Content Subjects for High School: Coverage-based or Interest-Led

[birchbark]

I'm beginning to look ahead to high school and poke my head into this forum. I started out HSing from a coverage-based WTM perspective, and that is how I plan to school through the middle grades. But I recently read through the big Depth vs. Breadth thread as well as some recent ones in a similar vein, and I'm seriously rethinking my ideals for high school. I always love getting input from experienced HSers, especially if you have graduates. Please post your thoughts, pros/cons, experiences, whatever!

[angela in ohio]

I voted 'Mix of the Two.' I have a set core of courses that I require (which corresponds with what the state and most colleges also require) and then dc have some individualized courses based on their specific career interests.

[Corraleno]

I'm definitely towards the "interest-led" end of the spectrum, but we do a mix of the two, both across subjects and within subjects, and I plan to continue a "hybrid" approach through HS. Since you're not getting many responses here, I'll post what I’m thinking about for HS, to give you at least an idea of what that could look like:

 

Science

DS will probably do Chemistry & Physics @CC to get those out of the way; both are prereq’s for Biology and Geology majors. His other sciences will likely be Biology, Geology, and Paleontology, with a mix of textbook study, TC courses, and hands-on fieldwork. If he still plans on a Paleo career, he can do a senior project involving original field research and some kind of presentation of the results (submit to a journal, poster session at annual Vert Paleo meeting, etc.).

 

History/Social Studies

I'm leaning towards doing a survey of World History in 9th grade using Felipe Fernandez-Armesto’s intro college text, The World. It’s an unusual text in that it focuses less on names and dates and battles and more on interactions between people, between cultures, and between humans and the environment (e.g. topics like trade, migrations). DS can choose topics to pursue in further depth; I’d particularly like to use “living books†on topics like the history/impact of trade in sugar, tea, spices, etc., but that will be up to him. We’ll also do a year of US History with the TC course as a spine (the 84-lecture adult course, not the “HS level†one), plus lots of documentaries and additional reading on his choice of topics. The other courses may be more specifically interest-led, like History of Science, World Religions, Ancient Civilizations, Anthropology/Archaeology, Contemporary World Issues, etc. One could just as easily do this sort of thing with chronological history, though, using an overview for a spine (even spreading it over 4 years) and adding “living books†on topics of special interest. The only difference between this and a packaged curriculum is that the student chooses the topics to pursue in greater depth rather than the curriculum provider.

 

Math

Since he’s headed for a science career, we'll use standard textbooks, followed by Calc @CC.

 

English/Literature

I'd like him to do a general comp course and a technical writing course @CC, which gets two Gen Ed requirements out of the way. I found an online comp course from an in-state CC that seems to focus more on research papers than literary analysis, and the Tech Writing course would hopefully align with his senior paleo research paper. We’ll do literature thematically rather than chronologically; two themes I’m thinking of that I know will appeal to him are The Hero’s Journey in World Literature (to coincide with World History and probably World Religions in 9th) and Utopia/Dystopia (maybe with American History in 10th). We might also do some 1/2 credit courses like Shakespeare or Greek Tragedy or Science Fiction or Existential Literature, or whatever seems interesting.

 

Foreign Language

He chose Greek, and if he sticks with it we’ll stay with Lukeion through Greek IV, and then maybe have him do a summer intensive that will give him college credit for Greek 202 (fulfilling the foreign language core requirement @ the state uni).

 

Art

He does a lot of drawing on his own, but he'd like to take some outside classes if he has time. He also has a very cool DVD course on drawing dinosaurs, done by a leading paleo illustrator, that covers anatomy (skeletal structure, muscle groups, ways of moving, etc) in detail. We cover art history informally, through documentaries and museum visits.

 

Electives

Techy things like programming or robotics, or specialized courses in topics he’s particularly interested in like Classical Warfare or Evolutionary Biology. I also think it's important to fit in a philosophy class or two, although I will definitely try to tailor it to his interests, e.g. maybe a half-credit in Greek Philosophy (definitely an interest) and another in Modern Philosophy based on the TC course "From Descartes to Derrida" (which I think will eventually interest him, lol). Or maybe he could do the IB's Theory of Knowledge course.

