, let us know how it worked.

Denise

 

I'm definitely going to try this with my dd. I just found another place to view the Palmer book:

http://www.archive.org/stream/palmermethodofbu00palmrich#page/n1/mode/2up

[Laurie]

Doesn't that make you just wanna SPIT? I'm so tired of people saying our kids can't and just to give up. I mean I'm not meaning to be impractical and continue on when you've really hit a wall, but so often these walls are from not yet knowing what to do, not because they CAN'T. They just need a new way or method, something that therapist didn't know how to do.

 

It's very confusing to me. You go to a professional for his/her expertise, but then the doubt can still creep in.

Keyboarding is fine, but my dd still has fine motor problems that don't go away when she's trying to learn to keyboard...it's just that the finished product is legible.

[PeterPan]

It's very confusing to me. You go to a professional for his/her expertise, but then the doubt can still creep in.

Keyboarding is fine, but my dd still has fine motor problems that don't go away when she's trying to learn to keyboard...it's just that the finished product is legible.

 

I think the trouble is that they're still GENERALISTS. They have a lot of pieces that fit a lot of situations, but then to fit our specific situation or delve into the nuances of our specific kids, that gets harder. And you'd think they would, especially given the price, but I don't think they're all equally committed, knowledge, have the same expertise, etc. They all bring something to the table, but I think ultimately *we* become the experts on our kids. So no, when an expert at this point says can't, I take that to mean can't with the help *they* have to give or with what *they* know.

[PeterPan]

http://www.iampeth.com/lessons_cursive.php

 

Look here! Tons of resources on the palmer method!

[FrogMom5]

Thank you Laurie and OhElizabeth for posting those links. I'm excited to try it!

 

We were told to stop practicing handwriting and teach my son typing. He can't type any better than he can write. Yep. It doesn't address the problem. And yes, I've wanted to spit often. If we had listened every time a professional told us our son couldn't do something or that we shouldn't try something, he wouldn't be hiking in New Mexico right now and having the time of his life. He also wouldn't be headed to college. So yes, spit.

Denise

[Laurie]

nm

Edited July 25, 2011 by Laurie

[Guest prudence12]

You can choose and develop your own handwriting. But perhaps your mom has some points she learned while developing hers. Just listen.

[ravinlunachick]

Laurie - from the directions in the text, it sounds similar to what my mom was describing. Mom mentioned that students were told to write, not draw their letters. They were also taught to use their whole forearm, from elbow down, when writing. And, to slide their hand across the page as they wrote. It could be the same method.

 

The writing in the Palmer book looks a little more loopy or fancy than what I've seen Mom and her relatives use. However, my mom went through school in the 40's and early 50's in Illinois. Maybe they had adapted this same method. I'll have to dig out my grandparents writing samples but, Mom said their writing was a little fancier than what she was taught.

 

One more tidbit - Mom said they did warm-up exercises. Using straight pins dipped in ink, they drew counter clockwise circles, beginning on the bottom line. She said that fountain pens were too smooth for the practice sessions.

 

When she said they made the circles counter clockwise, that's when I began probing her for how she began her letters. When I mimic the writing, I begin at the top and go clockwise. She said no, begin at the bottom. When my high schooler comes back from his trip, I'll try this with him and see if it makes a difference. I will also be taking my kids to her and have her give them a lesson. I want to see this in action.

 

This is all very interesting to me. I hope we "discover" something that helps our children. If any of you try it, let us know how it worked.

Denise

 

That sounds remarkably similar to the program I am using with my dd. I found this vintage book on Google Books, and she has had great success with it, despite her fine motor delays. DD has poor printing, but she does well with the lowercase letters. That is as far as we have come at this point.

 

http://books.google.com/books/about/Complete_manual_of_commercial_penmanship.html?id=Y6ABAAAAYAAJ

[FrogMom5]

Laurie - I feel like I offended you in my last post. When OhElizabeth expressed frustration, I guess it hit a nerve and years of frustration came pouring out. I spent years being criticized and even yelled at by medical professionals, teachers and family members. They blamed, ridiculed and were often condesending. I'm normally very polite and just ignore it. Today, I kind of blew. I apologize. Do whatever your dd needs to do to keep learning. It sounds like you are doing a great job. Trust your instincts over the opinions of others.

