Need serious help with math -- Please :-)

[DaisyMay]

I really have to make my decision on math for next year, but I can't seem to decide! I'm hoping a little insight from the Hive might help :001_smile:.

 

Here's the situation: My daughter (12) is going into 7th grade. She's not mathy AT ALL! We used TT7 last year and she did pretty well. She really liked it, but I sat with her each day and walked her through problems when she struggled. I don't know how she would have done without me. I'm not convinced she really mastered it although her scores were always good.

 

I was planning on doing TT pre-algebra, but am not really sure she's ready for that yet. Not only that, but her ITBS score in math plummeted 10 percentile points with TT. Her score was still good with an 89th percentile in math, but she has been at the 99th percentile for the past 3 years. That has given me real cause to wonder if TT is the best choice.

 

We were using BJU with the dvds. They confused her so I would often teach the lesson myself even though I really stink at math :tongue_smilie:. There also wasn't enough review. We tried CLE for a bit, but that really didn't work for her. There was too much going on in each lesson. We are doing MUS Zeta during the summer as a change of pace and she's doing fine. My concern about MUS is that it might not be enough for high school.

 

She's always done several supplemental things for math as well. This past year she did TT7, as well as the Spectrum 6 math book, Daily Word Problem, and Math Minute. With math being her weak point, I try to approach it from different angles.

 

She prefers to focus on one topic at a time, but she also needs lots of review. I've looked at MM, but we tried one of the topic workbooks and that really confused her. She is not a math-thinker, if that makes sense. In reviewing the 6th grade MM book, it looks like there are a lot of problems and that she would be overwhelmed.

 

So I'm thinking my options right now are to 1. Use TT prealgebra and go slowly if needed. 2. Use BJU Math 7 and teach her myself (yikes!!!!), 3. Use MUS pre-algebra along with TT.

 

Cost of programs isn't really an issue, because I already have the ones I'm considering (that right there proves I need help lol!) I just wish someone would tell me what to do! :tongue_smilie:

 

Thanks in advance!

Gayle

[Momling]

I'd hesitate to make curriculum changes based on percentile ranks of a standardized test. They're just not that accurate. And anyway the 89th percentile is very high. Plus, she may have had a good day or a bad day. And really... what does it matter?

 

 

I would probably stick with TT if it's working for your daughter. What makes you say she's not ready for pre-algebra? Pre-algebra is really the time to review all of elementary school math and get ready for algebra. It sounds like that's exactly what she needs.

 

The only other thing that I can think of is the "Keys to" series. I've used it with remedial high school students and was pretty impressed by its gentle, incremental progression.

[PeterPan]

Well it sounds like the BJU had been working for you well before and resulting in good scores. For the books through gr 6 there are numerous supplemental workbooks. Sounds like you weren't doing them. They're redoing the elementary levels and putting those supplements onto a cd in the tm (from what people have said) to encourage people to use them. All I know is we used the supplements (Spring Into Action, etc.) to great benefit.

 

The gr 7 changes things a bit. The supplemental workbook was very different. The textbook itself has a LOT of problems. If you already have it, you can see that for yourself. Yes, MM is very good but it gives their little brains a real workout. I can understand what you're saying about it not being a good fit.

 

How about some other options? Have you thought about Lial's BCM (Basic College Math)? It's a nice blend of gr 7 and pre-algebra math, enough that you can apparently go from there into algebra 1. A lady on the high school board even does online classes using it. It would be an exceptionally good choice for you. I got the Lial's pre-algebra, though I confess I haven't even looked at it much yet. You could try your library system to see if they could get a copy for you to look at. Or buy, as it's inexpensive. So there's a practical option that won't make her brain fry and will get her through pre-algebra, along with the option for an online class.