 

This may all change sometime in the future, but I thought it might help you visualize what a “blended†approach could look like. I hope you get some more responses!

 

Jackie

[8filltheheart]

I'm beginning to look ahead to high school and poke my head into this forum. I started out HSing from a coverage-based WTM perspective, and that is how I plan to school through the middle grades. But I recently read through the big Depth vs. Breadth thread as well as some recent ones in a similar vein, and I'm seriously rethinking my ideals for high school. I always love getting input from experienced HSers, especially if you have graduates. Please post your thoughts, pros/cons, experiences, whatever!

 

 

I'm not sure about the specifics of your question. Are you asking about how courses are completed or which courses are selected?

 

When my kids are in 8th grade down, their science is more interest led in that we don't use textbooks and they select the topics they want to study (but they do study them every single day.)

 

In high school we do transition to textbooks. However, w/in the bounds of bio and chem being required, they do get to choose what other science courses they want to take. But as far as what goes into making that selection high school credit worthy, I dictate what is studied and done.

[birchbark]

Are you asking about how courses are completed or which courses are selected?

 

 

Which courses are selected.

[birchbark]

Thanks for your post, Jackie. I was especially hoping to hear from you.

[regentrude]

I have a pretty good idea what courses my kids must cover for high school in order to graduate with the kind of education I consider necessary, and I do mandate content.

The kids can still work according to their interests; for instance, we will tailor the reading lists and the focus areas of their history studies to take these into account (think DS interested in military history, DD more iterested in history of arts nd architecture). They can also choose their electives to reflectteir unique interests.

But for the core subjects, they will have to cover a certain content in math, sciences, foreign languages and humanities, with a certain level of rigor - whether they favor the particular subject or not.

[8filltheheart]

Which courses are selected.

 

Then my answer is a mix. There are certain courses that are inflexible, but there are others where I let them have input on what they want to study. Electives are selected based on discussions about what they want to pursue/interests as an opportunity to explore topics more deeply and decide how serious that interest might be.

 

For example, I let them choose amg various history topics (my 9th grader this past yr studied world geography, a course that none of my older kids took.) My 11th grader took AP psy, another course unique to her.

 

We look at the unis they are considering, state graduation requirements of peers, possible majors, etc and then select accordingly. However, w/in the course, the subjects are pretty typical in how the material is covered.

[Nan in Mass]

I voted mix of the two. A few conversations with colleges, with more alternativy type colleges, showed me fairly quickly that what colleges really want is specialization ON TOP OF well-rounded-ness. And they define well-rounded (in general) as 4 years of math, English, and 3 (more or less) of science, social studies, and foreign language. The exception seems to be if you are applying for a BFA program. They recognize that the absolutely humungous amount of practice time necessary to build those skills will mean that the student doesn't have time to be well-rounded and that they tend to refuse grin to do things like math beyond a certain point and can get away with doing that because the arts are still an area where one can succeed without college. At least that was my impression. Having determined that mine weren't going to go to college for music or art, we decided that we didn't have all that much choice about the well-roundedness. Besides, I believe in well-roundedness and not closing doors, at least to a certain point, especially for those students who are not going into liberal arts. It seemed/seems likely that mine wouldn't, which meant/means that *I* am the last literature class my children are likely to have. However, because *I* am the last literature class, that gives me a good deal of freedom. I don't have to make my courses match up with another system at any point. Instead, I get to work towards making literature something that one would want to keep doing one's whole life. In a really good class, the two of those things would be combined, but it would be hit or miss with our public school (lots of hits there but a few pretty bad misses too). History works the same way. We use community college as a bridge between my free-er science courses and technical school. The end result of all this is that we do everything but some things we do badly. Sigh. On the other hand, I haven't ruined anything for mine. And hopefully, (hopefully hopefully) they have enough academic skills to succeed in college and their technical jobs. When it comes to skills, I have tried hard for well-rounded. (Well, except for spelling. We haven't been willing to put in the enormous time to fix that all the way.) I am willing to specialize as far as content goes but not as far as basic skills go. The limiting factor with skills is my own knowledge and teaching ability. I should also add that when it comes to well-rounded, the college definition and my own definition are not the same. My definition is much broader and includes things like the ability to read music, make a fire, draw, sew, use power tools, sail a boat, read Shakespearian English, travel, sing in parts, recognize our local flora and fauna, swim, speak well, deal with an outboard, and think globally rather than insularly, to name a few (the list is a pretty long one GRIN).