Denise

[Laurie]

Laurie - I feel like I offended you in my last post. When OhElizabeth expressed frustration, I guess it hit a nerve and years of frustration came pouring out. I spent years being criticized and even yelled at by medical professionals, teachers and family members. They blamed, ridiculed and were often condesending. I'm normally very polite and just ignore it. Today, I kind of blew. I apologize. Do whatever your dd needs to do to keep learning. It sounds like you are doing a great job. Trust your instincts over the opinions of others.

Denise

 

Not at all! If you noticed that I had deleted something, it wasn't in response to anything that you had written. I was too quick to post a link to a site that looked like a reprint of the Palmer booklet, but it turned out to be incomplete so I deleted it. It didn't occur to me to explain what I had deleted. Sorry for any misunderstanding. :001_smile:

[Embassy]

I'm going to use the Palmer method with both of my boys this coming school year. I've had difficulty with my younger son. He likes to make letters from the bottom and his grip is a work in progress.

 

I'm using this one http://www.iampeth.com/books/palmer_budget/palmers_budget_index.php but I like this one too http://www.iampeth.com/books/champion/the_champion_method_index.php.

 

They'll be using calligraphy pens too. Apparently they make it more difficult to fall into bad habits.

[merry gardens]

Doesn't that make you just wanna SPIT? I'm so tired of people saying our kids can't and just to give up. I mean I'm not meaning to be impractical and continue on when you've really hit a wall, but so often these walls are from not yet knowing what to do, not because they CAN'T. They just need a new way or method, something that therapist didn't know how to do.

Yes, and no. For one, I'm old-fashioned and I was taught that it's not lady-like to spit. :D

 

But, yes, I could spit too. I hate that some people want to give up on children. They're kids! People have been teaching kids for years--and now some people think it's okay to not teach some children basic skills, (like writing) just because it's not easy? There's something wrong with that picture.

 

Rather than saying we need a new method, maybe we need to rediscover what was right about some older methods. Large shoulder movements involve different muscles and different portions of the brain than small hand movements. There's some solid science now that demonstrates why some of those older teaching methods worked well.

[PeterPan]

I'm going to use the Palmer method with both of my boys this coming school year. I've had difficulty with my younger son. He likes to make letters from the bottom and his grip is a work in progress.

 

I'm using this one http://www.iampeth.com/books/palmer_budget/palmers_budget_index.php but I like this one too http://www.iampeth.com/books/champion/the_champion_method_index.php.

 

They'll be using calligraphy pens too. Apparently they make it more difficult to fall into bad habits.

 

Ok, save me a little work here. Why are you doing the champion book if you want palmer?

 

Well these handwriting threads just keep getting more interesting! :)

[Embassy]

Ok, save me a little work here. Why are you doing the champion book if you want palmer?

 

Well these handwriting threads just keep getting more interesting! :)

 

I should have said I'll instead of I'm. I will be using Palmer, but I like the other one too.:001_smile:

[simplysusan]

Thank you so much for this thread! My youngest (2nd grade) is left handed and blind in his right eye. He has such issues with printing and writing. He's always wanting to start at the bottom. In the past, we've use HWT and he ALWAYS wants to start at the bottom. I'm going to be checking out these links!

[ChristusG]

DD7's vision/auditory therapist drives me NUTS with this. She is so adamant that DD write her letters from the top down and not rest her hand while writing but instead pivot from her shoulder. She corrects her with this all the time. Honestly.....WHY???? As long as she writes the letters the correct way instead of backwards and writes them legibly, what does it matter??

 

I just want to roll my eyes every time her therapist says "the eye gate, the ear gate, and the motor gate all work together."

 

Also, when we first entered therapy, she was adamant that DD "choose a hand." At the time (she was 6), she was using both hands, with the left being a bit more dominant. The therapist told her this was a big no-no and made us choose a hand for DD to write with. We went with the left since she seemed to use it more. I didn't agree with it AT ALL. There certainly ARE people that use both hands equally.

 

I'm frustrated with her therapist....we're thinking of quitting. I guess her therapist would have a major cow if she saw how *I* write. I use a combination of capital letters and lowercase letters in the same word. It just seems to flow more easily that way. And you know what? No one cares!