 

Option two, same vein, is the pre-algebra by Streeter that Derek Owens uses for his online classes. I think I read here on the boards that he is putting his online classes into a dvd format. He also has syllabi you can buy with the homework assignments, class notes, etc. So that's another vein to pursue. I got Streeter's pre-algebra to compare to the Lial, which again obviously I haven't done except with a quick glance.

 

I have the BJU 7 and tried it with my dd. It has sort of a meanness to it (cruelty) where it makes the problems longer and more involved without having a reason or an interest factor. It's fine, and I even like it (I like all things BJU). But it sucked the joy from my dd. Streeter and Lial won't do that. I'll have to look at them again, but Lial I think had unbelievably practical, interesting word problems. Streeter was more axiomatic, which I liked. But like you, I think we'll continue our habit of doing the same thing lots of ways.

[Hunter]

I won't go into all the specifics of testing, but don't EVER pick curriculum based on test scores, unless your ONLY goal is higher test scores, and even then you will need to study the test itself and make sure it is being given in the optimal circumstances possible.

 

For example, sometimes there is a choice about what level of the test is given at a certain age. Lower functioning students will score higher on the lower level test, and higher functioning students will score higher on the higher level test.

 

Without your knowledge she might not have been given a test with a high enough ceiling to allow her anything other than a perfect score to get a 99. Maybe if she qualified for the next level up, she could have made 20 mistakes and still have gotten a 99%, because she was answering so many questions that most children her age cannot answer at all.

 

My son was gifted but sloppy, I made sure he was always tested with the highest level he was qualified to take, that had the highest ceilings.

[DaisyMay]

I've aways tested her here at home with the ITBS on grade level. She's a good test taker. My concern with the drop in score is that nothing else dropped. She had a good day that day so I don't think that was it. Her main drop was in problem solving. That, coupled with me having to walk her through at least something in math every day, makes me wonder if she is understanding the concepts well enough.

 

With her not being mathy I just didn't know if it would be in her best interest to be doing algebra in 8th grade. I don't want her to struggle in the future. I guess TT is a bit behind, though, so maybe it won't be the intensity that I'm expecting.

 

Gayle

[SailorMom]

I second Lials BCM - then followed with Algebra in 8th (Foersters is what we're using for algebra).

 

I have heard that TT is behind a bit - but have never personally used them....

[PeterPan]

Well if you're not comfortable with where she's at, want some review, and don't want to plunge into something like BCM, then I'd back up and look at something like MM. I'm doing it with my dd, and it's fabulous. Great thought process, lots of explanation clearly spelled out, and TONS of practice. My dd is similar to yours in that she gets good test scores but isn't a math whiz or next Einstein or anything. And yes, the first time we did standardized testing we had that same issue with the spread between her computation and conceptual. (They were pretty much like yours as a matter of fact!) That's why when people say they skip problems in MM I don't get it. We do ALL the problems. And she tests great.

 

From MM6, the dc could very comfortably go into pre-algebra. Like you're saying, I don't think it's a rush so much as wanting to make sure you're very, very solid on the basics. And while you're going back and repeating a level like that, you might like to throw in some Hands-on Equations, just to keep things spicy. The kit comes with a dvd that makes it exceptionally easy to implement. You do nothing but watch the videos and watch her solve the problems. The thought process is good, and some of the whizzes on the hs board highly recommend it. :)

 

As far as open-ended tests, yes, we did the Woodcock-Johnson III this year. It WAS fascinating, definitely. It can test from age 2 to adult and is done in under 2 hours with an administrator, one-on-one. For my dd it was good because it lessened the writing, fatigue, and attention components that affect her. We paid $75, so about the same price as the ITBS.

 

BTW, don't sweat it if you would have to back up for MM. For my dd it was a good thing, solidifying things she got rusty on during a long math break with vision therapy. An older student goes through the material much more quickly than a young student who has never seen it before.

[trailofsparks]

VideoText Algebra is very strong conceptually. I am going through this w/my dc.