-Nan

Edited June 26, 2011 by Nan in Mass

[Jenny in Florida]

Well, I voted "Mix of the two" before I read that you were actually asking about which courses and not how they are completed.

 

But I think my answer is pretty much the same.

 

When my daughter did high school work, I required that she cover the basics: English, math, history, science, something arts related and a foreign language. She had a fair amount of input into the specifics of each category and, in addition to two years of Latin, was allowed to pick her foreign languages. We also created a series of theatre classes that aligned with her history study each year and with her interests. And she was allowed to choose anything else she wanted to study on top of those things.

 

My son will be starting a full high school schedule in the fall. This time, I'm retaining "control" of only three subjects: English, math and foreign language. (Even then, he gets a lot of say in the specifics of those subjects, but I will plan what he does and assign tasks.) We are requiring that he study science, geography, world history and world religions on his own but giving him just a very loose framework for how to do that. And he will be allowed to choose anything else he wishes to study in addition.

[Guest]

Definitely a mix as far as what's required, although given her maturity level, dd would probably now even pursue on her own requirements such as math and foreign language. She is responsible for choosing the materials she uses for those two subjects, as she will work these through herself until she reaches a point where she needs to take a college level class for better understanding.

 

English: Dd is a voracious reader, so she's simultaneously following several interconnecting strands of literary exploration. She reads selected classics to correspond with her history; this is the literary history element of her education and I'm in charge of that. We watch lectures from several Teaching Company DVDs to accompany them. She also reads any old classics because she can't wait until they come up in chronological order. She devours science fiction and fantasy. And she is beginning a spread-out credit focusing on British drama.

 

History: She chooses the time periods and focus she wants. I try to sneak in backfilling on events and eras she is not very interested in (such as getting to some Greek drama after she found and loved Stephen Sondheim's musical The Frogs). We watch a lot of Teaching Company courses and historical fiction (dd's choices), with some current trade books on special history topics chosen by both of us in turn (the sugar trade, the politics of tea in the British empire, the spy system in Elizabethan England, etc.).

 

At the moment she is so interested in economics that we'll probably work that in at some point; and she is fascinated by different governments and their workings -- I'm thinking of a year or two in which we link practically all subjects through an exploration of science fiction, the related history of science, bioethics, physics, comparative government, linguistics, and film.

 

Math: Dd chooses her textbook depending on what she thinks will work best for her. We watch documentaries dealing with mathematical topics (NOVA, a Terry Jones special on numbers, things like that) and read a few books about math for the general public, such as The Numbers Game and Proofiness.

 

Latin: This is dd's choice. She's using Latin For the New Millenium.

 

Science: This past fall and winter dh, a chemistry professor, did a series of labs and field trips with dd. Dd has strong leanings toward physics, so we'll most likely go minimal for biology in order to give her more time for what she has the strongest inclination and ability for. Again, I allow her substantial input into the choice of materials to work with. She has chosen textbooks and Teaching Company DVDs, lots of museum visits, documentaries. When she's sixteen, she can work in dh's lab.

 

Electives: Like Jackie, we'll do some techy electives to go with the physics. Dd has had a work-study internship with her riding instructor for the past couple of years (she was chosen and asked to do this, but it was her choice whether to go through with it). She has chosen to study the history of musical theater quite intensively this year, and will go on with various aspects of that plus continue with her interest in drama next year.

 

Note: I've worked very hard, after a horrible experience dd had in a fancy private school to which she won a scholarship, to help dd regain her love of learning -- particularly literature and history, which were practically destroyed for her by the school's particular methods (they weren't bad or inappropriate or anything, but they certainly did not fit her in any way and she was bored out of her wits despite the program's supposed rigor). Although I tend to think in terms of subject areas and fulfilling some basic requirements, dd does not; nor do I particularly want her to: she doesn't think about "what I want to do for history this year," but simply goes after these materials because she's interested and motivated. Science, math, and Latin and the only things she tends to think of in terms of "studying" or "covering."