[peacefully]

I am fascinated by this thread. I'm not sure that I understand what is the benefit of starting at the bottom though. Cursive First also teaches cursive letter formation this way. We just started, and ds is having a pretty easy time of learning formation so far. I've got my fingers crossed.

 

I have to tell you guys, I took a look at those Palmer programs, and frankly, they scare me. I don't think that I could do those Palmer exercises, much less ds. I just want him to have a nice, legible hand that's fast enough for note taking (not that he'll ever take extensive notes by hand, but still).

[PeterPan]

I have to tell you guys, I took a look at those Palmer programs, and frankly, they scare me. I don't think that I could do those Palmer exercises, much less ds. I just want him to have a nice, legible hand that's fast enough for note taking (not that he'll ever take extensive notes by hand, but still).

 

Well did you try them yet? I blew up large enough to see the instructions on the palmer business writing and spent some time going through how he says to hold the writing instrument, where to put the hands, etc. Once I understood all that, then I tried a couple of the exercises. I thought they actually felt really good, writing that way. I think he's onto something. I think regular people just get away with doing whatever. Then you get people with low tone who are prone to fatiguing, and doing things whatever way doesn't cut it. So you either try to get them so strong they can deal with it or try a smarter method.

 

Actually, right now I'm trying to figure out how we're going to GET DONE all these great ideas I have. :)

[peacefully]

You know, I saw the pages on posture and hand position, and I was impressed. Then I saw the loops and letters and freaked out. :homy: It's a beautiful script. I would love for ds to write like that. Heck, I would love to be able to write like that, but as you said OhE, I wouldn't know how I would be able to get it all done.

 

Okay, so folks are looking at the body mechanics more than the lettering exercises. I think I got it now. I'll take another peek and see if there's something that I can incorporate with ds's cursive practice.

[wapiti]

I'm not sure that I understand what is the benefit of starting at the bottom though.

 

When i learned cursive (basic traditional) all but a handful of letters start at the bottom. LOL i'm still trying to figure out what it means to start cursive letters at the top. To me that would seem more of an italic style.

[wapiti]

Well did you try them yet? I blew up large enough to see the instructions on the palmer business writing and spent some time going through how he says to hold the writing instrument, where to put the hands, etc. Once I understood all that, then I tried a couple of the exercises. I thought they actually felt really good, writing that way. I think he's onto something. I think regular people just get away with doing whatever. Then you get people with low tone who are prone to fatiguing, and doing things whatever way doesn't cut it. So you either try to get them so strong they can deal with it or try a smarter method.

 

Thans for this description!

 

Actually, right now I'm trying to figure out how we're going to GET DONE all these great ideas I have. :)

 

This is my biggest problem right now. And i just realized that school starts in fifteen days :tongue_smilie: (when the boys go bac to school dd10 will start 5th gr at home). Actually maybe i ought to start it sooner because i might miss a couple days when ds has his cardiac procedure. i'm starting to feel the pressure of the fact that most of my curricula were designed for a slightly longer school year than the 34 weeks we have (we were only doing light math and Latin during the summer).

 

DD10 "finished" learning cursive in May. She doesn't believe i'll require cursive for everything (that's not typed) but that's what i was doing when i was her age. We'll see.... the more she uses it the easier it will get.

[Laurie]

Well did you try them yet? I blew up large enough to see the instructions on the palmer business writing and spent some time going through how he says to hold the writing instrument, where to put the hands, etc. Once I understood all that, then I tried a couple of the exercises. I thought they actually felt really good, writing that way. I think he's onto something. I think regular people just get away with doing whatever. Then you get people with low tone who are prone to fatiguing, and doing things whatever way doesn't cut it. So you either try to get them so strong they can deal with it or try a smarter method.

:)

 

I started doing some of the drills myself. I've got arthritis starting in my thumb so I think it will be good to give my hand/fingers a break and let my arm take over.

I love looking at the classroom photos in the Palmer book! I wish I had one of those old-fashioned desks! When I was in grade school we at least had individual desks, and the school custodian always came into the classroom to adjust our desks according to our height. But when I was teaching, the students shared tables.