 

I would encourage you, as OhElizabeth did, to remediate your dd if need be. It can be done quickly when children are older. Laying a solid foundation in math is essential for continued learning.

 

When you say you had to walk your dd through all her math, a question I would ask myself is: did I do the work for her AT ALL? If you did, or if she depended on you to arrive at answers, definitely remediate.

[DaisyMay]

I'll have to check out Lial's BCM (does edition matter with this?)& VideoText. VideoText is one that has always kind of scared me to look it. It looks hard to me for some reason.

 

If I were to consider MM, is there a placement test? I would think she would go into 6, but 5 might be a better review.

 

I have the older edition of BJU Math 7 and I don't really like the looks of it. I don't know what it is, but it just doesn't appeal to me. I've considered getting the new edition, but don't really want to spend the money for it unless I'm certain it's significantly better.

 

I've never heard of Hands on Equations. I will check that out!

 

I think she's good with the basics, but not especially strong. I don't know how she would have done without me in math. Probably not as well :tongue_smilie:.

 

Gayle

[DaisyMay]

I just looked at the Hands on Equations website. Wow! That looks really neat! I am going to have to learn more about it :001_smile:. I think that would be a great supplement for my dd and my son (13) as well. Thanks for the recommendation!

 

Gayle

[EKS]

I've aways tested her here at home with the ITBS on grade level. She's a good test taker. My concern with the drop in score is that nothing else dropped. She had a good day that day so I don't think that was it. Her main drop was in problem solving. That, coupled with me having to walk her through at least something in math every day, makes me wonder if she is understanding the concepts well enough.

 

With her not being mathy I just didn't know if it would be in her best interest to be doing algebra in 8th grade. I don't want her to struggle in the future. I guess TT is a bit behind, though, so maybe it won't be the intensity that I'm expecting.

 

Gayle

 

I have a hard time wrapping my mind around the idea that someone who is terrible at math could be getting scores in the 99th percentile on the ITBS. I'm guessing that she is "mathy-er" than you think.

 

I'll second the suggestion to consider Lial's BCM if you think she needs more review.

[DaisyMay]

I have a hard time wrapping my mind around the idea that someone who is terrible at math could be getting scores in the 99th percentile on the ITBS. I'm guessing that she is "mathy-er" than you think.

 

 

I know what you mean. The thing is that she is a good test taker. I was also a good test taker and could guess the correct answer most of the time. My other two children are not like that though:tongue_smilie:.

 

I'll have to check out Lial's BCM. I am liking what I see with Hands on Equations.

Gayle

[PeterPan]

I have a hard time wrapping my mind around the idea that someone who is terrible at math could be getting scores in the 99th percentile on the ITBS. I'm guessing that she is "mathy-er" than you think.

 

I'll second the suggestion to consider Lial's BCM if you think she needs more review.

 

It's not that hard to fathom. My dd isn't a whiz either, and she is usually right there in her math percentiles. The BJU stuff is good (at least through 6th), and she had both the dvds *and* her mom working with her to make sure she got it. She went to a more spartan curriculum with a lot less practice, less conceptual instruction, less everything, and her scores went down. It's not rocket science.

 

I'm not trying to say TT is inferior, but that BJU just happens to be a really solid, on-grade-level curriculum that, when taught well, can give really good results. That's what she was seeing. And it just takes more brainpower and more effort from some kids than others to get those results, hence being not mathy but good scores.

 

But yes, she's clearly quite bright. That's why you don't want to see those scores going down like that. Yes, there's a placement test for MM.

[cloversandlions]

Have you looked at Khan Academy videos? Perhaps it would be a good supplement for topics on which she needs a little extra, or even just a different, explanation?

[NittanyJen]

I also wouldn't be freaked out by the number of problems in MM.

 

Just decide how many you DO want her to do, and cross out the rest. Or draw a box around the ones you want her to do and tell her to ignore the ones that aren't boxed in-- if she needs more review later, you can go back and have her do the other half or how many you left.