[FaithManor]

I am in the Regentrude, Nan camp. Some courses are mandated, others have some flexibility. Nan is right that college admissions, and in particular, the merit money end of that, has gotten heady. Whereas, in my day, well-roundedness with one hobby pursued to some degree of tenancity and advancement plus some other activities or volunteerism was enough, it is not now. It actually irks me because I sometimes wonder if they have any idea just how hard it is for most children to come through the traditional educational system in America and be well-rounded and specialized at the same time.

 

So, that is where we are...well-rounded classical education with mandates from mom and dad who see the big picture, but then working mommy/daddy tail off to afford electives and activity opportunities for specialization and advanced skill building in areas of passion.

 

It only takes 20 credits to graduate from a Michigan public school. Ds will end up with 27-28 credits. Electives really build up around here. The sixteen core credits and foreign language, plus at least one year of logic are not negotiable.

 

Ds's electives will include two years of art history and "The Art of Color" - MIT opencourseware, Introduction to Java - MIT, Java - MIT, Kitchen Chemistry - MIT, Practical Drafting, one year of Latin - okay, another mandate - Introduction to Geology - MIT...He's been an integral part of choosing these except the Latin, though he enjoys Latin and is not complaining. He also gets to choose his foreign language - German - which is causing me to weep and gnash teeth!

 

Faith

[elegantlion]

I'll be in the mix camp. For instance, my hope/requirement will be 4 years of Latin. After we finish with Latin Alive, he'll have choice where to go. Same for a modern foreign language. He wants Japanese.

 

I have certain requirements I want, ones that fit his line of thinking, mostly logic/philosophy.

 

For history I have a plan for Ancients and US, but I'll let him pick the focus for Middle Ages.

 

Aside from Ancient lit, I'll give him some say in choices.

 

Apart from the core subjects, he's interested in computers. He'll have control on how to fulfill those requirements, with some guidance from me.

 

I remember getting choices in high school. I picked every history and art class possible. I would have taken those to the exclusion of everything else if given the choice. I'm hoping to have at least one credit per year to be totally his choice of subject and content.

[Ester Maria]

I voted coverage-based, though there is much flexibility involved.

 

We require a systematic, by-the-book study of Italian and Latin with literature (+ Greek and French with literature, if applicable), History and Art History, Math and Sciences, and Philosophy. In other words: there is a definite, prescribed content that has to be covered in those areas, more or less definite bibliography to go through (usually there is at least some leeway, in literature, and some room for flexibility, but not too much), and any modifications of those areas can be exlusively in the direction of adding more, i.e. broadening / deepening, NOT at the expense of the standard curriculum. Those are our "no compromise" areas and the standard school areas.

 

That being said, both of our daughters have, with time, learned how to adjust the required areas to their interests, particularly if advanced. Our middle daughter does her Math via AoPS and studies college Biochemistry (individual work, tutoring, online work and DH helps, too). They are both rather advanced with regard to the typical classics sequence, so for at least a year or two more we can mix and match what they like and what they prefer doing into Latin and Greek, and even if we miss some fundamentals along the way, the school sequence will make us make up for it at some point. Our eldest has some early background in Philosophy (which she is not even supposed to study yet), due to having tied some of it to classics or Judaics, and in Art History (which she also is not even supposed to study for a whole year yet, but she opted for an approach which is more in line with the History rotation). They both have (had) some extra sciences in English. So, even the standard progression they should go through is in many ways easened already. But nope, if it were not, we would not back off of it, because we consider it crucial.

 

And then there are flexible, not-a-hill-to-die-on areas, where they have much greater say in what they want to do, and which are generally non-intense areas:

 

We do require Fine Arts, even if not for credit, but not specified, so our older daughter is into music (violin + a whole bunch of theory that goes along with it), and our middle daughter, who is also very visual, has turned to drawing several years ago and is progressing nicely - she is now moving towards more technical drawing, graphics and even architecture, which is partially required by the standard requirements for her too (as she has a more elaborate version of art history that focuses on the architecture more). So, both girls have some sort of regular instruction in those areas and they work on it. Art History is mandatory for both, while Music History gets done more informally, squeezed in along the rest, and they both get some cultural exposure to arts (via opera, museums, galleries, etc.).

 

English is another "free" area - the only thing we require is that they come up with something which is comparable with American PS experience. They can organize it as they wish: chronologically with focus on the anglophone literature (of course, there is no "cheating", they cannot do Ancients both in Italian and English, for example!), via national literatures (a year or two of British Lit, a year of American Lit, etc.), via thematic units, or even a mix of all of that, if they wish, as long as they make sure to cover some landmarks and end up with a comparable educational experience. Our older daughter seems to be favoring national literatures approach (will continue and do British Literature next year, though she is still not sure if she will pick a specific focus or that will be more along the lines of a historical survey), the middle one seems to favor a thematic approach. English literature definitely not being a hill to die on for us (as opposed to Italian, Latin or even French literature), pretty much whatever they come up with will be above and beyond what they are "supposed" to do (assuming they will graduate within the Italian and/or the French system alone, which we are still not sure about as they might also wish to switch to the American system for higher education - so this is a good way of keeping their doors open). They do not really dedicate as much time to this, but as long as they regularly read in English and discuss it with somebody or write about it now and then, I am fine with it.

 

When it comes to Hebrew, our approach is in between Latin and English, I would say: there is a definite set of things I would like them to go through, but I am taking into account their individual interests, too. We approach this area in multiple ways: we do literature, but we also do layers of language starting with the Bible, we do Jewish literature not necessarily confined to the language (so, we may tie Yiddish literature in translation there too, or even via English, but write about it or discuss it in Hebrew), then we still study the language, especially our middle daughter whose forte it has traditionally not been, which requires some typical foreign language approach as well... Basically, it is a mixed, rather fluid area, but I am confident that we can satisfy the cultural and literacy expectations while customizing this area maximally to each of them. We use a plethora of Israeli resources, living books, lectures in Hebrew about Hebrew, or just plain materials about their interests in Hebrew (for example, I may allow my middle daughter some time to explore science textbooks in Hebrew - but while still requiring my minimum for literature and language).

 

And finally, there are Judaics, our multidisciplinary area in which Hebrew language, Jewish history, Biblical and rabbinical scholarship, religion, law and sociology meet. We allow it to be explored from multiple angles, especially since this is a non-credit home study so we are not bound by any specific curriculum or bibliography / content list. We research what is done in Jewish day schools, see what may be applicable for us, see what can be accessed online, talk to kids about what is specifically relevant or of interest to them, we talk about what is important to us, and we work out a compromise. Our children differ greatly regarding how far, and in which aspects, they wish to pursue this area, but we make sure to cover the "legalistic" minimum, the history minimum, and of course Biblical literacy. Judaics are mostly studied in Hebrew, sometimes in English, and we often draw from many fields - so this is an area in which Slifkin's take on evolution compared to Jewish religious sources can appear just as much as legal minutiae can. Lately our children have been dealing with the relationship between science and religion from many angles, as well as with some Biblical prophets; next year they want to broaden their studies to include Aramaic, the tradition of Biblical translation, more legal aspects, and some contemporary ethics in light of the Jewish tradition.

 

I would not call our Judaic education rigorous (:D) by any stretch of imagination; yet, for our situation and our purposes, it is fine and a source of great joy and minimal frustrations.

Our regular education is guided by the idea of coverage, principally, but coverage itself is also a tool to be able to actually build on your own - decontextualized, random pieces of information are a mess; we find that by ensuring a structure we are actually allowing our children more freedom with their interests as we are making sure they have the tools to study them (within or outside the boundaries of that "prescribed" educational experience). There is no way our daughters could deal specifically with evolution in science vs. in Jewish scholarship if they did not have a solid scientific foundation, for example, or deal with Biblical translations and the history of layers of interpretation if they did not know their basic Hebrew and basic Biblical "stories" cold. Many of their interests are accumulative in nature, rather than "touristic" and easy-fix ones, so they need a whole set of skills drawn from many areas to be able to approach them and those skills we wish to build by systematic education - while, at the same time, allowing time and space for individual expression.

 

So, I generally vote coverage-based, providing the necessary tools of all disciplines that can easily be built on later.

[ereks mom]

I voted 'Mix of the Two.' I have a set core of courses that I require (which corresponds with what the state and most colleges also require) and then dc have some individualized courses based on their specific career interests.

 

This is exactly what I do. I have certain required courses, and the dc get to choose a few electives in their areas of interest. If there's wiggle room in the required courses, they get to choose from among a list of acceptable topics. For instance, ER was very interested in space science at one time, and one year, he chose to study aeronautics and robotics instead of doing a more traditional science course. Another year, EK chose to take home economics, and she learned the basics of cooking and sewing as part of her coursework that year.

[birchbark]

Thank you all for taking the time to answer. For all of you that do a mix, how do you determine what the non-negotiables are?

[Nan in Mass]

GRIN Anything that I think they will need for survival is non-negotiable. I think about different areas: emotional survival, survival in a job, survival in college, survival while playing hard in the woods, mountains, lakes, oceans, and foreign countries, emotional survival, etc.. As far as school goes, I tend to focus on the skills I think they will need for their emotional health (like music and an ability to escape into a book and an ability to contribute to the world) and the skills I think they will need for college. This tends to be a longer list than the one for our town's high school requirements or college entrance requirements, so I just have to figure out how to translate the mishmash of things we do for the first into something traditional-looking for the second. I do this by keeping a notebook that is divided into subjects. When my son does anything, I write it in the notebook in one place - trips to museums, books read, and so forth. When I go to write the transcript at the end, I rearrange everything into courses and make up descriptive titles (Native American Studies or Ancient Literature or Writing or Chemistry) and decide how much credit they are worth. Some things are very easy - one math book = one year of math. Some things are harder, like peace studies. Not everything counts for something. There are many little bits and pieces of things that don't get counted towards any particular course.

-Nan

 

ETA - This makes it sound like I don't plan out anything beforehand, that we just do things and record them. That happens with some things, but in general, I have clearly defined goals for each child's education and each year I decide what he is going to do to work towards those goals. Then we take advantage of the serendipidous things and alter the plan at need as I discover how their reality differs from my vision. They are growing and I am trying to hit a moving target.

Edited June 27, 2011 by Nan in Mass

[angela in ohio]

Thank you all for taking the time to answer. For all of you that do a mix, how do you determine what the non-negotiables are?

 

A lot of it is determined for you if you want to meet traditional college requirements, or if your state has requirements for homeschoolers to cover. Other than that, I went by what I had learned through reading about classical education. For example, no college requires Logic or Rhetoric, but I do, and we knew wew would do a four-year comprehensive literature/history course. Math courses just follow in sequence, so those are somewhat pre-determined. And finally, I added things that I thought they would need or that are priorities in our home (extra fine arts, basic computer courses.)

 

I allowed them to choose their language to study, knowing I requred four or more years. And they are choosing to add courses based on their career plans (extra computer courses and engineering courses) and interests (even more music.) Many of their interests don't make it into our plan of study, though, because I have always encouraged them to pursue them individually instead of taking them and "making them into school." :001_smile:

[regentrude]

For all of you that do a mix, how do you determine what the non-negotiables are?

 

Basically: my own schooling/school standards in my home country; cultural idea of what constitutes an educated person; college preparedness

 

I try to model my children's educational requirements based on my own really good high school education and the education they would receive if they went to school in Germany. (I don't believe I can quite match it)

We have the goal of cultural literacy and a certain canon of what it means, traditionally, in my home culture, to be an educated person. This requires a knowledge of history, literature, foreign language, current events, basic science.

We also see first hand, as college instructors, the importance of a solid foundation in mathematics and systematic sciences - and how hard it is to fill holes at that late stage.

 

So, for my children, the non-negotiables are:

four years each of math (through calculus), sciences(physics first), English, history, same foreign language

 

I do not insist on formal fine arts, since we work arts and music education into our daily lives; PE is part of our life style as well.